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Raider Zero
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Posted - 2006.06.22 17:46:00 -
[1]
A dynamic economy, is it not a wonderful thing?
Change missions to make it harder to earn isk in empire. Check.
Players either begin finding new careers or move to 0.0 where they can join in the lagfests or fend for themselves on belt rats and hopefully not get gate ganked too often. OK, fine.
There is an issue that CCP needs to get a grip on though. If less people are running missions and less income is being earned from NPC's, while at the same time more ships are being destroyed and modules along with them, we have a recipe for DE-flation. The same modules will increase in cost exponentially, as there will be less currency in circulation and also less modules to purchase.
Is this by design? Possibly. Maybe CCP feels that pirates and older players have been getting the short end of the stick. Maybe this is in response to all the 'Oh look, another newb running L4's in a Raven' whines. That's all well and good, I will adapt.
I just want this post to be the first to say "I told you so." When 2 months after Kali Arbalest modules are 100 million each and Faction loot is right up there with BPO's. Faction warfare will only increase the number of ships destroyed as it will create perilous PvP in high-sec empire space (better be some heavy rewards or who would do this?), thus increasing the demand for modules and ships even more.
So, while I would like to proven wrong on this point, I don't think that I will. The other issue is that supply/demand curves are fairly volatile and a 5% decrease in the total amount of isk in circulation could very well sway in-game prices exponentially.
In the end, the rich will of course, get richer and it will be harder for newbs to get good stuff. That's probably what CCP is going for, since the new skills are under-powered and over-difficult and too many newbs are catching too many decent->good players too quickly. In the absence of skills that make a big difference, the only way to ensure the power of the experienced players is to ensure they stay wealthier and have better equipment. That is what the mission running changes will do.
Of course, there are always going to be newbs who are hooked on the game and are willing to buy isk with cash from the macro miners and other weathly exploiters who have already made the huge sums, so maybe the economical shift in-game will raise the price of isk out of game and really make things interesting.
In summary, I recognize that this post is kind of all over the place and not necessarily fit for one thread. However, it is tied together by the common theme that fundamental changes to missioning is likely to have far-reaching effects and it does not seem to have been well thought out (as evidenced by never appearing on test servers or in patch notes). I care about this universe, and would like to continue to be involved, but I have also quit other games where the staff decided to get a little power-hungry and "balance" a little too much. Please, CCP consider what effects 'minor' changes like these will have.
BTW, if you want people to move to 0.0, you actually need to weaken the existing alliances, not strengthen them. The people who want an alliance-style "second job" type of EVE life are already in 0.0-it's those of us who appreciate open-ended, free, undirected play who are still in empire and these changes give alliances more targets and shift loot to experienced pirates, but in the end I believe you'll find they go too far in to that end and the pendulum will need to swing back.
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Derrys
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Posted - 2006.06.22 18:08:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Raider Zero
Change missions to make it harder to earn isk in empire. Check.
No check.
Mission rewards are computed dynamically. I don't know exactly how, but I'm sure it has something to do with the average length of time it takes to finish a mission, how many times people lose ships in it, etc.
The drastically reduced mission rewards after the botched patch were a result of this dynamic process not having had time to run. If things had been left to progress on their own, the rewards would've gradually adjusted themselves to more sane values after a while. We've seen this before, whenever they've added new missions to the game.
It's possible that CCP are planning to nerf mission rewards in the future. I have no idea. But don't jump to conclusions based on what happened the other day -- there's a perfectly good explanation for that that has nothing to do with developer conspiracies.
--
Admiral Derrys Otireya
Commander, Fleet Operations, Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Fleet Admiral, Kimotoro Directive |
Ohmy Fugod
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Posted - 2006.06.23 00:01:00 -
[3]
Hey, I appreciate your care for newbs, as a matter of fact, I consider myself to be one.
However I must disagree on a couple facts.
Because I actually found myself making more isk per mission now. They took out some crappy 50-70k bounty rats and put some 125-140+ bounty, battlecruiser-rats instead.
I found this change great, not only missions became more challenging (well, at least a bit), but also more rewarding, bounty-wise that is. Obviously they didn't adjust the Agent reward, but it's ok, I bet they'll address this shortly.
