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Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
500
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello everybody! I've been thinking about the most overlooked battleship class in the game, Black Ops. They have a huge price tag for a very limited role and see much less use than the other Battleships. I thought I'd try to start a discussion on what they could be made into in their future rebalance to have a much more unique use (think Marauders).
Any ideas you have, shoot! "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
500
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 00:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Just a quick idea I thought of- sorry if it's insubstantial.
Black Ops get Covert Ops cloak Black Ops get the ability to fit a clone vat bay with a limited number of clones (10 at most) Black Ops get a small Fleet Hangar Black Ops get a Ship Maintenance Bay (say 2 cruisers) only able to accommodate 'stealth ships' (Stealth Bombers, Covert Ops, Expedition Frigates, Astero, Stratios, et cetera)
This would make Black Ops into stealthy and mobile fleet ships, with the ability to bring in reinforcements effectively and quickly.
Tell me your thoughts, or your own idea! "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
749
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 02:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:Just a quick idea I thought of- sorry if it's insubstantial. Black Ops get Covert Ops cloak Black Ops get the ability to fit a clone vat bay with a limited number of clones (10 at most) Black Ops get a small Fleet Hangar Black Ops get a Ship Maintenance Bay (say 2 cruisers) only able to accommodate 'stealth ships' (Stealth Bombers, Covert Ops, Expedition Frigates, Astero, Stratios, et cetera)This would make Black Ops into stealthy and mobile fleet ships, with the ability to bring in reinforcements effectively and quickly. Tell me your thoughts, or your own idea! Black Ops BS need none of the things you posted recommend. They don't need a Covert Cloak. They function perfectly fine without one. A vat bay would be completely useless. They don't need to haul extra ships mods or ammo. They do the job they are supposed to, and with some pretty simple changes they can stop being bad.
BlOps BS need the following things: T2 resists More fitting so they can fit reasonable DPS/tank without going with faction mods (Pretty much impossible to get a reasonable fit now without faction mods.)
Specifically each hull needs: The Widow needs to lose the ECM bonuses and become a missile DPS ship. The Sin needs to become purely hybrid or purely drone based. I would rather see drones personally.
They need the following bonuses on each ship: BS skill: 5% capacitor recharge time (I personally like recharge time since you hit grid at 25% cap at best. Capacitor amount would work also.) 5-7.5% Damage (Not ROF)
BlOps skill: 5-7.5% Optimal/falloff range or missile velocity 5-7.5% tracking/explosion velocity
Role bonuses: 250% velocity when cloaked Can fit Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation
That's all BlOps BS need. Pretty quick and simple fix. It allows each part of the Covert Ops line to do what it needs to: Stealth bombers do lots of DPS cheaply while only having frigate tank. Recons lock down the target through jams, damps, Tracking disruption, neuts, and webs. BlOps BS bring the hurt, but die just like any other BS when unsupported. Covert haulers to haul/be bridged in with anything extra that is needed.
I think you will find you are going to have a much harder time rebalancing Recons and Stealth bombers than the BlOps BS. Join [FIGL] Flying Dangerous Today! |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
500
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 02:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
I know what you're saying, but I was talking more about a total repurpose and an entirely new function if that happened- like what they did to marauders.
But I agree with what you're saying here. "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
749
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 02:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:I know what you're saying, but I was talking more about a total repurpose and an entirely new function if that happened- like what they did to marauders.
But I agree with what you're saying here. There is no repurpose that needs to happen. All your ideas turn it into a Rorqual or a carrier. If you need that functionality just bring a Rorqual or a carrier along.
BlOps BS are the kings of bridge in the gang, hit the target, GTFO once the target is dead and before help gets there. What stops it from doing that well are the BlOps BS ship bonuses, lack of T2 resists, and the nightmare they are to fit without faction mods. Bastion was added to mauraders to cement marauders as the kings of solo PvE and give them some usefulness in PvP. BlOps BS don't need that as their unique ability to bridge a gang and jump to cynos is already present. They are specialized hulls that with a little bit of updating can do their specialized role fantastically. No repurpose needed. Join [FIGL] Flying Dangerous Today! |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
500
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 02:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
That is a good point. But I'd still like to see them get CovOps cloak "A City made of Wood is built in the forest; A City made of Stone is built in the mountains; But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Bohneik Itohn
Amarrian Salvage Gnomes and Associates
352
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 02:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie. Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya
Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help. |
Saelem Black
Savage Knights
2
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 03:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'd love to see them repurposed into proper dps ships. As a former Redeemer pilot, I would have loved the covops cloak. It sucks when your cover gets blown because you.... enter warp. Since my experience is limited to the Redeemer, let me propose a potential change.
