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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
52
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Posted - 2014.07.04 00:58:00 -
[121] - Quote
Lex Striker wrote:I have been an Eve Player now for over 6 years. I have been an active Online Game Player for close to 13 years and have tried many online games over those years. I have to admit, the CCP Devs have been the absolute best, hands down, in communicating with the Eve Online Player Base than any other online game I have been involved with. Most online game devs hardly ever try to communicate with their player base and usually end up shoving whatever developments they come up with down their player base's throats. Even though the CCP Devs/Management have not always been on good terms with the Eve Online Player Base, at least there is communication... which the vast majority of online games just do not come close to having. The thing I like is if a CCP Dev Post comes up, I have a choice of reading it or not... but it is still there. I like this, and it is a damn lot better than not having any post at all. Most other online game dev/player base communications involve fixing what has already been developed... with most future development already fixed in stone in a five year business plan... with hope that the game lasts that long. CCP Devs at least post what they would like to do and ask 'what do you all think?'. A discussion can take place and the CCP Devs can decide if they wish to continue this line of development or tweak what they are doing, and move on. I like this... and why Eve Online is the longest running online game by far that I have played continuously over my online gaming experience... having shelved so many others.
Now I have to admit, CCP has done things with Eve Online that I have not really liked... but so what? CCP is a business. They need to balance making money and pleasing their customers. Basically, I feel they have done the best in the gaming industry in doing that. As long as the CCP Devs believe that the Eve Online Player Base owns Eve Online, I will find it hard to move on to another game.
I wish you had divided this post in several, so I could give you the number of likes it deserved.
I agree with you fully. CCP has a much better communications policy than any other MMO I have ever played, and that says a lot.
Some of the gaming companies out there have no idea... truly have no idea, no exaggeration... they need to look at customer satisfaction.
One particular company runs a game of armorred combat from just after WW1 to the Korean conflict. They now also run a flight combat game of the same time span. They have been losing players badly and aren't even asking the players why. I came to EvE online just after giving up on their armored game.
I was rather surprised when I received an e-mail from them asking why I left (communications with other players revealed they didn't contact the others). I guess losing a player who specialized in artillery and had in excess of 19 thousand matches in the system was an alert to them.
I understand many of the things I told them in my reply were fixxed, but they made others even worse for 'play balance'. |
Ming The Merciless
Orbital Reclamation Services
9
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Posted - 2014.07.04 01:36:00 -
[122] - Quote
Thank you Greyscale for spelling out the idea behind where CCP wants to go with Industry and giving us key points of what that means. We are only at page 6 and we have seen many specific replies to those key points expounding on how different styles of game play interpret them. Which is something you touched on in your post explaining what good feedback looks like.
I however have only general feedback related to the posts content. Please post more of these; however, please post them well before the teams have spent weeks/months going down a path that they could have gotten input on before starting their work.
This would have been an excellent pre-cursor at the beginning of April to the 6 part broken down dev blogs that started at the end of April. Those 6 dev blogs about the key points you mention in this blog would have had a deeper context and people could have started out even more constructive in their feedback.
I've said my piece about the changes in other forum threads, the only thing I want to re-iterate here is that if you re-read this dev blog about the principles of the change through the eyes of a leader/content creator for a group of industrial focused players there isn't a whole lot of "We", "Us", "your corporation", "your alliance", or the concept of teams(of players) doing things together. There are a whole lot of 'you's referring the player singly and that is unfortunate as I believe what keeps people playing Eve isn't Eve by itself its doing it with other people.
Again, thank you for this vision into the CCP teams principles of the Industry changes and please pass on that more things like this can only help players understand the motivations/principles of the CCP team.
CSM folks who pass thru this thread, breakdowns of the vision/direction/principles like this are always information your constituents I'm sure would appreciate and you might be in a better place to explain your interpretations of the vision/direction/principles as understood from working with the CCP'rs more directly.
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vonDuck
Knights Templar ordre de eve brethren mmx
3
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Posted - 2014.07.04 02:20:00 -
[123] - Quote
JOATMOS Incorporated wrote:Came expecting poor excuse for implementing a poorly designed set of content changes which will only further the chokehold of power by a handful of groups.... Was not disappointed.
