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Shintoko Akahoshi
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Posted - 2006.07.12 01:42:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Britannica
Quote:
This is a position I have not considered, and as far-fetched and cynical my idea will sound, I will put it forth anyways. It might be possible to negotiate an agreement on Caldari Prime in which the world was co-governed or even handed over to Caldari control, with the understanding that it will not be used to harbor naval vessels or other forms of offensive military strength. Such an agreement already exists in Tierijev with a good deal of success.
this could be the most profitable idea for the state on the subject of regaining Caldari prime
I see little the federation may want in exchange for handing over Caldari prime. the Jovians deal directly with the state more often than the other empires even selling technology to us, we could alow the Gallente access to the technology and information in exchange of join control of caldari prime
however some of the problems with negotiating for Caldari prime are the anti-Caldari feelings Mentas Blaque has been stirring and both sides believe they have the stronger position and are unlikely to back down and compromise at this point in time
The Jove-access angle isn't a bad idea at all. See, there, Britannica? If we were in charge, we'd have this about wrapped up! 
As far as Blaque goes, I imagine anything that helps defuse Caldari-Gallente tensions can only hurt his popularity, making any negotiations of the sort a kind of self fulfilling prophecy.
The Red Mom of WarÖ
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Yuki Li
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Posted - 2006.07.12 08:41:00 -
[92]
Quote:
Funny, Yuki & Nooey, but you both sound just like Ishukone drones when you talk like that. What is it you have against them again? Too militaristic for you? See, I can make personal attacks instead of getting to the point too. /sarcasm
Yes, we have our independence. Just like a slaver hound turned out of his cage and kicked into the street.
That is not enough. Not near enough.
Too militaristic? Do you have the vaguest concept of what you're talking about? Or who to?
Our problem with Ishukone runs far deeper than that, and is far more personal.
We're no-ones drones, we're capsuleers who possess an ounce of logic, and actually have some vague concept of what is best for the Caldari people, rather than a desire to take back a piece of rock we can't defend, that'd never be handed over for fear of it being used as a military launchpoint in the heart of Gallente space.
You must be delusional, or just incredibly stupid, if you don't understand that.
The fact you compared the Caldari State to a slaver hound kicked into the street really sums you up.
Website / Forums / Recruiting |
Karl Mattar
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Posted - 2006.07.12 14:39:00 -
[93]
Once again, you miss the satire of my response. Ishukone is about as pacifist as it gets on these issues, and you follow suit.
Ishukone is like you. No cares for the harm of the past, only your own future to worry about. It's too bad the two of you have grown apart. You'd have had beautiful children.
It is unfortunate that you cannot control your temper. Civil conversation is lost on you. I certainly hope there are others in 0-SYN that have some idea how to carry on a discussion without the ad hominim attacks.
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Derran
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Posted - 2006.07.12 15:08:00 -
[94]
This is all rather amusing to me as I listen to the banter. Oh, and by the way, there is no 'civil conversation' over an action that will definitely cost the lives of millions of innocent civilians on the planet.
Assuming that the State has a desire to go after their former homeworld, is it prepared for the financial reprecussions stemming from it? No doubt the economy and infrastructure of the planet will be damaged beyond repair and will have to be rebuilt from scratch. That will cost several hundred billion. Lets not forget the increased military expenditure required to secure a planet within Federation borders. And no doubt, being the State Loyalists you all claim to be, you will not want Federation citizens living on the planet anymore. So since you will not want to keep them as hostages lest the universe potray you as terrorists which would no doubt bring CONCORD against you, you'll have to share the expense of relocating them off planet.
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Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2006.07.12 16:15:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Karl Mattar
Ishukone is like you. No cares for the harm of the past, only your own future to worry about.
If your perception of Omerta is that we do not care about what has come to pass, you really don't know us. Your illusion that a war with the Gallente would somehow be glorious, however, only proves that you don't have a care about the future. Though I must say that your ignorance doesn't surprise me, what with you having spent so much time around hardline Amarrians and all.
Learn what it means to be Caldari - www.omertasyndicate.com |
Roy Gordon
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Posted - 2006.07.12 16:40:00 -
[96]
I cannot believe I am hearing Caldari speaking like this. When did the State just roll over and allow itself to pushed into ideas being mooted here? Is it not the destiny of the Caldari to prove to the rest of the galaxy that we are its true masters? If this is not the case, why do we grow up in a state so dedicated to the military arts? I suspect some of you have been consorting with the Gallente for far too long and have become tainted with their strange 'free-thinking' ideas!