8/4/7 6 turrets (maybe on the abaddon hull, oooohhh)
Amarr Battleship Bonus: 7.5% to large energy turret rate of fire per level 10% to large energy turret optimal range per level
Blackops Bonus: 20% reduction in targeting delay after decloaking 7.5% reduction in isotope consumption for covert jump portal generators.
Role bonus: Can fit covert ops cloaks Reactivation timer for cloaks reduced to 10 sec.
50mbit/s bandwidth, 75 m3 drone bay.
Enough PG to squeeze on mega beams, (or mega pulses and a moderate tank). Poor alpha, but good for sustained sniping. Good maneuverability, speed, and targeting range. Moderate sensor strength.
Just my .02 isk |
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
324
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 04:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie.
My wish list for blops to be used from highclass wh: 50-100% boost to bridge range Reduced mass to normal levels or less Be able to bridge cruisers easier Reasoning: I want boosted bridge range because 90% of the time you will find large null operations between 1-2 cynos away. I would love to be able to bridge in bomber gangs on that but trying to burn 2 covert cynos out to there position and coordinate that is difficult. Doubling the range frees up a pilot for joining the bomber wing which is usually a small crew to begin with. Every pilot counts.
Using just blops out of wh will never be a thing even with Nestor-like mass. Currently 10(+/-2) blops round trip will kill a fresh c5/c6 to null. Using blops as a catapult to drop cloaky t3 gang on unsuspecting nullbears is possible currently but its problematic. Its easier to light a regular cyno and simultaneously jump in a carrier full of t3s and bridge in bombers then have the bombers swap out on grid. A fully cargo fit deemer can bridge about the same number of t3s a carrier can hold. The problem with the deemer is that it can only bridge cloaky t3's which are vastly under powered where as the carrier can hold normal fitted t3s and you have a triage on grid maximizing dps.
An alternative method that I havent been able to test is using a good ceptor pilot to roam out and find carriers. The ceptor is specially fit for speed and has a cyno. Unless the carrier has drone speed upgrades the ceptor can outrun warriors. When the ceptor finds a carrier it holds it down until the blops is ready to bridge the bomber gang in. Obviously its better to have the gang ready as soon as the carrier is pointed because if the ceptor has drones on it it will only last a few seconds once it slows down to cyno speed.
If CCP makes it more viable then having to use these methods then I see blops use out of wh's much more prevalent and fun. These methods aren't very fun compared to the other fleets you could be running in the time it takes to set these up. Blue-Fire Best Fire |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 07:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:That is a good point. But I'd still like to see them get CovOps cloak- it'd help a lot, especially in any environment where you want to stay hidden (e.g. wormholes) I do not believe either Battleship class should have the ability to jump cloaked. That would be really bad for the game balance.
make them warp faster by increasing their cloaked speed yes, but still have to uncloak to warp... "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
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Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 07:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie. It would be neat to have them be able to increase or lower their mass in some capacity up to a maximum mass equivalent to the Orca MWD mass. (300 000 000) "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Tilly Delnero
Licorne Ventures Ltd.
146
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 07:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie. Giving it a small fleet hangar and the ability to refit from might help in that regard, but then it would need to have something removed from it to counterbalance since for a covert fleet that's potentially quite a powerful ability.
The last thing BlOps need are nerfs in any other areas. |
Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
749
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 08:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie. Why must something be useful in all types of space? You choose to go to space where cynos and hotdropping are not a thing. Why must a cyno and hotdropping ship be molded to be useful for you?
Saelem Black wrote:I'd love to see them repurposed into proper dps ships. As a former Redeemer pilot, I would have loved the covops cloak. It sucks when your cover gets blown because you.... enter warp. Since my experience is limited to the Redeemer, let me propose a potential change.
8/4/7 6 turrets (maybe on the abaddon hull, oooohhh)
Amarr Battleship Bonus: 7.5% to large energy turret rate of fire per level 10% to large energy turret optimal range per level
Blackops Bonus: 20% reduction in targeting delay after decloaking 7.5% reduction in isotope consumption for covert jump portal generators.