GG CCP, instead of giving industrialists tools which would enable collaborative team projects, like in game quota/demand tools so we could easily outsource parts of our production chains to other friends/allies, you give us "teams" of magical little elves which show up and tweak production slightly.
Instead of slightly reducing the number of production lines in factories or even putting in differing price schemes per production line in them to gently push things around.....you decide to create infinite production lines and then apply a costing formula over the top.
Your proposals to change the UI and make it better? Happy to see the attempt, not sure of the actual result quite yet.
But you are fixing a tactical problem with the UI, and creating a nightmare at the operational level with your other changes. Please, doing industry for a small alliance is enough of a chore already, why are you trying to make it even worse?
Exactly. Industry is still an ad hoc individual activity. There are mechanisms in the game that can be leveraged but still are not. It makes what could be an awesome, well-oiled machine within and between organizations in the game something that makes Minmatar technology look shiny and well thought out. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
443
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 02:56:00 -
[124] - Quote
Fluff piece - the devil is in the details. (If I want to read "feel good" fluff about best intentions, then I can go visit the Star Citizen website & forums - save me.)
A lot of questions have been asked about the details of the upcoming industry changes; few have been answered by the devs (although I will give credit to the Goon economic cabal for trying to hold CCP's end up in the forums).
C'mon, folks... a devblog doesn't need to be a monumental masterpiece of creative writing. Break the stuff into smaller pieces - even a devblog consisting of a single paragraph to cover a single sub-topic - and post it. Bad grammar, poor spelling, all lowercase - all ok with us.
We're hungry for the details, CCP - please feed us! |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1230
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Posted - 2014.07.04 04:02:00 -
[125] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:Quote:Firstly, industry should be easy to understand disagree... this is eve online. If you don't have a lot of learn.. if it's not a struggle to understand .. you aren't doing it right. Can't say that seems right about anything in EvE. When it comes to the basic mechanics this game feels like one of the most straightforward I've ever played. Not necessarily simple, just clear to understand how things interact once some basic effort is put forth finding out. It's figuring out how to use that to compete with others in most cases that gives the appearance of difficulty, so there is nothing wrong with industry itself being easy.
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Mackenzie Nolen
Xyjax
0
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Posted - 2014.07.04 04:29:00 -
[126] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:I like the idea that Devs will publish what they want to happen for an expansion, I like the idea that Devs will publish what they think should be happening afterwards. I don't like that devs have absolutely no clue that what they are doing is the exact opposite of what they state they want to be doing.
Everything in this post is dead on. The GUI feels like the kind of thing that happens when a designer is put in charge of something that needs to be functional above all else.
This is somehow simpler than what we have now?
Sisi is, as usual, so broken that it's hard to even tell how any of these changes are going to affect anything as you still can't even get accurate price quotes on anything industry related, let alone any sort of insight into the dynamic impact of these changes.
The barrier to entry for new players just went up, not down. The time to research those last few levels on BC/BS/cap BPs just went through the roof; but good news for any old players with 10/10 already, we will feel absolutely none of the pain that new industry characters will in trying to catch up on our insurmountable leads. Nevermind the cost of running multiple large POS's to remain competitive in hisec mfg as compared to the one small research POS you could manage before.
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Mackenzie Nolen
Xyjax
0
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Posted - 2014.07.04 04:35:00 -
[127] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:We're hungry for the details, CCP - please feed us!
All of the details have already been posted. There are a series of 6 different blogs covering the industry changes, starting back in March with the reprocessing changes. Nothing new or significantly different from what was proposed in those blogs for Kronos is being added in Crius. There are a few tweaks to BP "ranks" and activity times taken from the feedback threads, as well as some details about the POS changes that came in a later blog, but, uh.. yeah.. what rock have you been hiding under?
