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Bubba Styles
Bubba Inc.
0
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Posted - 2014.06.24 16:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
I know it's probably been debated before but I'm looking to upgrade my Raven and unsure which one is better Raven Navy Issue, Rattlesnake, or Golem. Currently I'm mostly running Level 4 missions and can do them without a lot of problems in a Raven. I have about 25 million SP and great missile/shield skills and good drone skills. Also I have an alt that has specialized in in salvaging so the bonuses on the Marauders isn't all that useful to me. Checking prices it looks like the RNI and Rattlesnake are about half the price of the Golem so is it worth the extra cost? |
Izzii
Kraaka Flyr
0
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Posted - 2014.06.24 16:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Some ppl swear by the CNR for missions, some the RS. All depends on what and how you like to play.
The DPS on CNR is almost equal to a Golem with the right skills. Torp Golem shreds L4s, so does a CNR (but at twice the ammo cost).
So its all a matter of preference, I myself run a Torp Golem and im happy with that, on grid, drop Mobile trac, and go to town. Since u have a dedicated salvage alt, id bring him and drop the Mobile tract and possibly fit somet else in the free highslots. |
Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
241
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Posted - 2014.06.24 18:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fleet typhoon is my preference personally from missile/drone platforms. Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
0rch1d
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
16
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Posted - 2014.06.24 22:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
The accessibility (training time and cost) of a CNR + its sheer DPS and damage application makes it more attractive than the Golem, especially if you aren't looking to salvage as you go, or if you're already happily using an alt for that.
Then again, bastion mode is pretty killer, but the emphasis should be on bringing more gank than tank, and perhaps you aren't interested in running TPs on a Golem.
It's a very close to call, tbh. Unless you're looking to employ a specific style of play, then on paper and in general terms both ships can easily lay claim to the Gold Standard of level 4 mission running.
Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same as the above two in terms of DPS.
For me, however, the CNR's bonuses seal the deal. |
Bubba Styles
Bubba Inc.
0
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Posted - 2014.06.24 22:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think I'll go with the CNR for now. While it'll be cheaper for ammo than the Golem it's half the cost to fit. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
76
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Posted - 2014.06.24 22:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
[Golem, pew pew]
4x Torpedo Launcher II (Scourge Rage Torpedo) Bastion Module I
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II 100MN Microwarpdrive II Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster 3x Target Painter II
4x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Fits at all L5.
79k EHP, 2740 dps omnitank. Rage torps out to 44.5km. Faction torps out to 53.5km
9252 raw alpha with Fury.
1.8b total. If you swap the BCS for T2 the price drops 400m but you'll need a 5% CPU implant.
I would like to say that I've never actually sat in a Golem before (used to be a CNR L4 guy), but hot damn, this EFT fitting is making me real anxious to get back to civilzation and to my gaming rig to test it out. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1212
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Posted - 2014.06.24 23:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
0rch1d wrote:The accessibility (training time and cost) of a CNR + its sheer DPS and damage application makes it more attractive than the Golem, especially if you aren't looking to salvage as you go, or if you're already happily using an alt for that.
Then again, bastion mode is pretty killer, but the emphasis should be on bringing more gank than tank, and perhaps you aren't interested in running TPs on a Golem.
It's a very close to call, tbh. Unless you're looking to employ a specific style of play, then on paper and in general terms both ships can easily lay claim to the Gold Standard of level 4 mission running.
Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same league as the above two in terms of DPS.
For me, however, the CNR's bonuses seal the deal. Actually the RS claims the DPS crown now. The Golem and CNR are tied with an effective 8 launchers each. Unless fitting a 5th BCS to the CNR it won't have more DPS as the Golem should easily be able to fit 4 without sacrifice. If you are fitting a 5th BCS the difference is negligible due to stacking penalties.
The only real advantage of the CNR is the explosion radius of the missiles themselves. That said the TP bonus on the Golem outperforms it in damage application with 3 TP's if I recall correctly. Combined with the fact that 5 second TP's make juggling them no longer an issue and the explosion velocity bonus makes the Golem IMHO the damage application king of the options mentioned.
Then there is the 1500DPS RS kinda off doing it's own thing. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
951
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 23:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bubba Styles wrote:I think I'll go with the CNR for now. While it'll be cheaper for ammo than the Golem it's half the cost to fit.