Also, a revamp every once in a while is certainly interesting, otherwise doing the same stuff over and again would become boring as hell... and it actuallly was heading that way.
And, if as you say, they want to force people into pvp and 0.0, to the point of turning missions into an amazing waste of time, then I'll just go play something else.
I'm not ready nor willing to pvp at the moment, need more time to become competitive enough. I would say that if they included the whole agent and mission system, it's because they want to give their customers some options.
But if they then turn those options into mere, simple crappy lures, continuosly nerfing them to keep pushing and pushing people into 0.0 and pvp, well... I wouldn't precisely say it'd be a wise idea.
So I think that they'll actually round up agent rewards, too, to meet the increased mission challenge. Or at least fix any screw ups they accidentaly came up with with the last patch.
Simply put, for now, if they try to push me into 0.0, they'll push me out of the game instead. And man, you know I ain't the only one.
So I believe, and hope, they keep the agent system running and healthy. It's wrong to suppose that nerfing agents or missions will end up turning people into pvp'ers. It'll just make 'em lose customers.
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Farrellus Cameron
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Posted - 2006.06.23 03:15:00 -
[4]
I run missions and enjoy doing it. I make a fair amount of isk doing it also. Do I make isk hand-over-fist so that I can run a small corp on it, or have no concerns about isk ever? No, but I can live with that.
I don't farm missions, I play them. I think a vast majority of the players are the same way. So I don't believe that these changes will have a substantial effect at all. There is a noisy minority of people who were exploiting these farms to basically have unlimited resources, but I don't think that many people were really doing it. I have not noticed any reduction in the rewards, and for those who they have decreased for, I think the comment about them building back up is absolutely correct. If people remember, when you first start doing missions for the agent the pay-out is always very low, but then it steadily increases, sometimes dropping back down, but it's not static.
Anyways, the sky is not falling, everything will primarily keep going a long the same as it ever has.
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Raider Zero
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Posted - 2006.06.23 03:50:00 -
[5]
You know, I have to own up and admit that I may have jumped to conclusions. After a couple days now with the new missions, and after the rewards and times have started to fall in line, I am doing just fine in my career as a mission runner.
Since I was not one of the exploiters to begin with, I have to agree with the above posts that the addition of BC and dest. rats to the missions with accompanying larger bounties is welcome.
Not much to say other than that I'm Minmatar enough to admit when I'm wrong.
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Dimitrius Zabelle
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Posted - 2006.06.23 03:55:00 -
[6]
Missions being harder make me want to run them even more actually, not push me away. I enjoy missions, especially when they are a challange. I enjoy doing level 3s in a cruiser rather than a BC or BS because its more of a challange and more fun. Sure i earn less money in the same space of time as if i used a BS, but thats not too much of a problem. Not everybody runs missions just to earn money, some do it because they like to.
The non-mission runners seem to ALL have some odd idea that anybody who runs missions just grinds through them day after day earning money, doesnt do anything else and only does it for money. But that isnt true.
The EvE economy wont be destroyed by this at all.
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Lorette
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Posted - 2006.06.23 04:30:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Lorette on 23/06/2006 04:30:11
Tbh i havent really noticed a large change in the difficulty of the missions, some take longer now due to better BS's tanks but i can do everything in my 200mill ship (ie no faction or better mods) just as i could before.
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Contralto
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Posted - 2006.06.23 07:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lorette
Edited by: Lorette on 23/06/2006 04:30:11
Tbh i havent really noticed a large change in the difficulty of the missions, some take longer now due to better BS's tanks but i can do everything in my 200mill ship (ie no faction or better mods) just as i could before.
Wait till you get the new lvl 4 deadspace version of "Mordus headhunters" its in no way comparable to the old and still offered version. More like the HC V last room Amarr fleet. I counted 68 ships including 5 ravens using Juggernaught Torpedoes. over 40 aggro when attacked.
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Cheyenne Shadowborn
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Posted - 2006.06.23 08:21:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Cheyenne Shadowborn on 23/06/2006 08:23:00
Originally by: Derrys
Mission rewards are computed dynamically. I don't know exactly how, but I'm sure it has something to do with the average length of time it takes to finish a mission, how many times people lose ships in it, etc.