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Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
54
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Posted - 2014.07.04 10:32:00 -
[128] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:Quote:Firstly, industry should be easy to understand disagree... this is eve online. If you don't have a lot of learn.. if it's not a struggle to understand .. you aren't doing it right. Can't say that seems right about anything in EvE. When it comes to the basic mechanics this game feels like one of the most straightforward I've ever played. Not necessarily simple, just clear to understand how things interact once some basic effort is put forth finding out. It's figuring out how to use that to compete with others in most cases that gives the appearance of difficulty, so there is nothing wrong with industry itself being easy.
Yes, EvE online seems more like chess than checkers in many ways.
The rules regarding movement/use have some complexity, but not greatly.
The actual complexity comes in the actual play.
As somebody who will NOT be leaving high sec, I am watching all the aspects of the game. Industry is a big part of it. I will be adjusting and adapting. |
Chiralos
Chiral's Angels
13
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 10:37:00 -
[129] - Quote
This is exactly where industry should head. There actually needs to be a strategic industry game, an unstable equilibrium, not just skill up, buy up, and sit around with optimal efficiency.
Not that there aren't already aspects of this in industry and trade already. Just that more people should be able to have fun that way. |
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
54
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 10:44:00 -
[130] - Quote
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:The barrier to entry for new players just went up, not down.
This is a surprise?
EvE online is no longer a game for the new player (if it ever was). Nothing in the game is of "entry level" anymore.
A good example is the ease in which experianced players prey on noobs in high sec (ganking). Sure, the players who enjoy smashing helpless and inexperianced can (somewhat rightfully) say there's difficulty in setting up the ganks. The problem is their actions STILL convince new players to leave the game after the free trial account expires.
IF (and that's a big "IF") a new player stays after his trial account, industry and mining are two big reasons he might continue playing. CCP seems determined to make those as unfriendly as possible to the new player.
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3499
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 11:35:00 -
[131] - Quote
My own design philosophy for Eve:
Eve should be complex. It should not be complicated.
What I mean is: Eve is a whole bunch of simple concepts. Each concept should be easy to grasp on its own. The complexity comes from how those concepts interact with each other.
Complicated is where the underlying concepts aren't simple. Where you have to memorize things, because they're not obvious from context.
I'm not talking about the math involved in things. That can be complicated. Take missiles. Small things take less damage from big missiles. Fast things take less damage from big missiles. That's simple. The math actually governing it is harder. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
444
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 11:36:00 -
[132] - Quote
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:We're hungry for the details, CCP - please feed us! All of the details have already been posted. There are a series of 6 different blogs covering the industry changes, starting back in March with the reprocessing changes. Nothing new or significantly different from what was proposed in those blogs for Kronos is being added in Crius. There are a few tweaks to BP "ranks" and activity times taken from the feedback threads, as well as some details about the POS changes that came in a later blog, but, uh.. yeah.. what rock have you been hiding under? Probably the rock which is sitting on top of the rock you have been living under.
Those devblogs are two months old and the devs did not have all of the details figured out at that time. This is part of the reason why the industry changes were delayed to Crius and not released in Kronos, as originally planned.
In addition, there are a number of issues which were raised by the devs in the original devblogs, but never followed up on by them - not in later devblogs nor in the forums.
For example, I'd like to hear if CCP Greyscale has made any final decision with regards to reimbursing, or not, ME/PE levels above 10 on BPOs. I've posted the question a few times in different forum threads, during the past couple of months, but I haven't seen an answer from CCP yet. (If CCP Greyscale did post an answer, perhaps I was indeed under the rock at the time - in which case, I apologize.) |
Theo Sotken
Mother Knows Best Corporation
31
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 12:01:00 -
[133] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:My own design philosophy for Eve:
Eve should be complex. It should not be complicated.
What I mean is: Eve is a whole bunch of simple concepts. Each concept should be easy to grasp on its own. The complexity comes from how those concepts interact with each other.
Complicated is where the underlying concepts aren't simple. Where you have to memorize things, because they're not obvious from context.
I'm not talking about the math involved in things. That can be complicated. Take missiles. Small things take less damage from big missiles. Fast things take less damage from big missiles. That's simple. The math actually governing it is harder.
