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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
4462
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
With the Crius release, to be published July 22nd, we will see a major overhaul of Industry in EVE Online. While you can read up on these changes and try some features on the test server, we would like to talk about the principles behind in the Industry in EVE Online.
What is Industry supposed to be, what can you expect, what are the fun key elements and how can you shape, influence and profit from the industry landscape in EVE Online? Read all about this in CCP Greyscale's latest dev blog Principles of Industry in EVE Online! CCP Phantom - Senior Community Representative - Volunteer Manager |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
667
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gotta say -- it is very satisfying to hear it said that industry in eve is all about working at scale. This has obviously been true forever, but it doesn't make it any less satisfying to hear. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3473
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
\o/
The philosophy behind changes is always good to have public. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
483
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
This devblog was a great idea and I think it'd be worth publishing more of these to get a sense of what devs are trying to do with a system when they make changes: it lets people understand what changes they disagree with are because the dev is going for a fundamentally different vision of how the thing should work, or when you think that you agree but think there are improvements that could be suggested. |
Dread Nanana
Action Super Dupper Test Corp
10
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.
If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.
If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.
Cheers...
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ChromeStriker
0ne Percent. Odin's Call
738
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
.... 1000isk rifters?.... please....
.... needs a graph...
No Worries |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3639
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dread Nanana wrote:As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.
If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.
If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.
Cheers...
On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3473
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Dread Nanana wrote:As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.
If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.
If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.
Cheers...
On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be.
The major difference is:
Your copy slaves may need to do invention too. But they'll probably have most of the skills required already, due to you using them for manufacturing T2 things, right? Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Lord Echon
Adventurers
4
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yeah, having a devblog like this is a good idea. Explaining your ideas and intentions in broad terms before going heavily into details provides a nice overview. |
Javajunky
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
103
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
+1 for making it interesting.
You were already ok in my book when you shrunk the size of a mining crystal. |
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3188
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Love how you left out the small part about how easy and simple it is to do industry, and it will be dead easy to calculate the huge losses high sec now faces given the massive advantages null sec has been given.
It does not matter how smart a player is if his null sec competition has an insurmountable advantage in all aspects of the manufacturing process, and soon the invention process.
Yup, the smart industrialists in high sec will soon be making the only economic decision that matters: Get fitted with a null sec yoke, or quit all your industrial accounts. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Bam Stroker
Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition.
197
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
To respond to the last paragraph: I did like the nature of this blog and I look forward to seeing more like it.
Detailed blogs about nuts and bolts changes are obviously crucial but I'd like more of these "big picture" blogs that let us get inside your heads and show us what you're thinking. EVE Down Under 2014 (Australia's very own fanfest) 21st to 23rd November 2014 in Sydney, Australia www.evedownunder.com |
Samuel Triptee
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
32
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
An overall look at a developer's goals and philosophy concerning a given part of EVE is very helpful to those of us not directly in that area of gameplay.
The industrialists need the nitty gritty number crunching mechanics of the updated system(s). However, most other players only need to know that something potentially big is happening. We can get a good idea of how and if we will be affected by reading a devblog like this one.
This big picture view helps me make decisions to:
1. Research further for how the changes affect me 2. Research further because it looks like a great style of gameplay to try 3. Do not research further, but know I may have to adapt a bit.
Great idea.. please continue with blogs like this. |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
114
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Querns wrote:Gotta say -- it is very satisfying to hear it said that industry in eve is all about working at scale. This has obviously been true forever, but it doesn't make it any less satisfying to hear.
As one of the lucky few who realized this very early on in my industrial/eve career it is amazing to see this happening too. I ditched invention within a matter of weeks of having the skills as it was just too painful. The UI changes alone is like giving entire games worth of industrial content back to those of us who play this way. Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes
0
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Posted - 2014.07.02 15:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:mynnna wrote:Dread Nanana wrote:As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.
If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.
If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.
Cheers...
On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be. The major difference is: Your copy slaves may need to do invention too. But they'll probably have most of the skills required already, due to you using them for manufacturing T2 things, right? (With the complaints we've been drowning in from T2 BPO holders, that suggests they're not seeing things the same way as the Original commenter)
1. you can roughly sustain 4-5 invention toons with 1 copy toon currently on TQ. (at least for modules) 2. skill requirements for building are much lower than for inventions. and getting the other invention toons up to the same level will take a lot of time. 3. the current invention times of 8+h make it impossible for a player with family and such to run 1-2 invention batches to get enough bpc to install build jobs. (assuming you want 10 build jobs per toon) 4. currently on TQ you can react to market fluctuations/manipulations if you have a decent amount of t1 bpcs, which you normally will have after a while. to do the same thing after crius, you would need to have t2 bpc piles. and yes we ruined more than one try of people playing with prices in jita. ;)
from all those points ... only the last one meets the theme they want. you can pile up t2 bpcs in the hope they will become useful again and then you can go in. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3640
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Airi Cho wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:mynnna wrote:Dread Nanana wrote:As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.