Role bonus: Can fit covert ops cloaks Reactivation timer for cloaks reduced to 10 sec.
50mbit/s bandwidth, 75 m3 drone bay.
Enough PG to squeeze on mega beams, (or mega pulses and a moderate tank). Poor alpha, but good for sustained sniping. Good maneuverability, speed, and targeting range. Moderate sensor strength.
Just my .02 isk It must have been quite a while since you flew a BlOps BS because what you just posted is a flat out nerf to BlOps BS. There is no targeting delay on BlOps BS once you decloak. So that reduction in targeting delay bonus is useless. The reactivation timer for the cloak is already at 5 seconds, not the 10 seconds you proposed. BlOps BS got a pretty significant upgrade to how many ships they can bridge a few patches ago so the reduction in isotope use is not worth it. You are nerfing the drone bay and removing the tracking bonus.
Also, BlOps BS DO NOT NEED Covert Ops cloaks. There is simply no useful case in which a convert ops cloak will be beneficial. If you need to warp you align, decloak, and instantly go into warp because of the velocity bonus. Once you land you jump out or recloak. Warping cloaked is not useful because you are already invulnerable when in warp. It doesn't add to the ship as cloaked ships can't harm anything. Also, if you get your Covert Ops cloak CCP will nerf the hulls in some other way to compensate for the buff. Warping cloaked is not worth gimping BlOps BS.
Tilly Delnero wrote:Giving it a small fleet hangar and the ability to refit from might help in that regard, but then it would need to have something removed from it to counterbalance since for a covert fleet that's potentially quite a powerful ability.
The last thing BlOps need are nerfs in any other areas. Again, if you want to refit grab a mobile depot or a carrier and use that to refit. BlOps BS are designed to bridge things and kill things. We already have ships with fleet hangars and refitting other ships. Use those instead of giving BlOps BS a new buff that CCP will compensate for with a nerf. Join [FIGL] Flying Dangerous Today! |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
14
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 10:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
a 5% - 7.5% damage bonus per battleship lvl would be nice... with a total of 6 turrets for those who use turrets. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2262
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 10:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
As someone whose immediate next ship purchase will be a Panther, I am very interested to see what CCPs Fozzie and Rise do with/to Blops BSes. |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
718
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 13:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
I would like to see the black ops ships get some sort of logi role. Nothing too powerful, perhaps a 20% bonus per level to the logistics drones.
We have covert DPS, covert E-WAR and tackle, but no covert logi (Limited edition tournament prize ships don't count!) Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
718
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 13:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Woops, double post. *curses the gods of lag* Fleet Bookmarks New Gravimetric Sites Med Clones 2.0 |
Bohneik Itohn
Amarrian Salvage Gnomes and Associates
362
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 13:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aquila Sagitta wrote:Bohneik Itohn wrote:The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie. My wish list for blops to be used from highclass wh: 50-100% boost to bridge range Reduced mass to normal levels or less Be able to bridge cruisers easier Reasoning: I want boosted bridge range because 90% of the time you will find large null operations between 1-2 cynos away. I would love to be able to bridge in bomber gangs on that but trying to burn 2 covert cynos out to there position and coordinate that is difficult. Doubling the range frees up a pilot for joining the bomber wing which is usually a small crew to begin with. Every pilot counts. Using just blops out of wh will never be a thing even with Nestor-like mass. Currently 10(+/-2) blops round trip will kill a fresh c5/c6 to null. Using blops as a catapult to drop cloaky t3 gang on unsuspecting nullbears is possible currently but its problematic. Its easier to light a regular cyno and simultaneously jump in a carrier full of t3s and bridge in bombers then have the bombers swap out on grid. A fully cargo fit deemer can bridge about the same number of t3s a carrier can hold. The problem with the deemer is that it can only bridge cloaky t3's which are vastly under powered where as the carrier can hold normal fitted t3s and you have a triage on grid maximizing dps. An alternative method that I havent been able to test is using a good ceptor pilot to roam out and find carriers. The ceptor is specially fit for speed and has a cyno. Unless the carrier has drone speed upgrades the ceptor can outrun warriors. When the ceptor finds a carrier it holds it down until the blops is ready to bridge the bomber gang in. Obviously its better to have the gang ready as soon as the carrier is pointed because if the ceptor has drones on it it will only last a few seconds once it slows down to cyno speed. If CCP makes it more viable then having to use these methods then I see blops use out of wh's much more prevalent and fun. These methods aren't very fun compared to the other fleets you could be running in the time it takes to set these up.