I recommend the CNR for starters. You can still fit two TP and a decent tank cheap. Target painters don't get a bonus on the CNR but they still help. I think it does about about the same applied damage as the Golem. The Golem might have an advantage on smaller targets due to the TP bonus but it's not that much.
I'm not sure where you get the half the cost to fit from. A CM Golem doesn't have to be bling fit because you can avoid most incoming damage by keeping range with a MJD. I don't lke the limited range of regular torps and long range torps do less damage than CM. Back in the day a CM Golem would make me cringe but with the CM buff and all I think it's the way to go.
Be careful with bling fits in SOE systems. Both my Golem and CNR are T2 except a cheap deadspace shield booster. Even 3 faction BCS make you worth ganking with Catalysts.
I don't know about the new RS but I hear it's awesome. |
Conjaq
Cause For Concern Easily Excited
9
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Posted - 2014.06.24 23:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:0rch1d wrote:The accessibility (training time and cost) of a CNR + its sheer DPS and damage application makes it more attractive than the Golem, especially if you aren't looking to salvage as you go, or if you're already happily using an alt for that.
Then again, bastion mode is pretty killer, but the emphasis should be on bringing more gank than tank, and perhaps you aren't interested in running TPs on a Golem.
It's a very close to call, tbh. Unless you're looking to employ a specific style of play, then on paper and in general terms both ships can easily lay claim to the Gold Standard of level 4 mission running.
Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same league as the above two in terms of DPS.
For me, however, the CNR's bonuses seal the deal. Actually the RS claims the DPS crown now. The Golem and CNR are tied with an effective 8 launchers each. Unless fitting a 5th BCS to the CNR it won't have more DPS as the Golem should easily be able to fit 4 without sacrifice. If you are fitting a 5th BCS the difference is negligible due to stacking penalties. The only real advantage of the CNR is the explosion radius of the missiles themselves. That said the TP bonus on the Golem outperforms it in damage application with 3 TP's if I recall correctly. Combined with the fact that 5 second TP's make juggling them no longer an issue and the explosion velocity bonus makes the Golem IMHO the damage application king of the options mentioned. Then there is the 1500DPS RS kinda off doing it's own thing.
I'm not so sure the rattler takes the crown, because the applied dps is much lower. You basicly have launchers who has no bonus to the application of dps, and the drones neither has range nor tracking.
I still call for the Golem as the superior ship, it has the same bonuses as the RNI + a few goodies, like microjump drive, which makes tanking trivial.
oh and target painters to...
Golem all the way!
Edit; The golem also has explosion velocity to cruise/golems... Not sure why everyone says the RNI has superior bonuses when it actually has exactly the same as the Golem. |
Locutus Mind
Viziam Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2014.06.24 23:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
lol no love for the old rattler. I personally enjoy the versatility of this hull, whether you enjoy drones or torps you dide how to fly. |
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Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
78
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Posted - 2014.06.25 00:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Locutus Mind wrote:lol no love for the old rattler. I personally enjoy the versatility of this hull, whether you enjoy drones or torps you dide how to fly.
I do love the ability to torp the BS and send drones after frigs + cruisers, especially with the uber buff to drone HP + damage, but i'm a sucker for single-damage platforms. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
318
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Rattlesnake is L4 king. Nothing else compares when done well. Latest expansion/update changed the game for the old RS. Solid 25% DPS buff. After already having one a few updates ago where it got 30% more due to DDA's and cruise missile buffs. Constantly landible DPS going from just over 900 to just over 1500. The RS has no competition.
Takes a ton of SP/isk/constant adjusting. Most effort and most reward. It is the opposite of the lazy afk drone ship it once was. No ship will make you work harder in the missions but it achieves max possible results.
1733 cruise/gecko with implants is insane with the way it controls landible dps with 2 weapon systems. Still having a fat tank no cap issues and a MWD.
They work great as MJD ships now too. Either fit style works. MJD can save a bit of isk compared to MWD version. |
stoicfaux
5024
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Golem with 4 TP + 2 Rigor Is == CNR with 3 Faction TPs and 3 T2 Rigs.
In theory, the Rattlesnake can put out more DPS, but, as noted by others, the DPS application takes a non-trivial bite out of that extra DPS.