The exact super-secret formula is:
(((expected mission time + number of enemies) / 1000000) + (random() * random() * random() * the difference between the eclyptic alignment of Mars and the number of seconds since the last crash of Tranquility).
There's no other explaination why I keep getting these lvl 3 missions where the agent expects five enemies and gives me 30k or something and then there are six waves of stuff that keeps me busy for an hour.
Or maybe their own intelligence agents just suck 
-----------------------------------------------------
"At least freelancer keeps the physics realistic."
-- SINKFIST |
Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2006.06.23 16:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Derrys
It's possible that CCP are planning to nerf mission rewards in the future.
Uh???
Uh, what??
What in the future? CCP have been nerfing mission rewards with every patch since Exodus. And I do mean every patch.
Whatever you've been smoking, you really might want to switch brands.
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Kadarin
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Posted - 2006.06.23 21:01:00 -
[11]
The post-patch missions I've done have been fine in terms of bounties, loot drops (haven't done the IO mission yet), and rewards. As it is now, I run them with two accounts in tandem (one Nighthawk, one Raven), and go through them like they're nothing. For example, in the first stage of Worlds Collide, my Nighthawk can tank 6 NPC BS and 5 BC simultaneously, without having to warp out.
I want to see extremely hard missions with rewards to match. I want missions that are unpredictable, and fun..
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vile56
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Posted - 2006.06.23 21:18:00 -
[12]
i dont even have 1 lvl 2 agent and i make off just fine
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Fellfresse
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:38:00 -
[13]
is it normaly to warp out from a lvl3 mission again and again to prevent shiploss? i think since the last update
the missions r too heavy. btw... im not a noob [joined
02.18.2006] but cant fly a bs atm. is it now a must have for a lvl 3 mission? hmm 
some peeps younger than me in game
have they bc's maybe one or two weeks, wat should they do?
should they ask for each mission somebody to help them?
ccp, it's on u i suggest.
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Lorette
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Posted - 2006.06.23 23:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Contralto
Originally by: Lorette
Edited by: Lorette on 23/06/2006 04:30:11
Tbh i havent really noticed a large change in the difficulty of the missions, some take longer now due to better BS's tanks but i can do everything in my 200mill ship (ie no faction or better mods) just as i could before.
Wait till you get the new lvl 4 deadspace version of "Mordus headhunters" its in no way comparable to the old and still offered version. More like the HC V last room Amarr fleet. I counted 68 ships including 5 ravens using Juggernaught Torpedoes. over 40 aggro when attacked.
Did it yesterday actually, was quite a fun mission and i didnt use my 2nd repper more for more than 4 cycles during the whole mission. It was just a slaughterhouse mission really, 15.8mill in bounties+payout is nice aswell + almost everything drops loot.
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Darineah Charach
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Posted - 2006.06.24 00:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Fellfresse
is it normaly to warp out from a lvl3 mission again and again to prevent shiploss? i think since the last update
the missions r too heavy. btw... im not a noob [joined
02.18.2006] but cant fly a bs atm. is it now a must have for a lvl 3 mission? hmm
some peeps younger than me in game
have they bc's maybe one or two weeks, wat should they do?
should they ask for each mission somebody to help them?
ccp, it's on u i suggest.
er, I am a peep younger than (you by over a month). I can't fly a BS and i use a T1 fitted BC in lvl 3 missions. Last time i had to warp was a long time ago now. I find all the Level 3 missions do-able with minimal stress and no need to warp out. Couple of them get hairy sometimes and ironically those are the ones i look forward to the most. TBH i think you should check out the ship setup forum or ask for some specific advice if you're struggling through Lvl 3's in a BC. Especially if you're in anything other than a Cyclone cos that's what i fly and they are NOT designed for NPC engagements. If you're in a Ferox....for shame.
Making the missions less farmable is a GOOD thing. Making missions more challenging is also a GOOD thing. Kudos to the OP for admitting he was wrong. I got suckered by the massive outcry as well until i actually went in and tried them out. I've never been a mission farmer, don't see the point to be honest as i make plenty of isk just running them through. Personally i'd like to see Lvl 1+2 missions tweaked because it is my belief a lot of people who complain about mission runners making too much money stopped there as they were so boring. If they'd stuck with them they'd realise once they hit Lvl 3's that we face just as much risk for our reward as most, and a lot more than most rat hunters.