If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.
If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.
Cheers...
On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be. The major difference is: Your copy slaves may need to do invention too. But they'll probably have most of the skills required already, due to you using them for manufacturing T2 things, right? (With the complaints we've been drowning in from T2 BPO holders, that suggests they're not seeing things the same way as the Original commenter) 1. you can roughly sustain 4-5 invention toons with 1 copy toon currently on TQ. (at least for modules) 2. skill requirements for building are much lower than for inventions. and getting the other invention toons up to the same level will take a lot of time. 3. the current invention times of 8+h make it impossible for a player with family and such to run 1-2 invention batches to get enough bpc to install build jobs. (assuming you want 10 build jobs per toon) 4. currently on TQ you can react to market fluctuations/manipulations if you have a decent amount of t1 bpcs, which you normally will have after a while. to do the same thing after crius, you would need to have t2 bpc piles. and yes we ruined more than one try of people playing with prices in jita. ;) from all those points ... only the last one meets the theme they want. you can pile up t2 bpcs in the hope they will become useful again and then you can go in.
Here's the point that refutes every single complaint you're mounting: The changes to invention in Crius are incidental changes resulting from touching industry as a whole, and invention will get its own proper rework afterwards. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2063
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 16:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kind of reminds me exploration hype around Odyssey. Easier UI, better transparency about skills and effects... We got click fest + loot vomit + windshield wiper. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes
0
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Here's the point that refutes every single complaint you're mounting: The changes to invention in Crius are incidental changes resulting from touching industry as a whole, and invention will get its own proper rework afterwards.
As suggested in the other thread already ... they could lower the invention times to 33-50% of the currently proposed times. you would still compensate for the copy time reduction without screwing over the t2 inventions for weeks. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3189
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 16:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Airi Cho wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:mynnna wrote:Dread Nanana wrote:As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.
If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.
If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.
Cheers...
On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be. The major difference is: Your copy slaves may need to do invention too. But they'll probably have most of the skills required already, due to you using them for manufacturing T2 things, right? (With the complaints we've been drowning in from T2 BPO holders, that suggests they're not seeing things the same way as the Original commenter) 1. you can roughly sustain 4-5 invention toons with 1 copy toon currently on TQ. (at least for modules) 2. skill requirements for building are much lower than for inventions. and getting the other invention toons up to the same level will take a lot of time. 3. the current invention times of 8+h make it impossible for a player with family and such to run 1-2 invention batches to get enough bpc to install build jobs. (assuming you want 10 build jobs per toon) 4. currently on TQ you can react to market fluctuations/manipulations if you have a decent amount of t1 bpcs, which you normally will have after a while. to do the same thing after crius, you would need to have t2 bpc piles. and yes we ruined more than one try of people playing with prices in jita. ;) from all those points ... only the last one meets the theme they want. you can pile up t2 bpcs in the hope they will become useful again and then you can go in. Here's the point that refutes every single complaint you're mounting: The changes to invention in Crius are incidental changes resulting from touching industry as a whole, and invention will get its own proper rework afterwards.
Let's assume that, for the moment, you are correct. In the meantime, while you direct CCP on the changes to invention, while invention remains as it is, his comments are accurate.
But in reality, we all know that null sec is going to get massive advantages in invention, just as they were given in the manufacturing process, so the whole point becomes moot, unless you are talking null sec industrialist competing with other null sec industrialists. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Kacik Trest
Hypergalactic Holdings Ltd.
0
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
I appreciate the concept behind the creation of this blog; however, unfortunately, I would wager it reads as pure advertising to any player with even a moderate level of experience.
"Firstly, industry should be easy to understand" The concept of industry is easy to understand. Then reality hits the player.
Unfortunately, if a new -ish player were take the above statement as gospel and begin industry, they will learn just hard how it is. That same player may recall this dev blog or other fluff pieces like it and some will likely become disenfranchised and trust the devs as much as bittervets do.