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Kailea Shandrasekkar
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Posted - 2006.07.12 19:28:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Derran
This is all rather amusing to me as I listen to the banter. Oh, and by the way, there is no 'civil conversation' over an action that will definitely cost the lives of millions of innocent civilians on the planet.
Perhaps you've missed some interesting suggestions posted over this thread, Derran. I believe there's several proposals that doesn't involve nor civil nor militar casualties - all good ol' diplomatics.
Originally by: Derran
And no doubt, being the State Loyalists you all claim to be, you will not want Federation citizens living on the planet anymore.
Perhaps you think we loyalists are xenophobes, and i feel obligated to correct this point of view. A caldari loyalist is loyal to Caldari State and its people, rules and objectives. Only those who doesn't respect these factors are subject to retaliations. I've several Gallente, Minmatar and Intaki friends; i'd love to share Caldari Prime as homeland with them.
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Yuki Li
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Posted - 2006.07.12 19:36:00 -
[98]
Quote:
Once again, you miss the satire of my response. Ishukone is about as pacifist as it gets on these issues, and you follow suit.
Ishukone is like you. No cares for the harm of the past, only your own future to worry about. It's too bad the two of you have grown apart. You'd have had beautiful children.
It is unfortunate that you cannot control your temper. Civil conversation is lost on you. I certainly hope there are others in 0-SYN that have some idea how to carry on a discussion without the ad hominim attacks.
I assure you my temper is entirely under control, this doesn't change the fact that you have absolutely no concept of what you're talking about, or what is best for the Caldari people.
As for comparing us to pacifists... Where have you been? We've fought more wars than you've even heard of, where does the word "pacifist" fit with us?
There's a difference between pacifism and straight logic. I'm suggesting the State attack elsewhere, not, not at all. If you were paying attention, rather than simply skimming past the point in preparation for your next garbage retort, you'd have caught onto that.
It's actually becoming apparant to me that the kind of blind allegiance to retaking that rock you and your alliancemates exhibit is potentially a threat to the State.
If the State wanted that rock, the State would go and take it. You assume, and you guess, and you write it all up as if it's fact. Notice they've not, after all this time.
Logic prevails.
Website / Forums / Recruiting |
Karl Mattar
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Posted - 2006.07.12 19:43:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Karl Mattar
Ishukone is like you. No cares for the harm of the past, only your own future to worry about.
If your perception of Omerta is that we do not care about what has come to pass, you really don't know us. Your illusion that a war with the Gallente would somehow be glorious, however, only proves that you don't have a care about the future. Though I must say that your ignorance doesn't surprise me, what with you having spent so much time around hardline Amarrians and all.
My perception is not of Omerta, but rather the few outspoken members I've spoken to here. My comment was directed at one of them, not the corporation as a whole. Likewise, my commentary reflects only on myself, not my corporation as a whole.
In addition, I do not recall having ever said that war with the Gallente is desired, nor have I ever stated it would be "glorious". My desire is to avoid war, and the casualties that would come with it. That is the reason I wish to remove Caldari Prime as a flashpoint for those that desire only war. A negotiated return satisfies all of these objectives. Where is the harm to the State in that?
As to my ignorance and my choice of friends, that is a personal matter. Once again you resort to hostility and character attacks when you cannot discuss the matter rationally. Such runaway emotions do not become a Caldari.
You cannot shout down those that disagree with you, nor will we go away simply because you hold your breathe and turn blue.
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Svetlana Scarlet
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Posted - 2006.07.12 21:32:00 -
[100]
Karl, as much as I respect you, and consider you a good friend, I must agree with the pilots from Omerta Syndicate. Our war of independence was just that -- and we succeeded. We have cut ourselves from the shackles that the Federation attempted to place on us. Yet, now, you and other hardline Patriots choose to voluntarily shackle ourselves to an outmoded, sentimental goal that serves no purpose but to hold us back. Why? What is left for us on Caldari Prime?
When we left our homeworld during the war, when we fled the planetary bombardment for our new destiny among the stars, we took all we could -- and all that we left behind the Gallente destroyed with a savage act that should show everyone -- including our Intaki cousins -- what the Federation is capable of when it finds it convenient to dispense with its much-ballyhooed "morality." Caldari Prime has been razed and rebuilt into yet another cookie-cutter Gallente colony world, covered with advertisements featuring half-naked simstars and catchy slogans, a veneer of affluence over their corrupt and rotting social system. There is nothing left for us there. Do not tie yourself down like a drowning man trying to carry a lead weight to shore.