It is cheaper to do everything in Nullsec. You get more in Nullsec.
I think I'm getting the hang of it :) |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3207
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 13:41:00 -
[134] - Quote
Odoya wrote:7even0f9 wrote:Gotta say that as a dedicated industrialist for the last 5 years almost ,that im not welcomeing the new changes. CCP says its refined and focused on industrial work, but in fact what they have done is make it harder for us to make a liveing out of it. you have taken away the ability to remote reserch,copy and invent from stations to pos's while saying that its easier and quicker to stick multi million if not billion isk BPo's directly into pos's for a time advantage.
Lets get real for a second. No experianced industrialist in there right mind is going to put a billion isk plus bpo into a pos to copy or reserch with the new system as its too much to risk if we get wardecced and attacked.
And it will happen as i personaly know people in game who are swapping corps to get ready to solely wardec indy corps who have pos's, so they can take em out in the hopes of bpo's drops from labs. So all you have done is create more war and conflict and encourage assholes to be bigger assholes against the people who make them their equipment.
Secondly forceing industrialist to travel all over eve to make profit from stations near and far is just shortsighted. i wont be doing it and neither will many others ive talked too. In fact what we are going to do is stop manufacturing for the market and just do it for oursleves, as its all just too much effort for too little gain.
Bitter Vet you may so. i say im a realist.
you reduce the isk people can make from one patch to the next and expect people to just suck it up. well this little bunny has had enough. i run 13 accounts and 30 toons and have finaly decided to call it quits with industry work as its just getting all too hard. the last 7 subscriptions have lapsed and wont be renewed and am just going to operate on 3 accounts. and thats if i even keep playing.
The problem in this game is theres just too many assholes who seem to get there kicks from makeing other people's lives hell. And the number of them is increaseing from year to year, makeing it harder to recruit new players and even harder convinceing them that this used to be the best space MMO out there. Which of course now its not anymore thanks to CCP's short sightedness. I agree its hard to cater for all players. But it can be done. Ive sent CCp many emails over the years with idea's and suggestions to keep indy people interested in the game and to keep new people who come into the game safe. all of which have fallen on deaf ears. So keep going down the path and this game will be reduced to just one thing. Another game to look back on and say, yes i remember eve. it was really great game onece upon a time. Something to think on. It is crazy how the disincentives to play are mounting. High sec mining and ice mining are not viable activities for a new player who wants to experience success mastering the game basics with better equipment. Gut check that against what the representation of high sec is. Basic game logic is so fouled that the disincentives to grief are trivial and these changes are an extension of that broken logic. Why extend the risk for those of us who have put in a lot of real hours making significant investments of time and energy playing by the game logic? Now industrialists are being forced to expose years of built up assets to a risk of loss that is unreasonably disproportionate to the amount of time invested by moderately successful industrialists. There is a basic lack of parity here being made worse. It costs a company more to acquire new customers than it does to keep existing customers happy.
Yup.
Everyone, ignore the PCU counts comparing the week of July 1st 2012, 2013, and 2014, or just about any other date this summer. Ignore the fact that CCP marketing is suddenly no longer trumpeting "x years continuing growth". Ignore all the high sec posters, and multiple bloggers, warning that they are pulling the plug on their indy accounts because high sec industry is finished. Ignore the fact that the release date is 18 days away with a ton of unanswered questions, and numerous people say that there is a lot of broken stuff still on Singularity.
Null sec will pick up the slack with a massive surge in subs that will far outstrip the high sec losses, or at least that is what the cartels have promised CCP. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Mackenzie Nolen
Xyjax
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 14:57:00 -
[135] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:In addition, there are a number of issues which were raised by the devs in the original devblogs, but never followed up on by them - not in later devblogs nor in the forums.
For example, I'd like to hear if CCP Greyscale has made any final decision with regards to reimbursing, or not, ME/PE levels above 10 on BPOs. I've posted the question a few times in different forum threads, during the past couple of months, but I haven't seen an answer from CCP yet. (If CCP Greyscale did post an answer, perhaps I was indeed under the rock at the time - in which case, I apologize.)