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Boxing Kangaroo
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Fellfresse
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Posted - 2006.06.24 00:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Fellfresse on 24/06/2006 00:29:25
Originally by: Darineah Charach
er, I am a peep younger than (you by over a month). I can't fly a BS and i use a T1 fitted BC in lvl 3 missions. Last time i had to warp was a long time ago now. I find all the Level 3 missions do-able with minimal stress and no need to warp out. Couple of them get hairy sometimes and ironically those are the ones i look forward to the most. TBH i think you should check out the ship setup forum or ask for some specific advice if you're struggling through Lvl 3's in a BC. Especially if you're in anything other than a Cyclone cos that's what i fly and they are NOT designed for NPC engagements. If you're in a Ferox....for shame.
Making the missions less farmable is a GOOD thing. Making missions more challenging is also a GOOD thing. Kudos to the OP for admitting he was wrong. I got suckered by the massive outcry as well until i actually went in and tried them out. I've never been a mission farmer, don't see the point to be honest as i make plenty of isk just running them through. Personally i'd like to see Lvl 1+2 missions tweaked because it is my belief a lot of people who complain about mission runners making too much money stopped there as they were so boring. If they'd stuck with them they'd realise once they hit Lvl 3's that we face just as much risk for our reward as most, and a lot more than most rat hunters.
k here it is... my fitting for my ferox
highslot: 5 arbalest heavy launchers with the right damagetype for sure
1 darkblood-medium nosferatu for the frigs
last one is a loot-laser^^ small tractor beam I
medslot: 10 mn ab II / shieldboost amplyfier I / schieldbooster II / 2x invulnerability field II
lowslot: 2x ballistic control II / gravimetric backup array I / internal forcefield array I
could u say me wat is wrong with my fitting?
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Darineah Charach
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Posted - 2006.06.24 00:55:00 -
[17]
k here it is... my fitting for my ferox
highslot: 5 arbalest heavy launchers with the right damagetype for sure
1 darkblood-medium nosferatu for the frigs
last one is a loot-laser^^ small tractor beam I
medslot: 10 mn ab II / shieldboost amplyfier I / schieldbooster II / 2x invulnerability field II
lowslot: 2x ballistic control II / gravimetric backup array I / internal forcefield array I
could u say me wat is wrong with my fitting?
Tricky question to be honest cos the fitting doesn't look so bad. I'd kill for some of that kit in fact.
I think you'd be better served dropping the Boost amp for a hardener. My Midslots look like this: 3x rat specific hardeners, Large shield Extender, Med shield booster. With The Ferox resist bonus vs my cyclones boost bonus though, the amp may be preferable to a hardener. I'd suggest dropping the backup array for a PDS too. That little guy does just enough for me in cap/shield recharge to keep me in the fight.
Other than that maybe it's tactics. I always pick 1 target and click keep at range, then i lock the guys around him and get into it. This way i stay away from a lot of guns and don't aggro whole rooms. Don't think you need the AB, you've got a tractor for picking up loot. Nos...hmmm possibly better off with another light gun for frigs. 2 light guns and some light/med drones should do the trick. I use light missiles and medium drones for frigs, Artillery for everything else. Tactics though is the biggest thing.
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Boxing Kangaroo
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Taaii
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Posted - 2006.06.24 01:52:00 -
[18]
My ferox set which i dont have to warp out of..
Highs : 5 heavy launchers, 1 NoS, 1 Tractor Beam
Medium : 3 T2 Shield Extenders, 2 hardeners (faction dependant)
Lows : 2 x T2 BCU, 2 x Shield Power Relay
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Taaii
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Posted - 2006.06.24 01:53:00 -
[19]
Skills like guided missle precision, drones IV or V make a huge difference as in they *****frigates.