If CCP wants to participate in more advertising that is both fine and probably a good idea since new-player retention rates could really use some help. However, leave advertising to the ad folks. Don't mask it as a dev blog.
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
2413
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Kind of reminds me exploration hype around Odyssey. Easier UI, better transparency about skills and effects... We got click fest + loot vomit + windshield wiper.
The UI is on SiSi right now, and we're actively soliciting feedback. Go test it, and tell us how you find it :) |
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Amarisen Gream
Galactic Republic of Entrepreneurs and Militiamen
35
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
+ one. I love these kinds of things from Devs. It at least shows that you care.
That "Oh this is whats coming. Look here. . . link. Check here. .. Link. was a waste of everyones time.
This was much better. back to farming and stocking up my tritanium! xoxo Amarisen Gream http://thegreameve.wordpress.com -Looking to improve the player experience-
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Airi Cho
Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes
0
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Kind of reminds me exploration hype around Odyssey. Easier UI, better transparency about skills and effects... We got click fest + loot vomit + windshield wiper. The UI is on SiSi right now, and we're actively soliciting feedback. Go test it, and tell us how you find it :)
Does the same goes for balancing? |
Babbet Bunny
State War Academy Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Still wish the teams were player teams and not a 4th market. The rest is great and will give meaning back to standings and increase POS use.
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1457
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
it's a bit sad to see how much potential is lost because of bad corp mechanics.
i really hope that this is one of the next steps in the big eve development plan.
the overall ideas are the right ones, the changes point in the right direction the right values are on the table and as long as this is not a fire and forget deployment we should see some good consequences.
GRRR Goons |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
2413
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Airi Cho wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Kind of reminds me exploration hype around Odyssey. Easier UI, better transparency about skills and effects... We got click fest + loot vomit + windshield wiper. The UI is on SiSi right now, and we're actively soliciting feedback. Go test it, and tell us how you find it :) Does the same goes for balancing?
It's in a near-ready state, but we're not there quite yet. We are planning on calling a "milestone" in the next few weeks, listing out the remaining known issues and then doing a fresh round of feedback based on that.
Gilbaron wrote:it's a bit sad to see how much potential is lost because of bad corp mechanics.
i really hope that this is one of the next steps in the big eve development plan.
It is :)
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Dread Nanana
Action Super Dupper Test Corp
10
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Dread Nanana wrote:As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.
If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.
If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.
Cheers...
On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be.
Since the entire point of goonswarm CSM vote rigging has been to wreck high sec, please, at least don't treat high sec population as a bunch of idiots.
1. copying has never been important timesink for module inventions 2. I'm talking about T2 modules - ships were never easy to invent anyway 3. material costs are not the primary costs for many T2 modules - it's time and effort. 4. reduction in manufacturing times only really benefits T2 BPO holders.
Not everyone flies T2 ships, but almost everyone uses T2 modules.
An invention attempt of 8h may as well be 1d.
UI changes are good. Invention time changes, on the other hand, who proposed that calamity?? And why do it now when there is suppose to be a "invention fix patch later"?
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Airi Cho
Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes
0
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:It's in a near-ready state, but we're not there quite yet. We are planning on calling a "milestone" in the next few weeks, listing out the remaining known issues and then doing a fresh round of feedback based on that.
well I am quite sure you can tweak invention times without going back to square 1.
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Fade Toblack
Per.ly The 20 Minuters
72
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yes this sort of devblog is good. Knowing the vision is good because then game changes can correctly be critiqued on whether they meet that vision, rather than being critiqued just because change is different. You only need to look back at the "future of null-sec" devblog that was done - a couple of years ago now? - and see how well that was received.
Obviously the second part of laying out a vision is then acting on it - even if it's in small steps - and not dropping it at a whim.
Note that I expect you're going to get a lot of grief in these comments from players because you're changing things, and making it so they can't run just Eve ISK-Per-Hour and be told what the most profitable industry action to take is.
Personally I'm looking forward to an industry game where there are more variables in the system that can't be guaranteed, and that have to be estimated. Introducing these, and other risks into industry is much need, and allows those of us who are willing to take more risks to potentially win bigger!
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Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
114
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Posted - 2014.07.02 16:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
Dread Nanana wrote: UI changes are good. Invention time changes, on the other hand, who proposed that calamity?? And why do it now when there is suppose to be a "invention fix patch later"?
There are a pair of 60 odd page threads with some really insightful discussion as to why. Would you like a link? Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
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