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Evei Shard
Shard Industries
333
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 21:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
adjective adjective: infinite
1. limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
Over my years I've seen, read, and heard plenty about things that are infinite. Space, time, dimension, and so on. Some of it through fictional stories, others through scientific theory (which may or may not be debunked at this point), and so on.
It would seem to me that if any given aspect of our existence is truly infinite, then everything is not only possible, but guaranteed to happen. Every possible iteration of existence would be played out at some point along the line of whatever it is that is infinite (be it time, or any given dimension, or some other aspect of our universe. If, for instance, time is an infinite dimension, it would seem that even entropy cannot win.
If someone could point me to literature (factual or even theoretical) that explains why this is incorrect, I'd appreciate it. Right now I'm having a difficult time seeing how the infinite can exist without everything being cyclical, repeating forever, even down to my writing of this post. Profit favors the prepared |
Marsha Mallow
1149
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 21:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm not sure we have the capacity to understand 'infinity'. A lot of the theological debates I've seen attempt to address it but imply it is beyond our comprehension. Science seems more engaged with defining the limits or boundaries. It's a wierd concept that seems to overlap philosophy and mathematic/physics - I've seen it crop up in reading.
Maybe it's just an overused or misunderstood word. I'd be interested to see how other cultures define(d) it, the history of the concept, and what the nuances of 'infinity' in those cultures are/were. TO THE RIPARDMOBILE! |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
2049
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 21:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quote: I'm having a difficult time seeing how the infinite can exist without everything being cyclical, repeating forever, even down to my writing of this post.
Infinity does not exclude the probability of you doing circles, but your next circle will be somewhere else at the time. Well, it looks more like a sine wave really but it is from a different point of view, not yours. When weapons, technology, and economies mature faster than the leadership culture entrusted with them, disaster ensues. http://i.minus.com/ibeZ0sJewvDMBN.gif =ƒÿü |
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
333
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 21:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Quote: I'm having a difficult time seeing how the infinite can exist without everything being cyclical, repeating forever, even down to my writing of this post. Infinity does not exclude the probability of you doing circles, but your next circle will be somewhere else at the time. Well, it looks more like a sine wave really.
Doesn't this assume, though, that time, as a dimension, is also infinite?
If time itself is infinite, does it not stand to reason that we will all eventually be alive again at some point?
Infinity, as I understand it, seems to imply that all variations exist at one point or another.
If time is not infinite, but height is (choose a random direction and call it "up"), eventually, if you travel far enough along that infinite dimension, you would come across a universe exactly like this one, but with the exception of your presence in it. Profit favors the prepared |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
14727
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 21:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
There is a Yo Momma joke in here somewhere.. just waiting to be born...
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
2051
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 22:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Quote:does it not stand to reason that we will all eventually be alive again at some point? It depends on how do you define life. When weapons, technology, and economies mature faster than the leadership culture entrusted with them, disaster ensues. http://i.minus.com/ibeZ0sJewvDMBN.gif =ƒÿü |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
111100
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 22:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
All your answers (as best as can be figured) are right here:
Rudy Rucker "Infinity and the Mind"
I've read it twice. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
2051
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 22:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Quote:you would come across a universe exactly like this one Why? I don't have to go anywhere to experience it. I am in it. Forever. It has no boundaries, it is limitless, remember? When weapons, technology, and economies mature faster than the leadership culture entrusted with them, disaster ensues. http://i.minus.com/ibeZ0sJewvDMBN.gif =ƒÿü |
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
333
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 22:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
That looks interesting. Thank you. Profit favors the prepared |
Commissar Kate
Team Evil
63743
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Posted - 2014.06.24 23:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Human stupidity seems to be infinite. People, who talk, don't know. People, who know, don't talk.
My Fanclub || Unlock all racial clothing |
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Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
3313
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Posted - 2014.06.25 00:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Quote: I'm having a difficult time seeing how the infinite can exist without everything being cyclical, repeating forever, even down to my writing of this post. Infinity does not exclude the probability of you doing circles, but your next circle will be somewhere else at the time. Well, it looks more like a sine wave really but it is from a different point of view, not yours.
That's brilliant Bagrat. And it makes me want to discuss something I'm really fascinated with, which is the physics of acoustics. Especially, in music. 'Harmonic' waveforms, "overtones" created by waves, transference of acoustic waves between different materials. And why does the brain find an A note (440 hz) followed by an E note (659.25 hz) pleasant, but not very pleasant if the A is followed by a B note (493.88 hz)?
Anyway, sorry, for another discussion someday. "Were [sic] not your monkey and so what?"-á -The Sex Pistols (2006) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
19315
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Nil mortifi sine lucre |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
7462
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
/thread "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Commissar Kate
Team Evil
63779
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
I was gonna quote that but could not remember exactly how it was. People, who talk, don't know. People, who know, don't talk.