Fair suggestion. Except that everything about the suggestion involves using Blops ships outside of WH's, not in them.
Black ops have always been able to sit in the hangar array with ease until a decent null connection opens up. What they need is a reason to be flown IN WH's.
And that's the point. As it stands, using a Black ops for actual WH activity is impossible to conceive, there's just no use for them. Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya
Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2249
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 13:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
from 2012.07.23 soo caveats apply
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Yes, Black Ops definitely need some attention; the main problem with them is the lack of role focus. Some (like the Redeemer or Window) are trying to achieve a purpose directly on the battlefield, similar with recons by having an electronic warfare or damage related bonus. On top of that, they also are trying to fulfill a fleet support role with their cyno capability, which is quite in contradiction with the previous one.
And they aren't great at both: their raw HP is quite lower than tech 1 battleships (and tech 2 resistance boosts aren't stellar either), have less turret and missile hardpoints than tech 1 counterparts and remain more expensive to run, which doesn't make them appealing for direct engagement purposes. They also lack autonomy in their support role, as they are quite short ranged, fuel hungry and this issue is amplified by their small fuel bay forcing them to rely on other ships to resupply frequently during an operation.
The current plan is to take one these two listed roles out of the Black Ops ship class and reshape them to do the remaining one well. If they are disruption ships using EW, they should have more presence on the battlefield for their pricetag. If they are support tools for surprise attacks and small gang movement into enemy space, then they should have the proper bay, range and tools to do so accordingly.
The role dropped out of the Black Ops would then be moved to a new class in the tech 2 battleship range to replace for the loss.
We acknowledge some entities out there are using Black Ops with great effect when backed up with the proper organization, structure and out-of-the-box thinking to make use of them in unorthodox situations. While we don't want to take that away, Black Ops should be more effective without such heavy commitment into them (a statistic query we ran at the beginning of this year shown there are more Titan than Block Ops pilot on TQ). They should be great force multiplier tools for small groups to take on larger ones by surprise, and should be able to do so relatively well without relying on a dedicated support structure.
So, when would this be coming out? Unfortunately, not for a while. As explained in the various blogs before, our current priority is to fix tech 1 ships as a whole before moving to more advanced hulls. That is because we need a solid frame of reference to rely on and compare hulls to before we can move to more delicate and complex ships, like Black Ops or tech 3 hulls.
Also don't forget this is just our long term plan for now, and things may change in the future. In all cases they are not forgotten, but will take time to get to.
Hope that helps!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1684408#post1684408 "Confirming EVE is hot, batshit crazy, and puts out." -Omar Alharazaad "CAKE CANNOT HOLD UP TO BEING A CHARACTER DAMNIT." --áUnsuccessful At Everything |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
634
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 14:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
sounds like you are looking for a mini cap ship not a battleship. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
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SFM Hobb3s
Wrecking Shots Black Legion.
85
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 14:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:I would like to see the black ops ships get some sort of logi role. Nothing too powerful, perhaps a 20% bonus per level to the logistics drones.
We have covert DPS, covert E-WAR and tackle, but no covert logi (Limited edition tournament prize ships don't count!)
Or do what they should have done in the first place, make the Nestor the Black Ops Logi ship. |
Karash Amerius
Sutoka
181
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 18:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Giving it a mobile depot type ability for fleet use would be helpful...especially to support covert T3 gangs. Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka |
Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
751
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 18:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:I would like to see the black ops ships get some sort of logi role. Nothing too powerful, perhaps a 20% bonus per level to the logistics drones.