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Lucius Beck
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Posted - 2006.06.24 01:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Fellfresse
Edited by: Fellfresse on 24/06/2006 00:29:25
k here it is... my fitting for my ferox
highslot: 5 arbalest heavy launchers with the right damagetype for sure
1 darkblood-medium nosferatu for the frigs
last one is a loot-laser^^ small tractor beam I
medslot: 10 mn ab II / shieldboost amplyfier I / schieldbooster II / 2x invulnerability field II
lowslot: 2x ballistic control II / gravimetric backup array I / internal forcefield array I
could u say me wat is wrong with my fitting?
A shield booster on a Ferox? Tsk, tsk, tsk. Rid yourself of that and the boost amp. Ferox is a passive tank. Instead of those throw on an extra T2 hardener and a T2 Large Extender. In the lows, drop the GBA and maybe one BCS II if you need more shield tank and add 2 Power Diagnostic IIs. You should be sitting pretty with that. Oh and drop the NOS for another TB for quick clean up. If you're still having tank problems, remove the AB for another hardener or extender. Throw in some rat specific light drones and be on your way. You shouldn't have too many problems with this setup but if you do, you can always warp out.
This setup has always worked for me. 
LB
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Herring
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Posted - 2006.06.24 03:41:00 -
[21]
Quote:
A dynamic economy, is it not a wonderful thing?
Change missions to make it harder to earn isk in empire. Check.
Players either begin finding new careers or move to 0.0 where they can join in the lagfests or fend for themselves on belt rats and hopefully not get gate ganked too often. OK, fine.
There is an issue that CCP needs to get a grip on though. If less people are running missions and less income is being earned from NPC's, while at the same time more ships are being destroyed and modules along with them, we have a recipe for DE-flation. The same modules will increase in cost exponentially, as there will be less currency in circulation and also less modules to purchase.
Is this by design? Possibly. Maybe CCP feels that pirates and older players have been getting the short end of the stick. Maybe this is in response to all the 'Oh look, another newb running L4's in a Raven' whines. That's all well and good, I will adapt.
I just want this post to be the first to say "I told you so." When 2 months after Kali Arbalest modules are 100 million each and Faction loot is right up there with BPO's. Faction warfare will only increase the number of ships destroyed as it will create perilous PvP in high-sec empire space (better be some heavy rewards or who would do this?), thus increasing the demand for modules and ships even more.
So, while I would like to proven wrong on this point, I don't think that I will. The other issue is that supply/demand curves are fairly volatile and a 5% decrease in the total amount of isk in circulation could very well sway in-game prices exponentially.
In the end, the rich will of course, get richer and it will be harder for newbs to get good stuff. That's probably what CCP is going for, since the new skills are under-powered and over-difficult and too many newbs are catching too many decent->good players too quickly. In the absence of skills that make a big difference, the only way to ensure the power of the experienced players is to ensure they stay wealthier and have better equipment. That is what the mission running changes will do.
Of course, there are always going to be newbs who are hooked on the game and are willing to buy isk with cash from the macro miners and other weathly exploiters who have already made the huge sums, so maybe the economical shift in-game will raise the price of isk out of game and really make things interesting.
In summary, I recognize that this post is kind of all over the place and not necessarily fit for one thread. However, it is tied together by the common theme that fundamental changes to missioning is likely to have far-reaching effects and it does not seem to have been well thought out (as evidenced by never appearing on test servers or in patch notes). I care about this universe, and would like to continue to be involved, but I have also quit other games where the staff decided to get a little power-hungry and "balance" a little too much. Please, CCP consider what effects 'minor' changes like these will have.
BTW, if you want people to move to 0.0, you actually need to weaken the existing alliances, not strengthen them. The people who want an alliance-style "second job" type of EVE life are already in 0.0-it's those of us who appreciate open-ended, free, undirected play who are still in empire and these changes give alliances more targets and shift loot to experienced pirates, but in the end I believe you'll find they go too far in to that end and the pendulum will need to swing back.
All part of the great plan to get people to 0.0. Hopefully, there will be new mining ships soon to dangle the carrot and give them a different kind of incentive...