The future for the Caldari State lies in a strong economy and a strong defense, and a policy of economic influence over the other star nations. The Minmatar Republic is fraying at the seams, the Gallente economy is crashing under the weight of millions upon millions of poor living off the public dole, and even our Amarr allies must deal daily with an outmoded economic policy and a restless populace. Alone, among all of them, we present a strong, united front to the outside world. Every Caldari knows his duty -- to the State, to the corporation, to the family, to himself, in that order. Any nation -- be it the Gallente, Minmatar, or even the Amarr -- that thinks they can pull the State apart from within or conquer us from outside, will learn very quickly that an external threat to the State will not be tolerated by any citizen, and that we will put aside whatever other differences we may have to make sure they will never threaten us again.
But to seek war over a single world, one which holds nothing for us anymore, is foolish. There is nothing more dangerous than a man in power who believes in such a thing as an "easy" war. The Caldari paid a heavy price for their freedom during our war of independence -- staggeringly so. Let us not so quickly forget how many died to ensure the freedom and standard of living we now enjoy. A war with the Gallente would be long and bloody -- and would leave both of us considerably weaker than when the war started, no matter who ended up "winning."
--
CAPT Svetlana Scarlet
Chief of Diplomatic Staff
Captain, CNS Silken Voice
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve |
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Nooey
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Posted - 2006.07.12 22:23:00 -
[101]
Couldn't have said it better myself Svetlana...not by a long shot.
You have my utmost respect.
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Gorion Wassenar
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Posted - 2006.07.12 22:30:00 -
[102]
The Cost to take it back, in my opinion, isn't worth it. Now, if they found some of our great ancestor's technology, that might change the equation.
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CEO of TKI
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Britannica
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Posted - 2006.07.12 22:45:00 -
[103]
just a few questions for those advocating war in order to reclaim a world the Caldari state as a whole left once and gave up control over twice
1 - how would the Caldari navy get into Luminaire without suffering casualties of hundreds of thousands at least?
2 - how would the Caldari navy defend Caldari Prime from the Gallente navy when they pull in reinforcements to drive the caldari navy out of luminarie?
3 - how would the state re-supply troops withing Luminaire after the Gallente pull in more forces to blockade the gates to and from the system?
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Kyoko Sakoda
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Posted - 2006.07.12 23:04:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Karl Mattar
In addition, I do not recall having ever said that war with the Gallente is desired, nor have I ever stated it would be "glorious".
Sure, you didn't say that, but with the way you spoke of "removing the Gallente threat" and "independence not [being] enough" and all, I never would have possibly thought that you wanted war. As you say these things, you know full well that the Federation will never hand the planet over to the State in peace time.
Learn what it means to be Caldari - www.omertasyndicate.com |
Shintoko Akahoshi
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Posted - 2006.07.12 23:07:00 -
[105]
Britannica:
1 - They wouldn't.
2 - With terrible loss of life.
3 - With terrible loss of life.
And Svetlana, please stop being so reasonable! You're screwing up my arguments to Zaitsev about your alliance!
The Red Mom of WarÖ
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Akikio Lankinen
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Posted - 2006.07.12 23:30:00 -
[106]
Let me start by making clear I'm not supporting a war over Caldari Prime, to have that out of the way.
The thing that seems strange/interesting to me is this lack of sense for the Caldari peoples soul and history shown by many. Never have I heared or read of any people in history of mankind that just root up and forget about the place of their origin, never looking back. We lived and evolved to what we are during a period of thousends and thousends of years on that "rock" I call Caldari Prime. Are we, the Caldari, the first people in history that really don't care at all...? It doesn't awake any emotions in YOU who are Caldari that the place where our people lived and evolved for so long, the only place where we can find answeres about our past is occupied by people who have no interest in preserving our history? The controll over history and how it is written gives you power. In fact, isn't that the true meaning and core of the will to power, to be able to dictate the past, the present and the future?
I don't really have answeres to serve anyone, I just had some...hmm, peaceful moments out in a belt with time to ponder. |
Karl Mattar
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Posted - 2006.07.13 00:11:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
Originally by: Karl Mattar
In addition, I do not recall having ever said that war with the Gallente is desired, nor have I ever stated it would be "glorious".
Sure, you didn't say that, but with the way you spoke of "removing the Gallente threat" and "independence not [being] enough" and all, I never would have possibly thought that you wanted war. As you say these things, you know full well that the Federation will never hand the planet over to the State in peace time.
I believe the Federation is a threat. I believe that their political environment is not moving toward any sort of openness with the State, but rather that they are moving towards a new aggressive policy, and we would be wise to anticipate possible hostilities.
I do not advocate war with the Federation. We have the strength to defend ourselves easily, but not the strength to conquer an empire three times our size. I acknowledge that the Federation will not be brought to their knees through force of arms. I fear that they do not feel the same about us.
