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Levina Windstar
Mekalon Industry
1
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Posted - 2014.06.25 13:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi fellow WHers,
I need your advides regarding POS fuel. I will soon start doing some PI in my WH and I want to know if I should be manufacturing the fuel inside my POS with PI mats or it is not worth the effort and I should just sell PI mats and continue to buy fuel blocks at the market? I know that I won't save much hauling making the fuel inside my POS but will I save much ISK doing it?
Consider that we own all the POCO with 0% tax and that we have all the necessery planet to make enough Coolant, Enriched Uranium, Mechanical Parts, Robotics and Oxygen.
Thanks. |
Elmonky
Titans of The Short Bus Universal Consortium
67
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Posted - 2014.06.25 14:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Depends on your BPO and what state of research it has had. |
RudinV
Syndicate of Death BLOOD UNION
383
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
ohh poor child... why dont u even try to use a part of ur brain to clackclack calculator (Casio CS-912 is ok) and find out the answer??... or at least check forum for the answer, same page few blondies cant find a solution for exactly the same question |
Icarus Able
Revenant Tactical
405
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Its worth it to build it in the POS. A BPO is only around 30 mill.
Hauling it in is also a lot easier as its slightly smaller so you can bring in more with less time. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
442
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Posted - 2014.06.25 15:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Icarus Able wrote:Hauling it in is also a lot easier as its slightly smaller so you can bring in more with less time. Before Crius, hauling all of the mats in to produce fuel blocks is less efficient than hauling in the fuel blocks themselves. After Crius, this changes.
Elmonky wrote:Depends on your BPO and what state of research it has had. This, mostly.
We can't tell you, partly because output on planets is neither consistent over time, nor consistent system to system. It depends on many factors that are more appropriate to discuss in other forums than this one.
Look at your blueprints, see what you need of each mat. Calculate the cost of acquiring each of the materials and how much you could make by selling the materials, both of those depending on your patience (Jita Sell price vs Jita Buy price). That is how much each of those materials are worth. To be safe, lowball your estimates: use Jita Sell to acquire product and Jita Buy to sell product. Isotopes will be your largest expense and most hauling-intensive aspect of the process, though their volume is dropping by one-third when Crius comes.
Experimentally determine your planetary output over the course of a couple of weeks; use your actual system and not estimates from hisec or lowsec, since PI in W-space is better than both of those. Reduce your numbers by at least 25% to account for non-optimal extraction and shared resources. Reduce by a higher percentage if a number of people will be sharing the planets.
This will give you your cost to manufacture the fuel blocks. First, compare that to the price for buying them to determine if it's worth it to manufacture them in the first place.
Then experimentally determine the same numbers as above using other, more profitable PI products if you see any. You can make your own spreadsheet to determine this, or use any of the numerous ones out there that Google knows about.
Compare the effective ISK/hr from the PI mats to the effective ISK/hr of whatever other mats you would produce. You can then make your decision based on those numbers and the cost of the fuel blocks on the market.
(This process applies to just about all research and industry)
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
673
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Posted - 2014.06.25 16:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Unless you have 1-2 dedicated industrialists in almost every case it will just be less hassle in the long run to sell the Pi stuff, run a few sites and buy and haul the POS fuel in, especially now that DSTs are viable for hauling a reasonable amount of fuel in (and Pi out) at a time.
In most cases if you have a half efficent PVE setup and access to a reasonable number of sites it won't take more than an hour a week to cover POS fuel costs. |
Levina Windstar
Mekalon Industry
1
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Posted - 2014.06.25 16:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Meytal wrote:Icarus Able wrote:Hauling it in is also a lot easier as its slightly smaller so you can bring in more with less time. Before Crius, hauling all of the mats in to produce fuel blocks is less efficient than hauling in the fuel blocks themselves. After Crius, this changes. Elmonky wrote:Depends on your BPO and what state of research it has had. This, mostly. We can't tell you, partly because output on planets is neither consistent over time, nor consistent system to system. It depends on many factors that are more appropriate to discuss in other forums than this one. Look at your blueprints, see what you need of each mat. Calculate the cost of acquiring each of the materials and how much you could make by selling the materials, both of those depending on your patience (Jita Sell price vs Jita Buy price). That is how much each of those materials are worth. To be safe, lowball your estimates: use Jita Sell to acquire product and Jita Buy to sell product. Isotopes will be your largest expense and most hauling-intensive aspect of the process, though their volume is dropping by one-third when Crius comes. Experimentally determine your planetary output over the course of a couple of weeks; use your actual system and not estimates from hisec or lowsec, since PI in W-space is better than both of those. Reduce your numbers by at least 25% to account for non-optimal extraction and shared resources. Reduce by a higher percentage if a number of people will be sharing the planets. This will give you your cost to manufacture the fuel blocks. First, compare that to the price for buying them to determine if it's worth it to manufacture them in the first place. Then experimentally determine the same numbers as above using other, more profitable PI products if you see any. You can make your own spreadsheet to determine this, or use any of the numerous ones out there that Google knows about. Compare the effective ISK/hr from the PI mats to the effective ISK/hr of whatever other mats you would produce. You can then make your decision based on those numbers and the cost of the fuel blocks on the market. (This process applies to just about all research and industry)
Thanks for the answers so far. I will eventually make a spreadsheet and see the difference over time. I just wanted to know if the idea of making our own fuel is generally a "better" idea rather than selling tier 2+ PI materials to the market.