Those aren't issues the devs raised, those are issues the players are raising. The details of the changes are well covered. Did you see any details about reimbursement for BPOs past 10/10? No. And it's now two weeks until this goes live. So there will be no reimbursement; anyone who thinks this is still an "open issue" is delusional.
The changes as described by the devs are going live on the 22nd. Between the blogs and the follow up dev posts in the forum threads, the details of the mechanics changes are completely fleshed out. There are no open issues beyond the outstanding bugs, just plenty of things people aren't necessarily happy with. |
Skrizzy
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 16:13:00 -
[136] - Quote
As long as the changes do not take down the possibilities to earn ISK as a solo/small corp industrialist/inventionist casual player in high sec its not going to be a huge account killer. But if it does it sure will be.
Most accounts are still casual players in high sec, low sec is too dangerous and null is safe but very boring and lonely for a casual player.
I have quite a few accounts, and one have been living as a neg 10 guy in low sec since the game started brought out the most fun, but that is nothing for a casual player as you almost always need friends and/or scouts online to be able to even undock.
There is still a lot of fun ( PVP) in the game, but as a non alliance gamer you need a way to fund the fun things over time and manufacturing paired with inventions have been a way, that have been a bit challenging, but there are a few things that gives you a small reward. Funding the gaming that way make it worth to log in almost every day to do some change, start new manufacturing and inventions or change prices in the market. And after some weeks doing that you have some isk to go out and have some fun PVPing for a weekend or so. Another way to fund fun things is to run Incursions, but that is boring as hell and need your 100% attention 6-10 hour a day for a weekend or so every month. That makes it a "no thing to do" for a casual player. Also that is for chars that have almost all lvl5s in the ships they are flying. Ok I have but can not spend the time for that...
To be able to log in for 30 mins up to an hour daily to earn isk enough to be able to have fun or to get ISK for new ships or expensive modules is the challenges that CCP have to face.
If manufacturing and Invention changes to be only for the big alliances a lot of accounts will withdraw.
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Skrizzy
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2014.07.04 16:41:00 -
[137] - Quote
Skrizzy wrote:As long as the changes do not take down the possibilities to earn ISK as a solo/small corp industrialist/inventionist casual player in high sec its not going to be a huge account killer. But if it does it sure will be.
Most accounts are still casual players in high sec, low sec is too dangerous and null is safe but very boring and lonely for a casual player.
I have quite a few accounts, and one have been living as a neg 10 guy in low sec since the game started brought out the most fun, but that is nothing for a casual player as you almost always need friends and/or scouts online to be able to even undock.
There is still a lot of fun ( PVP) in the game, but as a non alliance gamer you need a way to fund the fun things over time and manufacturing paired with inventions have been a way, that have been a bit challenging, but there are a few things that gives you a small reward. Funding the gaming that way make it worth to log in almost every day to do some change, start new manufacturing and inventions or change prices in the market. And after some weeks doing that you have some isk to go out and have some fun PVPing for a weekend or so. Another way to fund fun things is to run Incursions, but that is boring as hell and need your 100% attention 6-10 hour a day for a weekend or so every month. That makes it a "no thing to do" for a casual player. Also that is for chars that have almost all lvl5s in the ships they are flying. Ok I have but can not spend the time for that...
To be able to log in for 30 mins up to an hour daily to earn isk enough to be able to have fun or to get ISK for new ships or expensive modules is the challenges that CCP have to face.
If manufacturing and Invention changes to be only for the big alliances a lot of accounts will withdraw.
By funding I not mean to PLEX my accounts, I can pay for game time but not for much more. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3208
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 19:33:00 -
[138] - Quote
Skrizzy wrote:Skrizzy wrote:As long as the changes do not take down the possibilities to earn ISK as a solo/small corp industrialist/inventionist casual player in high sec its not going to be a huge account killer. But if it does it sure will be.
Most accounts are still casual players in high sec, low sec is too dangerous and null is safe but very boring and lonely for a casual player.