We have covert DPS, covert E-WAR and tackle, but no covert logi (Limited edition tournament prize ships don't count!) There is actually Covert Logi that is not the Etana. You can fit up T3 cruisers to do logistics. There are numerous AT matches which used T3s as logistics to great effect. They rep an incredible amount, but range isn't great. It doesn't really need to be as you all spawn fairly close and BlOps are more of hit and run tactics. So you shouldn't be spending a lot of time on grid anyway. Join [FIGL] Flying Dangerous Today! |
Grezh
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
14
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 19:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Personally i think it would be better if the Blops would all become dedicated bridging ships with good combat capabilities, for a support ship you only need to look to the Nestor for one. They already have a 7/6/6 slot layout allowing for shield and armor tank if the resist bonus is removed and the rep bonuses include shields, add a cloak bonus and jump drive and you have a dedicated blops support ship. You could even add the refit/clone bay/ship mainenance array.
Just a thought, if nestors are given the ability to process ice into fuel you could have the ability to have long duration blops roams in the area of space that contains the specific ice they need. Tho if this is put into effect the nestor will need to be quite fragile. |
Saelem Black
Savage Knights
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 19:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
Aliventi wrote: It must have been quite a while since you flew a BlOps BS because what you just posted is a flat out nerf to BlOps BS. There is no targeting delay on BlOps BS once you decloak. So that reduction in targeting delay bonus is useless. The reactivation timer for the cloak is already at 5 seconds, not the 10 seconds you proposed. BlOps BS got a pretty significant upgrade to how many ships they can bridge a few patches ago so the reduction in isotope use is not worth it. You are nerfing the drone bay and removing the tracking bonus.
Also, BlOps BS DO NOT NEED Covert Ops cloaks. There is simply no useful case in which a covert ops cloak will be beneficial. If you need to warp you align, decloak, and instantly go into warp because of the velocity bonus. Once you land you jump out or recloak. Warping cloaked is not useful because you are already invulnerable when in warp. It doesn't add to the ship as cloaked ships can't harm anything. Also, if you get your Covert Ops cloak CCP will nerf the hulls in some other way to compensate for the buff. Warping cloaked is not worth gimping BlOps BS.
If you're going to criticize me, at least know what you're talking about, a**hat. The reactivation timer of a covert ops cloak is the time before you can CLOAK AGAIN, not before you can target. Go read the covops cloak item card. It's 30 sec default, fly an SOE ship to see how that feels. The sensor recalibration time (that is, the time it takes before you can target once decloaked) is 5 sec. Blackops currently have a ROLE BONUS that allows them to target without a delay from a regular cloaking device. This is necessary because even faction cloaks have a 25 sec targeting delay. With the ability to fit a covops cloak, that bonus is no longer as necessary (hence I removed it in my suggestion) dropping the time to 5 sec, default. The skill bonus allows you to still aquire ships faster than other cloakies, and matches the original bonus at level 5.
Of course I got rid of the tracking. My entire suggestion was that blackops be turned into snipers.... hence the optimal bonus. See how many recons you can bridge with the existing isotope bay. It would be nice to bridge a couple cruisers, and maybe even an armor tanked T3 without having to refuel once or twice in an op.
Its obvious you have never flown blackops. Have you even ever used a ship with a cloak? You need the covops cloak not to protect yourself, but so people can't see you on d-scan while you're in warp. If they see you, your cover is blown whatever your goal. If you're not looking for a fight, fine, but now the gates are camped. You better hope your bridging alt got out safely. If you're trying to ambush someone, you lose the element of surprise.
Here's a thought: before you shoot your mouth off, why don't you actually think before you type? |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
504
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 19:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:The current plan is to take one these two listed roles out of the Black Ops ship class and reshape them to do the remaining one well. If they are disruption ships using EW, they should have more presence on the battlefield for their pricetag. If they are support tools for surprise attacks and small gang movement into enemy space, then they should have the proper bay, range and tools to do so accordingly.
The role dropped out of the Black Ops would then be moved to a new class in the tech 2 battleship range to replace for the loss. I really like this idea. Sexy black Abaddon anyone? |
Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
753
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 21:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Saelem Black wrote:If you're going to criticize me, at least know what you're talking about, a**hat. The reactivation timer of a covert ops cloak is the time before you can CLOAK AGAIN, not before you can target. Go read the covops cloak item card. It's 30 sec default, fly an SOE ship to see how that feels. The sensor recalibration time (that is, the time it takes before you can target once decloaked) is 5 sec. Blackops currently have a ROLE BONUS that allows them to target without a delay from a regular cloaking device. This is necessary because even faction cloaks have a 25 sec targeting delay. With the ability to fit a covops cloak, that bonus is no longer as necessary (hence I removed it in my suggestion) dropping the time to 5 sec, default. The skill bonus allows you to still aquire ships faster than other cloakies, and matches the original bonus at level 5.