I'm not really into industry yet but after seing the comments above and a quick research, it looks like you can improve BPO resulting in increase of material and production efficiency? |
Conar
My Wormhole Hurts
19
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Posted - 2014.06.25 16:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Depending on what you can produce on your planets, I would bet you could make more isk with a P4 then you could with pos fuel. Make the p4 and haul fuel. You are going to have to haul ice products no matter what you do.
You will loose on logistics and fuel cost when you consider what can be made (p4) and sold to cover fuel and make a little bank.
I am by no means an expert but If you want to evemail me your planets, I can give you an idea what I think might be best. I have other wormhole advice if you are interested but... I just pretend to know what i'm talking about most days.
Conar 07
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ISD Supogo
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
272
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Posted - 2014.06.25 19:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Removed a flame post.
Quote:4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated. ISD Supogo Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Shinjo Bajahnhosuu
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
14
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Posted - 2014.06.25 23:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
ISD Supogo wrote:Removed a flame post. Quote:4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
Who the hell flames a PI thread? |
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Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
48
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Posted - 2014.06.26 00:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Levina Windstar wrote:
I need your advice regarding POS fuel.
Don't waste your time on activities you do not enjoy. Let the poor high guys and null bears work for you and have fun, e.g. kill them while they work for you. You are a w-dude and saving a few 100 mils a month is not worth your time.
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Jack Miton
Rolled Out
3456
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Posted - 2014.06.26 00:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Buy it is Jita. Don't do PI. Be better at making isk in WHs. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
160
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Posted - 2014.06.26 11:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
There is simple rule in EvE which applies to this situation too. "If you can't make it for profit you should not be making it at all." |
Levina Windstar
Mekalon Industry
1
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Posted - 2014.06.26 14:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:Levina Windstar wrote:
I need your advice regarding POS fuel.
Don't waste your time on activities you do not enjoy. Let the poor high guys and null bears work for you and have fun, e.g. kill them while they work for you. You are a w-dude and saving a few 100 mils a month is not worth your time.
Meaby you guys will think that I'm crazy but I'm mostly leaning PI skills cause I actually think that I will enjoy doing PI regardless if it's not THAT lucrative but I heard it is in WH anyway
I like to manage these kind of stuff in general, trying to find THE optimal way for making this lucrative, telling myself that I am a real PI manager
I hope that there's actually some ppl out there who enoy doing PI before thinking about ISK income... Ok... meaby I am crazy |
Elmonky
Titans of The Short Bus Universal Consortium
67
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Posted - 2014.06.26 14:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Levina Windstar wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:Levina Windstar wrote:
I need your advice regarding POS fuel.
Don't waste your time on activities you do not enjoy. Let the poor high guys and null bears work for you and have fun, e.g. kill them while they work for you. You are a w-dude and saving a few 100 mils a month is not worth your time. Meaby you guys will think that I'm crazy but I'm mostly leaning PI skills cause I actually think that I will enjoy doing PI regardless if it's not THAT lucrative but I heard it is in WH anyway I like to manage these kind of stuff in general, trying to find THE optimal way for making this lucrative, telling myself that I am a real PI manager I hope that there's actually some ppl out there who enoy doing PI before thinking about ISK income... Ok... meaby I am crazy
We split our across 5 peeps. One per ''ingredient'' per se. It cuts down on excessive trips to POCO especially in a high traffic WH. Any excess we sell to the Allaince guys within the WH itself. |
Abbie Rova
Dracos Dozen
16
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Posted - 2014.06.26 14:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
One thing to consider as well is that Fuel blocks are made up of a few items, and that there are 2 main sources for these items. 1. PI 2. Ice
A large tower consumers about 4-450m in fuel a month, depending on the race and how much you pay for it. By my admittedly quick piece of paper calculations the Ice products make up about 66% of this cost, with the PI products making the other 34%.