My Fanclub || Unlock all racial clothing |
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
336
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 01:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Commissar Kate wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. I was gonna quote that but could not remember exactly how it was.
If any given thing, be it time, distance, temperature, or otherwise is infinite, then stupidity is also, potentially, infinite, but only because the number of humans would also be infinite. A given individual cannot be infinitely stupid. It is like saying a vacuum can contain less than zero air. At some point, a person could be determined to be completely and utterly stupid, but that's where it ends.
Profit favors the prepared |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
8354
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 04:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Every given moment of eternal past would need to have occurred to reach this point in time. So, it cannot be infinite in the finite sense. I would think that the infinite is such as a loop of sorts, or a singularity, of both time and space, and being at all possible points of moments within that loop. From that loop, a finite splinter can occur, the infinite and the finite co-existing yet separate; connected at a point from the infinite.
You are looking for "science" but science can't exist, as the scientific process requires observation. So you are left with theory or philosophy. |
Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
1997
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 04:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Maybe you've heard about that saying, that, choosing a suitable encoding, we could find Shakespeare's works encoded in the decimal places of pi. Or really any other conceivable texts. This assumption is also because of infinitiy, as pi has an ininite amount of decimal places without recurring patterns/cycles (as all transcendental numbers), but assuming the decimal digits of pi follow a somewhat random distribution.
This is not proven, however. Imagine you construct a number the following way:
0.10110111011110111110... and so on. After each 0 you add one more 1 than there were after the previous 0. Let it never stop.
Now you have a number with infinitely many decimal places, and without a repeating pattern/cycle, in those decimal places.
Yet you'll never find Shakespeare's texts anywhere there.
Or a very simple example: imagine "counting to infinity": 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... and so on. Even though there are infinitely many numbers you'll never reach a negative number.
Infinity doesn't mean everything will happen eventually. It "only" means everything [b]possible[/] will happen eventually.
So you see, even if time is infinite, that doesn't mean entropy will win.
Now, when it is about every possible iteration of existence: That's actually what the many worlds interpretation of quantum theory states, I believe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation That there are enough parallel universes so that there actually is one for every imaginable and possible state the universe could be in. |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
8354
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 04:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
And if you really want to bend your brain about time, study the singularity. Study the event horizon. Take a ride into black hole theory. Melt your brain on that for a few short decades. From there, you can get the idea that space and time has limitation, and the rules are not set in stone. I would conclude that we have our time and space, and that there are other forms of time and space that can exist beyond our own existence. But what we know of all there is, is only our present location wherever that may be. Personally, I think we are in a sort of bubble. But not a bubble of infinite bubbles, a unique finite bubble within the infinite verse. |
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
336
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 05:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:Maybe you've heard about that saying, that, choosing a suitable encoding, we could find Shakespeare's works encoded in the decimal places of pi. Or really any other conceivable texts. This assumption is also because of infinitiy, as pi has an ininite amount of decimal places without recurring patterns/cycles (as all transcendental numbers), but assuming the decimal digits of pi follow a somewhat random distribution. Edit: better saying "behave like a random sequence". This is not proven, however. Imagine you construct a number the following way: 0.10110111011110111110... and so on. After each 0 you add one more 1 than there were after the previous 0. Let it never stop. Now you have a number with infinitely many decimal places, and without a repeating pattern/cycle, in those decimal places. Yet you'll never find Shakespeare's texts anywhere there. Or a very simple example: imagine "counting to infinity": 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... and so on. Even though there are infinitely many numbers you'll never reach a negative number. Infinity doesn't mean everything will happen eventually. It "only" means everything possible will happen eventually. So you see, even if time is infinite, that doesn't mean entropy will lose. Now, when it is about every possible iteration of existence: That's actually what the many worlds interpretation of quantum theory states, I believe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretationThat there are enough parallel universes so that there actually is one for every imaginable and possible state the universe could be in.
Thank you. That adds a lot of clarity to it.
On a side note about the quantum theory.. that's sort of what got me started down this path. The question came to mind: "if every possible universe exists, does that mean one exists in which multiple states do not exist?"
It's silly stuff, but when one can't sleep, and when stupid internet issues make it impossible to play Eve.... Profit favors the prepared |
Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
1997
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 05:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:[...]
Thank you. That adds a lot of clarity to it.
On a side note about the quantum theory.. that's sort of what got me started down this path. The question came to mind: "if every possible universe exists, does that mean one exists in which multiple states do not exist?"
It's silly stuff, but when one can't sleep, and when stupid internet issues make it impossible to play Eve....