Of course I got rid of the tracking. My entire suggestion was that blackops be turned into snipers.... hence the optimal bonus. See how many recons you can bridge with the existing isotope bay. It would be nice to bridge a couple cruisers, and maybe even an armor tanked T3 without having to refuel once or twice in an op.
Its obvious you have never flown blackops. Have you even ever used a ship with a cloak? You need the covops cloak not to protect yourself, but so people can't see you on d-scan while you're in warp. If they see you, your cover is blown whatever your goal. If you're not looking for a fight, fine, but now the gates are camped. You better hope your bridging alt got out safely. If you're trying to ambush someone, you lose the element of surprise.
Here's a thought: before you shoot your mouth off, why don't you actually think before you type? Of course I am criticizing you. Your idea is stupid and a nerf to BlOps BS. Why would I tell you that is a good idea?
Since apparently you can't read. Here are the role bonuses on the BlOps: Can fit Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds (Time before you can recloak) No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation (Time until you can target after decloaking)
Why would you want to have BlOps trained to V to get what you can already get with the role bonus? You are advocating for a Covert Ops cloak that requires you to have BlOps V to have what you already have with the current role bonus and a regular cloak. That's what people call a nerf. You are wasting a perfectly good (tbh two perfectly good) BlOps skill bonuses to try and fix things that can be handled better with the current role bonus and and possibly another buff to how many ships a BlOps BS can bridge. Again, why would I tell that is a good idea?
Oh and I love the idea of cynoing at 0-10 on a ship (scram/web range of the ship tackling and lighting the cyno) and sniping it. Let me tell you how great of an idea that is. Oh and lets go over just how awesome that covert ops cloak is going to be when you cyno in at 0-10 on a target uncloaked. Yeah. Really keeping your cover intact there! It's not like you appear in local or anything already. So again, why would I tell you that is a good idea? I mean... Do you even Black Ops?
Here is how you properly use a BlOps BS: Tackle target in a scram web tanky recon/T3. That tackle ship lights the cyno. Bridge in the ships and jump in the BlOps. damp, ECM, TP, web, point, TD, neut, etc and kill the target. SBs and recons cloak and warp. BlOps BS MJD away in a random direction, cloak, align to a safe, decloak, isnta warp, land, and recloak.
Literally 0 risk and.. wait for it... you don't need a covert ops cloak.
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:The current plan is to take one these two listed roles out of the Black Ops ship class and reshape them to do the remaining one well. If they are disruption ships using EW, they should have more presence on the battlefield for their pricetag. If they are support tools for surprise attacks and small gang movement into enemy space, then they should have the proper bay, range and tools to do so accordingly.
The role dropped out of the Black Ops would then be moved to a new class in the tech 2 battleship range to replace for the loss. I really like this idea. Sexy black Abaddon anyone? IIRC in some set of CSM minutes since this post CCP elected not to do it as it would mean that people would have to buy another ship to do what they do already. Join [FIGL] Flying Dangerous Today! |
Saelem Black
Savage Knights
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 22:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Aliventi wrote: Of course I am criticizing you. Your idea is stupid and a nerf to BlOps BS. Why would I tell you that is a good idea?
Since apparently you can't read. Here are the role bonuses on the BlOps: Can fit Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds (Time before you can recloak) No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation (Time until you can target after decloaking)
Why would you want to have BlOps trained to V to get what you can already get with the role bonus? You are advocating for a Covert Ops cloak that requires you to have BlOps V to have what you already have with the current role bonus and a regular cloak. That's what people call a nerf. You are wasting a perfectly good (tbh two perfectly good) BlOps skill bonuses to try and fix things that can be handled better with the current role bonus and and possibly another buff to how many ships a BlOps BS can bridge. Again, why would I tell that is a good idea?
Oh and I love the idea of cynoing at 0-10 on a ship (scram/web range of the ship tackling and lighting the cyno) and sniping it. Let me tell you how great of an idea that is. Oh and lets go over just how awesome that covert ops cloak is going to be when you cyno in at 0-10 on a target uncloaked. Yeah. Really keeping your cover intact there! It's not like you appear in local or anything already. So again, why would I tell you that is a good idea? I mean... Do you even Black Ops?