Personally, I prefer the 4 TP Golem.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
452
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Conjaq wrote:Edit; The golem also has explosion velocity to cruise/golems... Not sure why everyone says the RNI has superior bonuses when it actually has exactly the same as the Golem. RNI has an explosion radius bonus, while Golem has an explosion velocity bonus. Due to the way the missile formula works, an explosion radius bonus is better than an explosion velocity bonus.
But, the Golem makes up for it with the TP bonus.
However, the Golem has the downside of being more heavily affected by defender missiles. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1213
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 01:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:However, the Golem has the downside of being more heavily affected by defender missiles. How so? Both should have pretty similar ROF and volley damage and have the same missile velocity bonus. Actually bastion increases missile velocity so whenever you are in it i would think you would have slightly less average loss to defenders.
Edit: Derp NVM, HP of 4 missiles vs HP of 8, duh. |
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 01:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
0rch1d wrote:
Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same league as the above two in terms of DPS.
Please tell me how you get 1600 DPS out of a CNR or Golem I have to know
If you put your cruises on the battleships and have your sentries shoot the frigates, and meet in the middle, I dont see how there's room for doubt. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
951
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 01:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:0rch1d wrote:
Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same league as the above two in terms of DPS.
Please tell me how you get 1600 DPS out of a CNR or Golem I have to know If you put your cruises on the battleships and have your sentries shoot the frigates, and meet in the middle, I dont see how there's room for doubt.
I haven't flown the new RS but the fits I've seen that do 1600 DPS use torps.
There's EFT DPS and effective DPS. With the range of torps on a RS you're going to spend more time burning to targets than shooting them. Not even getting into how terrible they are at anything smaller than a BC.
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0rch1d
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
16
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Posted - 2014.06.25 03:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
< -------- CNR elitist.
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Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
187
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 09:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
I too am interested in how you get 1700 dps with cruises. all v, implants, faction damage mods, t2 rig, gecko and fury I get around 1470dps.
that said with smart usage of the dual weapon system I can see how the rattler will beat out other ships. it is however an active flying ship so if you want semi afk then it wont work for you. if you are bored with lv4 it can be more fun to have stuff to do, active flying.
also since less than half dps comes from missiles defender missiles arent so bad too and the bonus to the gecko hp means its like a high dps HAC flying wingman for you that you dont have to recall often or can just remote rep. |
Narla Asketa
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
0
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Posted - 2014.06.25 10:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
With all V skills and 3% implants and augmented heavy drones it-¦s easy to get above 1700 out of the rattler. 3 BCs (2 CN) and 3 DDA II do the trick. Most people still put 4 DDA II on the rattler or forget that is has 5 launchers now and don-¦t realise that a lot of potential DPS goes to waste. Add 2 Rigors II and 2 PWNAGE on top and the applied dmg isn-¦t too bad as well. (1 Volley of fury cruises is enough to shred any painted BC) Paired with the selective dmg ( even the missiles can always shoot at least a secondary resist hole) and the frigate shredding of sentries/geckos it is definitely on top of the PvE heap in the BS class atm. |
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Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
187
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 12:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
sorry you are right, with kinetic or thermal missiles you do get 1700dps. need to specify because I only later realized I had mjolniers loaded. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
628
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 12:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
0rch1d wrote:Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same league as the above two in terms of DPS.
Don't listen to this one. He obviously doesn't know the Rattlesnake can kick any other missile BS in the teeth DPS wise and still tank the Death Star.
The Golem, CNR, Raven, and SNI all do the same raw missile dps. The difference is application and drones. So it comes down to what you prefer, the utility of the Golem, the price of the Raven, the alpha of the CNR, or the passive tank of the SNI/RS.
Protip, RS can Dominix its way through L4s if you wanted to.
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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 13:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
IIshira wrote:Hakaari Inkuran wrote:0rch1d wrote:
Some folks swear by the rattler, no doubt, but it just isn't in the same league as the above two in terms of DPS.