I know that there will always be Caldari calling for war with the Federation for no other reason than Caldari Prime. I suggested a negotiated settlement for that reason. Returning Caldari Prime to State control, as a Free Trade zone and completely demilitarized, will allow both of our people to learn more of the other, and perhaps defuse situations before they come to pass.
I hope that this clarifies my position. I dislike being accused of warmongering when that is not who I am, and I would offer a hand in friendship to my comrades in Omerta. Hostility within the State is not good for any of our business.
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Shintoko Akahoshi
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Posted - 2006.07.13 04:40:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Karl Mattar
I know that there will always be Caldari calling for war with the Federation for no other reason than Caldari Prime. I suggested a negotiated settlement for that reason. Returning Caldari Prime to State control, as a Free Trade zone and completely demilitarized, will allow both of our people to learn more of the other, and perhaps defuse situations before they come to pass.
Funny, but that's one of the things that Tierijev is supposed to be. While it's certainly lucrative, it doesn't seem to have done much for Gallente-Caldari relations. That's an issue that really has to be addressed before anything else happens.
Originally by: Karl Mattar
...and I would offer a hand in friendship to my comrades in Omerta.
Even me? I'm a big one on love and friendship, everyone knows that! Now I feel all warm and fuzzy on the insides!
The Red Mom of WarÖ
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Yuki Li
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Posted - 2006.07.13 11:42:00 -
[109]
Caldari Prime does indeed mean more than the average rock, but the value many place on it is far far too high. Sentimentality isn't a value that's gotten the Caldari State where it is now, nor do we need it for the future when considering matters such as this.
Website / Forums / Recruiting |
Jainara Greywind
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Posted - 2006.07.13 13:27:00 -
[110]
Some time ago I would be among those praising Ms. Spitfire for her unrivaled ability to shout æDie Gallente dogsÆ at any corner she finds. But spending some time enjoying the tranquility that only the capsule can provide I have come to appreciate a slightly different approach.
Caldari Prime itself isnÆt worth the effort needed to take it and hold for any reasonable time. While being a strong symbol for our people, it can offer few benefits for us now to compensate for the resources the Nation needs to spend on the war-effort. With all those years having passed, itÆs not Caldari anymore. As my corp-friends have mentioned already, we had left it to forge a new history for ourselves, leaving our Federation past behind. Reclaiming Caldari Prime now is chasing ghosts of things long past. I have a few of my own, but I wonÆt ever put the State at risk because of some personal affairs. ThatÆs what makes us better and some likely to succeed than Gallenteans actually û weÆre State first, private stuff second.
I do believe however that warÆs at hand, and it wonÆt be Caldari whoÆll fire the first round. The new president will need something to unite the Federation, a common cause that will make anything else, including the ways he managed to achieve power, fade from public view. Intaki issue may be the good reason, with Caldari involvement into the freedom movement as clear as it gets. There will be war, if that IÆm certain.
And when the time comes, I will do my utmost best to help the State win this war and make it stronger than it ever was before. ItÆs all about price and profit here actually û we all as a nation will invest our resources and lives to receive the return for our investments in the form of even greater State than it is now. It may cost us much, but will profit us tenfold.
And god forbid us make needless sacrifices for transient gains. We will have Caldari Prime back anyway in the end û after slowly and purposefully crashing anything Gallente. No need to rush, I say.
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Silent Death - Free Delivery |
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Kailea Shandrasekkar
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Posted - 2006.07.13 15:07:00 -
[111]
Unfortunately i'm forced to agree with Jainara; war is at hand, and the first shot will be Gallente.
Unless they puts to work their unique ability to silence rabid dogs while keeping their democratical face. Then we'll see a GalNET news about the natural death of the president after visiting an orchard and discovering he was fatally allergic to orchid pollen, or something like that.
But that, i guess, is something to discuss on another thread.
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Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.13 19:37:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Nooey
Couldn't have said it better myself Svetlana...not by a long shot.
You have my utmost respect.
I appreciate that, despite what has been said between us in the past. I would like to think that despite your heritage, your service to Omerta, and the State, is honest. If it is, then you would do well to remember that I -- and the rest of the Reserve certainly, and, I would hope, the rest of the Directive, though I cannot speak for them -- hold the safety and security of the State and its citizens as our foremost duty. It is for this reason that I left the Ishukone enclave on New Caldari where I was born to serve in the Navy, and for this reason that I left the private ventures I was involved in after my time in the Navy -- despite the fact that they were rather lucrative -- to reenlist with the Reserve.