I have quite a few accounts, and one have been living as a neg 10 guy in low sec since the game started brought out the most fun, but that is nothing for a casual player as you almost always need friends and/or scouts online to be able to even undock.
There is still a lot of fun ( PVP) in the game, but as a non alliance gamer you need a way to fund the fun things over time and manufacturing paired with inventions have been a way, that have been a bit challenging, but there are a few things that gives you a small reward. Funding the gaming that way make it worth to log in almost every day to do some change, start new manufacturing and inventions or change prices in the market. And after some weeks doing that you have some isk to go out and have some fun PVPing for a weekend or so. Another way to fund fun things is to run Incursions, but that is boring as hell and need your 100% attention 6-10 hour a day for a weekend or so every month. That makes it a "no thing to do" for a casual player. Also that is for chars that have almost all lvl5s in the ships they are flying. Ok I have but can not spend the time for that...
To be able to log in for 30 mins up to an hour daily to earn isk enough to be able to have fun or to get ISK for new ships or expensive modules is the challenges that CCP have to face.
If manufacturing and Invention changes to be only for the big alliances a lot of accounts will withdraw.
By funding I not mean to PLEX my accounts, I can pay for game time but not for much more.
Most casual players don't even read the forums, and have no idea this is coming. When July 22nd arrives, it will be like an anvil on their heads.
It will take them a month or 2 to realize how bad this is for them, since there is zero ways to remain in high sec and "adapt", unless adapting means losing 90% of your profits for twice as much work and 10 times the risk. So around month 3, maybe month 4, the unsubbed accounts start lapsing.
The only way it does not show is if the cartels order all their minions to fire up a new account, and keep it going. Given the massive income in null, that should not be too hard. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
479
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 22:00:00 -
[139] - Quote
The more I read about changes to industry as a whole, the more I get the subtle feeling this is CCP Greyscale's apology patch for what he did to null sec space in the Dominion expansion so many years ago... |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 23:32:00 -
[140] - Quote
I've not liked much at all of what I've heard of these changes. It seems to me like you are dumbing down industry and trying to pretend like you are not. The only thing that you are making more involved is the hauling which is a different job all together. BTW I've not heard anyone say that hauling is anything other than the most boring tedious job in game so not sure why you want to make it be used more.
I suspect you are just trying to force players into null. If you want more people into null you have to make null more fun and more friendly to people that are not hyper aggressive PvPers shoot anything that moves and anything that doesn't move shoot until it moves kinda people, because you already have all of them in null. You will not increase null population by making it more fine tuned to the specific group that is already there.
The current null mechanics make it a good place for only one kind of game play and that is large alliance lock everything down and making super unfriendly and then you wonder why no one goes there. These industry changes are intended to benefit large null sov holders and as such will only succeed in making it more unfriendly to smaller start ups. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Look at Provi. Listen to your alliance panel from fanfest. Look at the teams on the list to be in this years Alliance Tournament. Most of them are Provi regulars either blue or red they frequent Provi and many of the panelists from fanfest said provi is where they go for fun.
So instead of making things more friendly to smaller Alliances and making null space have to be used to make isk you have only given the large alliances more of a reason to lock down null and shut out competition. I wonder if you Devs have ever even played this game.
So when null is 95% controled by CFC or people that are NAPed to CFC will you finally understand that you are headed in the wrong direction?
Make moon mining interactive. No more passive income.
Give sov holders more ways to earn isk from neuts and make it so that using your space is more profitable than locking it down.
Make NRDS more profitable than NBSI.
Do these things and you'll see null get used more. Continue down the path that you are headed and you'll only widen the divide between high sec and null. |
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
140
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 01:23:00 -
[141] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Dread Nanana wrote:As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.
If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.
If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.
Cheers...
On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be. If invention times are really going up by a factor of 4X or more I'm not sure how that is not an invention nerf. Getting an very low skill alt to my copies for you is not hard and manufacturing slots are often taken up by other stuff and/or alts used to help. Invention is the high skill point choke point in that chain and if you are nerfing it by four times you are nerfing invention plain and simple. How ever I've not been on SiSi yet so I'm not sure if that is actually the case. |
Ryshca
Viziam Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2014.07.05 14:46:00 -
[142] - Quote
Guttripper wrote:The more I read about changes to industry as a whole, the more I get the subtle feeling this is CCP Greyscale's apology patch for what he did to null sec space in the Dominion expansion so many years ago...