Basically, if you wanted to make your own pos fuel for a large tower, you would get that 150m for free, the other 300m in ice products you would have to either buy and haul in, or mine ice in empire space. Not that much of a saving. considering a semi decent PI setup doing any combination of P2/3/4's should make you a lot more then this per month.
TL;DR PI mats are only a small fraction of the cost that goes into fuel blocks, totally not worth it, better off running sites and buying blocks, and making something more profitable per hour with your pi setup. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
49
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Posted - 2014.06.26 15:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
PI is nice passive income in WHs and a lot people do it. It is something you can do when nothing else is going on in your WH. You haul your products out once per month and be done with it. There is nothing wrong with it.
It is just that the financial gain from producing fuel might not be worth it:
Are there some HS groups that produce fuel for abyssal profit margins? Are there more valuable PI-Products to produce than those required for fuel production? What does your corp lose from you being in HS mining ICE/checking markets/hauling stuff?
We had a guy producing fuel for us and he was useless for the corp: We lost a couple of fights because he was not available, we lost isk because we didn't have the numbers to run C5 sites in an efficient manner, we missed opportunities because he was not out there probing.
I told him **** that, move your ass in our WH now! We did not recruit you as an industrialist.
But who am I to tell you how to run your corp. People enjoy doing different stuff. Some even mine in w-space.
Just sharing my 2cents.
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
20
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Posted - 2014.06.26 15:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
Levina Windstar wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:Levina Windstar wrote:
I need your advice regarding POS fuel.
Don't waste your time on activities you do not enjoy. Let the poor high guys and null bears work for you and have fun, e.g. kill them while they work for you. You are a w-dude and saving a few 100 mils a month is not worth your time. Meaby you guys will think that I'm crazy but I'm mostly leaning PI skills cause I actually think that I will enjoy doing PI regardless if it's not THAT lucrative but I heard it is in WH anyway I like to manage these kind of stuff in general, trying to find THE optimal way for making this lucrative, telling myself that I am a real PI manager I hope that there's actually some ppl out there who enoy doing PI before thinking about ISK income... Ok... meaby I am crazy
we do the same. you are not alone. |
Levina Windstar
Mekalon Industry
1
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Posted - 2014.06.26 15:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Abbie Rova wrote:One thing to consider as well is that Fuel blocks are made up of a few items, and that there are 2 main sources for these items. 1. PI 2. Ice
A large tower consumers about 4-450m in fuel a month, depending on the race and how much you pay for it. By my admittedly quick piece of paper calculations the Ice products make up about 66% of this cost, with the PI products making the other 34%.
Basically, if you wanted to make your own pos fuel for a large tower, you would get that 150m for free, the other 300m in ice products you would have to either buy and haul in, or mine ice in empire space. Not that much of a saving. considering a semi decent PI setup doing any combination of P2/3/4's should make you a lot more then this per month.
TL;DR PI mats are only a small fraction of the cost that goes into fuel blocks, totally not worth it, better off running sites and buying blocks, and making something more profitable per hour with your pi setup.
Thank you for your answer. That was actually the kind of answer I was looking for . Guess I will just continue to buy blocks at the market and sell the PI. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2274
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Posted - 2014.06.26 16:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
Levina Windstar wrote:Abbie Rova wrote:One thing to consider as well is that Fuel blocks are made up of a few items, and that there are 2 main sources for these items. 1. PI 2. Ice
A large tower consumers about 4-450m in fuel a month, depending on the race and how much you pay for it. By my admittedly quick piece of paper calculations the Ice products make up about 66% of this cost, with the PI products making the other 34%.
Basically, if you wanted to make your own pos fuel for a large tower, you would get that 150m for free, the other 300m in ice products you would have to either buy and haul in, or mine ice in empire space. Not that much of a saving. considering a semi decent PI setup doing any combination of P2/3/4's should make you a lot more then this per month.
TL;DR PI mats are only a small fraction of the cost that goes into fuel blocks, totally not worth it, better off running sites and buying blocks, and making something more profitable per hour with your pi setup. Thank you for your answer. That was actually the kind of answer I was looking for . Guess I will just continue to buy blocks at the market and sell the PI.
To add to that, currently Ice products take up over 90% of the bulk of POS fuel. So you save very little in hauling as well making your blocks inside. |
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