To Ms. Li, Ms. Sakoda, Nooey, and the other pilots of the Omerta Syndicate, I will say this. If you truly support the State and believe in preserving it through whatever may come in the future, then we are allies focused on the same goal -- at most, we only have a minor quibble over how to best go about that. I would hope, in the future, that we both -- I admit I am not entirely blameless for any squabbles we have had -- can work together more closely to oppose those who would threaten the security and sovereignty of the State, from both without and within. Recent incidents have me more convinced than ever that that kind of cooperation is necessary to protect the State -- and ourselves -- from those with their own more selfish agendas....
--
CAPT Svetlana Scarlet
Chief of Diplomatic Staff
Captain, CNS Silken Voice
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve |
Roy Gordon
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Posted - 2006.07.14 16:06:00 -
[113]
I find it very odd that the recent Gallente incursions into Sobaseki, including their building a jumpgate in that system, have not met with a response from the State. It was fortuitous that I happened to be in Sobaseki at the time and was able, not without some great difficulty I'll admit, to remove all trace of the Gallente from Sobaseki.
I believe there is an old saying which runs something like this- 'The best form of defence is attack'. Have any of you citizens not heard of the 'defence in depth' concept? What did they teach you lot in Military school?
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.14 18:42:00 -
[114]
The State knows its own future best.
It is merely our place to serve and wait.
--------
Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk
[04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
[07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Kailea Shandrasekkar
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:31:00 -
[115]
...and strike swiftly when we're asked to.
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Strikeclone
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 04:54:00 -
[116]
We are a warrior people, without our pride, self respect, and our honour what is there left?
The fact that so many died defending homeworld, and then more died to hold the line so that we could evacuate homeworld when our position became untenable says to me that homeworld is a bit more than just a random world amoung billions of random worlds.
IMO homeworld is the single most potent symbol of Caldari culture, spirit, and defiance in the face of tyranny.
If we allow this hundread year old slight to go unresolved i believe it will send a signal to every potential aggressor that whats ours is theirs for the taking.
Handled correctly this issues could become the springboard for improving relations with the gallente.
I am afraid that those who are not true Caldari can not just wish this issue away, and cant claim that its irrelevant.
But it is clear that whilst the gallente have the rable rousing officials we have our fair share of "peace in our time" appeasers. Both should be put against the wall and shot so they can not contaminate the world with their progeny.
Strikeclone
Celer Et Audax
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 05:34:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Strikeclone
IMO homeworld is the single most potent symbol of Caldari culture, spirit, and defiance in the face of tyranny.
Glad you're there to fight for truth, justice, and the Caldari way....by joining a Gallente-led pirate corporation.  I think perhaps you are not in the best position to be trying to tell other Caldari what should be done.
--
CAPT Svetlana Scarlet
Chief of Diplomatic Staff
Captain, CNS Silken Voice
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve |
Nooey
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.07.17 07:02:00 -
[118]
Yes, congratulations Strikeclown, your hypocrisy just managed to reach the lofy heights that previously only your idiocy could.
____ |
Strikeclone
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 11:13:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Strikeclone on 17/07/2006 11:13:27
Originally by: Svetlana Scarlet
Glad you're there to fight for truth, justice, and the Caldari way....by joining a Gallente-led pirate corporation. I think perhaps you are not in the best position to be trying to tell other Caldari what should be done.
Truth and justice lmao where does that feature in the Caldari way? or the CAIN way for that matter. I am doing what we true Caldari do best in these troubled times im keeping my skills up fighting enemies of me and enemies of the State, and your doing what plastic Caldari do, talking the talk, then crawling around with only a vague ancestral memory of walking the walk.
Strikeclone
Celer Et Audax
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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Strikeclone
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 11:19:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Strikeclone on 17/07/2006 11:20:58
Originally by: Nooey
Yes, congratulations Strikeclown, your hypocrisy just managed to reach the lofy heights that previously only your idiocy could.
Ahh nooby swallowed another gallente dictionary I hear. yaada yaada yaada, blah blah blah, so how do you like my nooby,, *coughs* nooey impression so far?
I be Shemar and his starlets wish they had so many groupies as I do.
See unlike you I can fight, unlike you I am a Caldari and unlike you i can sit next to windows without feeling the urge to lick them.
They say trade and imergration are the biggest threat to any culture, well we buy your gallente onions and we allow you to live, at all let alone within the boundaries. And this is the terrible price we pay.
Anyhow must dash I have some gallente pigdogs to educate in the art of instantaneous travel.
I have grown weary of the cowards who reside in my beloved State and so I feel the need to leave for a spell to remind myself that their is life after the foul smell of traitors and sycophants.
Strikeclone
Celer Et Audax
Caldari Prime will be ours again!
Hoist Battle Ensigns
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