Here is how you properly use a BlOps BS: Tackle target in a scram web tanky recon/T3. That tackle ship lights the cyno. Bridge in the ships and jump in the BlOps. damp, ECM, TP, web, point, TD, neut, etc and kill the target. SBs and recons cloak and warp. BlOps BS MJD away in a random direction, cloak, align to a safe, decloak, isnta warp, land, and recloak.
Literally 0 risk and.. wait for it... you don't need a covert ops cloak.
So, not only did you completely fail to understand my original post, then try to criticize it, but now you're saying that the only use blackops has is for hotdropping. Very good. Your comments are bad and you should feel bad.
1.) If all you know how to do is hotdrop, get a f*king carrier. I'm not the one who sucks at blackops. You don't need the cloak either way, and its 3 wasted bonuses. 2.) My proposed changes were with a covops cloak in mind. Obviously. In my changes, the tradeoff for a covops cloak is slight increase targeting time, which is a perfect balancing agent for a cloaky sniper. 3.) Covert ops cloaking device is a buff, regardless of how thickheaded you are. |
Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
753
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 22:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Saelem Black wrote:So, not only did you completely fail to understand my original post, then try to criticize it, but now you're saying that the only use blackops has is for hotdropping. Very good. Your comments are bad and you should feel bad.
1.) If all you know how to do is hotdrop, get a f*king carrier. I'm not the one who sucks at blackops. You don't need the cloak either way, and its 3 wasted bonuses. 2.) My proposed changes were with a covops cloak in mind. Obviously. In my changes, the tradeoff for a covops cloak is slight increase targeting time, which is a perfect balancing agent for a cloaky sniper. 3.) Covert ops cloaking device is a buff, regardless of how thickheaded you are. What I am seeing here is a lack of experience properly using BlOps BS. The sheer "Use a carrier! You don't need a cloak! You are wasting the role bonuses!" comment is making that pretty clear. Until you have that experience you will continue to spout off how you "need a covert ops cloak!" and try to rebalance BlOps BS to have them. You are incorrect about the need of a covert ops cloak. You seem to not understand that. I have tried, but seem unable to educate you about this. Your inability to read and comprehend would probably be the cause you thinking that I am saying that "covert ops cloaks are a nerf" whereas I am saying "your attempt to add a Covert Ops cloak and make it balanced is an overall nerf". I know the line is hard to distinguish, but it is there.
So I am going to cease replying to you. This should be a constructive thread and your destructive, ad hominem filled, posting should stop. It's up to you if you want to stop or not. I will no longer reply to you. Join [FIGL] Flying Dangerous Today! |
Saelem Black
Savage Knights
6
|
Posted - 2014.06.25 23:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
Aliventi wrote: I have tried, but seem unable to educate you about this.
Why do you play this game at all then, great omniscient one?
Since it's turned into a pissing contest, I guess there isn't much left to discuss with you. I'd point out that you were the one who came after me. If you don't have the teeth for a fight, then don't start one.
The fact remains that blackops are not serving their purpose as intended. My solution is to repurpose them into a sniping platform for dps support for cloaky fleets. The covops cloak is important because it allows you and whatever op you are running to stay hidden up until the opportune moment, as well as perform the same types of maneuvers (in warp) as your gangmates. This would make small gang blackops much more viable. The only situation that the cloak isn't needed is a hotdrop, which is an all-or-nothing prospect to start with, and is only viable if you have a clear number or skill advantage over your adversary. You can't cloak once the battle begins, so its sole purpose is for the sake maneuvering into position undetected. (and perhaps keeping safe.)
The existing blackops rely far too heavily on drones, a weapon system that is problematic if you have to cut your losses and try to escape. Sniping allows blackops to not have to be totally committed to the fight. If things go south, they can MJD and still be effective, or be sufficiently far from their targets for a clean escape. Sniping would allow them to be able to support ANY cloaky group, not just hotdrops, and (god forbid) not just pvp. Currently, blackops have been (with only a small amount of sarcasm) relegated to player owned stargates.
Stealth ops are all about fast, agressive attack, then a retreat just as quickly. Recons effectively cover the cloaky ewar. Blackops need to be support dps, and non-committal. The best way to do that is with drone-free sniping. |
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