Wishing for better mining ships in a system near you. |
Malcom Micawber
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Posted - 2006.06.24 14:39:00 -
[22]
Hello Everybody. This is my first post on the forums after 18 months ingame. I never wanted to write anything in here because I was satisfied how things went most of the time. I choose minmatar and skilled large artillery (and aotucannons meanwhile) and have almost 8 million sp in gunnery. I also skilled everything for a nice armor tank. And finally I started LVL4 missions a few weeks ago. It was OK. I wasn't able to do them all, but a few were OK isk/time wise. But after the patch I didn't manage to complete even one of them. So what am I doing wrong. Fitting should be OK as others use the same. Skill shouldn't be a problem since I can fit most of the T2 stuff. If ccp wanted people to do missions in gangs they should have brought lvl5. I am really sad and think I should leave the EVE universe for a while. Everything I skilled and worked for in the last year doesn't seem to make sense anymore. And I think Raider Zero is right. This game is moving into a strange direction.
Anyway... have fun.
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Hex'Caliber
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Posted - 2006.06.24 15:35:00 -
[23]
No offence but some of you people need to be more flexible in your mission running approach. I have 3 + mil sp (Char is short 3 months training, due to work commitments) and run level three missions in my celestis cruiser. Here is the setup for most of my level 3 mission running. BTW, notice I am a gallen using a gallen ship doing everything a gallen shouldnFt in this setup. Two Arabalest heavy launchers, two regulated ion phase cannons in the High slots. In the med slots, ys8 ab sometimes swapped out for an x5 proto Webber for use against aggressive frigates, t2 med shield booster, large shield extender, and two active hardeners (npc specific). In the low slots T2 Ballistic control, one damage control and a pds.
For some missions like the new mordus head-hunters I will swap in Arabalest assault launchers and two prototype dual 150Fs. In this mission I will actually run at the npcFs and get right in amongst them, I take out the frigs in very short order using this set up. I donFt mind making a tactical withdrawal occasionally, it allows me to gather my senses and regroup ready for my next run.
Using these two setups, I walk all level three missions with relative ease. I am just tuning my bs setup for level 4 missions now, but I am already considering dropping down to a bc for level 4Fs and will probably do so once I have trained a couple more skills to fit some new t2 kit on it. I may even continue to use my celestis setup for some level fours, bigger is not always better.
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Malcom Micawber
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Posted - 2006.06.24 22:18:00 -
[24]
OK, I might have been a little upset this afternoon when writing my first post. But I am not new to mission running and I never had a problem doing lvl3 (didn't do them for a while now). But now some lvl4 missions are just a bit too hard for me and a standard tempest. I tried several fittings with autocannons and artillery but nothings as well as several tactics but nothing seems to work out. Missions in general seem to be all about tanking. So maybe I should get a sleipnir and try to get my resis as maxed out as possible. I just don't know what I am doing wrong. And I didn't like from the very first lvl1 mission, that the only "tactic" to do when doing missions is tanking. Just as an example: Why can NPCs use MWD and I cannot? Anyway, I am thinking about quitting EVE for the summer and maybe try again in winter when I am a bit more bored. ;)
Greetings...
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Jinx Barker
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Posted - 2006.06.25 09:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Contralto
Originally by: Lorette
Edited by: Lorette on 23/06/2006 04:30:11
Tbh i havent really noticed a large change in the difficulty of the missions, some take longer now due to better BS's tanks but i can do everything in my 200mill ship (ie no faction or better mods) just as i could before.
Wait till you get the new lvl 4 deadspace version of "Mordus headhunters" its in no way comparable to the old and still offered version. More like the HC V last room Amarr fleet. I counted 68 ships including 5 ravens using Juggernaught Torpedoes. over 40 aggro when attacked.
I have run the "New" Mordus mission about 6 times so far.
Yes, it takes longer, yes, there are ALLOT of ships, Yes, it is Dead Space, Yes, it looks terrible and difficult. However, it took me about 2 hrs the first time, 1.5 hrs, the second time, and about 1 hr each subsequent time. Little practice makes perfect.
The Rats, they are little slow, if you know what you doing, adjust your perspective, and think "outside the box" the mission is doable and is enjoyable.
I am for one am very happy with most mission changes, they keep me on my toes at the moment, till I get adjusted to them.
Eventually we will all run all the "new" missions just as effectivley as the old ones.
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