Related I don't really know how accurate the explanation in that video is, but I found it interesting to watch. |
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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3157
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 06:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
When I first encountered the difference between countable and uncountable infinities, my mind was blown. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=346564 - a proposal to overhaul the Logistics skill https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Mikael Menethil
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 12:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
This might be of assistance:
"We now know (as of 2013) that the universe is flat with only a 0.4% margin of error. This suggests that the Universe is infinite in extent; however, since the Universe has a finite age, we can only observe a finite volume of the Universe. All we can truly conclude is that the Universe is much larger than the volume we can directly observe."
NASA http://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html
Recycling and repeating indefinitely sounds right to me.
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
111102
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 13:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:When I first encountered the difference between countable and uncountable infinities, my mind was blown.
This is covered extensively in my Rudy Rucker book recommendation on Page 1.
Anyone care for an Aleph ???? "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters Disturbed Acquaintance
9371
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 14:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
i get confused with the ideas of the universe and space and how they are used. the way i thought it was, is that the universe is everything that happened/came out of with the big bang and has limits because it is only so old. but space, the empty void that the universe resides in...is infinite.
thinking too hard about this stuff sends my head just spinning. like the rules that something can't come from nothing. if that's true then space has always been here. the universe has always been here. in some form or another. or if you subscribe to religion and believe an all powerful deity is responsible...who created the deity? all things must have an origin. or do they?
i suppose space would have always had to be here regardless. one way or the other. because it is literally nothing right? the very definition of nothing. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
111102
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 14:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
Eurydia Vespasian wrote:i get confused with the ideas of the universe and space and how they are used. the way i thought it was, is that the universe is everything that happened/came out of with the big bang and has limits because it is only so old. but space, the empty void that the universe resides in...is infinite.
thinking too hard about this stuff sends my head just spinning. like the rules that something can't come from nothing. if that's true then space has always been here. the universe has always been here. in some form or another. or if you subscribe to religion and believe an all powerful deity is responsible...who created the deity? all things must have an origin. or do they?
i suppose space would have always had to be here regardless. one way or the other. because it is literally nothing right? the very definition of nothing.
This is just opinion:
The "space" that contains our universe is indeed infinitely old. The matter and energy (photons) from the big bang, are so far finite in age, but infinite in quantity. As more photons reach us from the nether regions, our view of the universe gets larger. It's all there, we just cannot see that far yet as the photons have not reached us.
I need to lay down for awhile............ "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
854
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 15:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
I thought that space and time had a beginning with the big bang, but because of the as yet misunderstood dark energy, the universe is expected to expand to "infinity", of course it is also theorized that dark energy will tear the universe apart down to the last subatomic particle, so there must be an end.
Also we will never be able to see how big the universe really is. It's not a question of the light having enough time to reach us, it's that there is a visual barrier to the beginning of the universe from a time when the universe was just a hot plasma that light cannot penetrate. The Cosmic Microwave Background is as far as we will ever see no matter how long we wait or how good our telescopes get. There is also the fact that as the universe increasingly expans with greater and greater speed, the galaxies furthest away from us will actually be accelerating away from us faster than the speed of light, so as time goes on more and more of the universe will become invisible to us and it will feel smaller even though it is getting bigger. You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam.-á |
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
158
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 15:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:There is a Yo Momma joke in here somewhere.. just waiting to be born...
Yo momma's so fat that, when she steps on a scale, the readout only shows the twin loops of the infinity symbol?
In regards to the original post, I find that infinity is a difficult topic to ponder in any aspect, whether it's time, space, or something else. How does one truly consider the infinite? Our minds are finite things, so the best description of infinity that we will ever be able to conceive of will, of necessity, be an abstraction.
Also, when considered beyond a certain point, it sometimes gives me chills. |
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12031
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 16:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
http://www.science20.com/the_greatest_science_mysteries/the_infinite_multiverse_and_monkeys_typing_pi-138060
Indefinite is so much easier to manage. If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg |
jason hill
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
616
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 18:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
I believe it cos buzz lightyear said it ...TOOOOO INFINITY AAAAAAND BEYOOOOOND !
so it must be true ok !
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Evei Shard
Shard Industries
336
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 18:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ila Dace wrote:http://www.science20.com/the_greatest_science_mysteries/the_infinite_multiverse_and_monkeys_typing_pi-138060
Indefinite is so much easier to manage.
If I understand the article right, the idea is based on a finite view of infinite series. 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4.. and so on eventually equating to 2, but only at infinity.
His description of an infinite number of monkeys typing, and the assertion that none of them would ever type out PI is based on a finite view of things.
There's this invisible wall between the finite and the infinite. Why we tend to put this wall there is difficult to understand, but that wall tends to result in the idea that an infinite number of monkeys would not be able to type out PI in its entirety (which is also infinite). Observably none of them will, but, for lack of better terms, infinity demands that it will eventually happen. Profit favors the prepared |
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