Please tell me how you get 1600 DPS out of a CNR or Golem I have to know If you put your cruises on the battleships and have your sentries shoot the frigates, and meet in the middle, I dont see how there's room for doubt. I haven't flown the new RS but the fits I've seen that do 1600 DPS use torps. There's EFT DPS and effective DPS. With the range of torps on a RS you're going to spend more time burning to targets than shooting them. Not even getting into how terrible they are at anything smaller than a BC. Nah, put hardwires in like you're supposed to and you've got 1600 DPS with cruises ez. Don't need torps. Are you discounting T2 ammo? Because you are supposed to be using T2 ammo against BS's. |
Gulch P13
Victorious Secret. Cult of War
5
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Posted - 2014.06.25 16:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
I have flown all of these ships except for the Golem for L4's. The Rattlesnake is a beast with sentries or a Gecko, and IMO it does L4's faster than the Raven, CNR, and the SNI. Of course, it all depends on how you fit it, but you won't be disappointed with either of these ships as they can all do the job quite well. |
Marc Callan
Nuclear Manhattan Limited
452
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 16:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
The Rattlesnake's a first-class choice, but it does demand a skill set that's distinct from the CNR or the Golem. Unless you can use sentry drones effectively, you're probably better off with the pure missile boats. "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt |
Qalix
Four Pillars Brothers of Tangra
281
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 19:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
The only real difference between Raven, CNR, and Golem is tank. CNR has better alpha than a raven, but has the same DPS.
Right now I'm using two characters with t2 fit cruise ravens to run Hordes/Sanctums in about 19 to 21 mins. I've also used them in tandem to run epic arcs. They're cheaper and I never worry about getting ganked (they paid for themselves years ago). They're not juicy targets in the first place. Plus, as t1 ships, the insurance is good. The tank is more than sufficient with good range control. I rarely get taken past half shields, and every time I do, its because I screwed up range control.
Golems, IMO, have no real use if you don't need the massive tanking abilities. With 2 rigors, 1 painter, and precision cruise missiles, I take out most frigs in one volley, occasionally two for the tankier kind. More painters/better painters is nice, but in practice, they're an unnecessary benefit. Perhaps with a different rig setup they make more sense. Tractors are pointless in the age of mobile tractors. They're just too damned expensive.
CNRs have better volley and I'm thinking about using them to speed up completion of sites. They're not hugely more expensive, but they are a tastier target. Better tank, but I don't need more tank, so not a benefit for me personally.
Flying solo, the extra tank would come in handy, but without extra gank, it's going to take so much longer. In terms of ISK over time, two pilots is better than one, even with PLEX costs figured in. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
541
|
Posted - 2014.06.26 02:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
my preference is a mjd auto-targeting cruise CNR, but hey I'm lazy. Imo the application bonus makes it slightly better than the CNR. although I still need to try the new Rattlesnake, might be more interesting as the cruise go for closest and the sentries go for battleships, although drone range issues and stuff. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
541
|
Posted - 2014.06.26 02:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:passive tank of the SNI/RS.
ewww passive tanking You can trust me, I have a monocole |
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
70
|
Posted - 2014.06.26 05:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
Golem wins and there is nothing to debate about.
while torps are all fun and stuff, they are useful only in like damzel or similar missions. cruises hit up to max lock range 112+ ? while you slowboat or mjd to gate, cruizes let you blitz if you feel lazy.
1100dps @ 100+km what's there to debate about? also you can fit ******** permatank on golem and go afk whenever you need...
dont even dare to compare golem to rattler, rni, rns - it's just stupid and you have no idea. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
188
|
Posted - 2014.06.26 07:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
CanI haveyourstuff wrote:Golem wins and there is nothing to debate about.
while torps are all fun and stuff, they are useful only in like damzel or similar missions. cruises hit up to max lock range 112+ ? while you slowboat or mjd to gate, cruizes let you blitz if you feel lazy.
1100dps @ 100+km what's there to debate about? also you can fit ******** permatank on golem and go afk whenever you need...
real life situation:
golem: jump in, 3 volley BS-es, blap smaller stuff with TP's + drones and activate next gate! while giving no fucks at all about tank... rattler or any other missile ship: many volleys more, weak tank.. dmg application not as good, fiddle with drones, pick up dem sentrys.. ooooh noway.
yes rattler can do 1600dps with implants and gardes.. so what? it's effective dps per whole mission is lower than golem that is one of the most pants on head ******** things I have ever heard.
drone dps is normally very well applied and with two t2 application rigs and two tps even the missile dps will be applied really well. best thing is you can focus missiles on bs and drone/s on cruisers/frigs. |
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