The more i read about changes to industry, the more i get the feeling CCP Greyscale doesn't know what he is doing. Instead of fixing 'broken' industry stuff step by step the industry patch changes a whole lot which isnt broken at all. I can predict already by the way CCP handles patch that all things which gets broken by this patch won't be touched for years again. |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
117
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Posted - 2014.07.05 15:51:00 -
[143] - Quote
Ryshca wrote: Instead of fixing 'broken' industry stuff step by step the industry patch changes a whole lot which isnt broken at all.
Do you want a free Ferrari? I should never have bought the thing, it's not like my Ford KA was broken so why the hell did I change it? Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
May O'Neez
Flying Blacksmiths
40
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Posted - 2014.07.05 17:03:00 -
[144] - Quote
This devblog is a good point because it allows to emphasis what is the vision of CCP regarding its game, and it allows players to make a clearer choice about their interrest or not in the future. Personnaly I'm a bit disappointed that CCPs prefers again to force players into a playstyle rather to give more different opportunities of performing the game.
- regarding Industry being easier to be done: the new UI is good looking but finally the information is lost among the graphics: for example what is the purpose of the colored brackets ? There is also plenty of space lost that could have been used to put aside market windows, information windows, etc. It's like the new inventory UI which forces people multiplying the number of clicks to overcome loss of usability.
- force people to change everytime, break predictability, force people to make copies and / or move precious BPO ... all people may not. Some of their margin will shrink to a point where they won't change decisions but might rather give up, because before the expansion moving stuff and hauling goods was already a pain and now it will become even more. Little corps and individual industrialist will learn the very hard way. On the other side, big corp and alliance won't see a change at all because their size allow to absorb any damage. I can't even figure out if doing cap-sized stuff will still be feasible in average corps because of the reproc nerf replaced by impractical POS-only compression and the VAT on each production step (the worst being jump freighters).
- you were mentionning alliances among industrialists. It may exist in null sec, but I did'nt see that in hisec. Maybe i'm wrong, but what I saw is free for all, industrialists work in an agressive competition context. There is already a lot of challenges due to market analysis and manipulation, supplies variability and conflics on popular products (industry-wise) like the rigs. This was already difficult and interresting, but you think that industry is easy, flat and lame and decided to add a bunch of complexity above, not on the technical but on the human level. The part which was already though to handle depending on the market you work on.
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Cagot
Zendian Solutions
12
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Posted - 2014.07.05 17:44:00 -
[145] - Quote
Thanks for the blog - seeing the big picture helps me understand what challenges I'm going to be facing.
Changing the UI to be more intuitive is certainly a good thing - it's currently pretty opaque to the new manufacturer, especially one who hasn't gone through the manufacturing intro or has forgotten it. Those of us who use it regularly are used to its quirks, but there's no denying that they're quirks.
I'm not sure there's going to be a place for me in the new order, though. I'm more of a "hobbyist" manufacturer and inventor than a Nike or Honda cluster-wide operation. I did Proteus manufacture solo in a wormhole for about three years (thereby winning EVE, of course), but it's not clear that under the new regime I'd be able to do it profitably. If you have to attract some kinds of people to your system (or are they virtual NPC work gangs?) or repel others (he mentioned hiring mercs), and move your operation to a better place regularly, that will cut into the profits.
Given the recent huge size vs armor "balancing" to freighters, shifting my manufacturing base may be challenging. I've recently started an Obelisk manufacturing operation, but if I have to keep moving the expensive BPOs and the piles of minerals around it could mean more moving than building... or do I need to get a Rorq to compress those piles? This seems to favor the blue donut kind of operation, where you have lots of safe travel infrastructure and wide-open spaces under your control, as well as easily-available mineral compression.
I guess it's all about specialization. The age of the generalist may have passed. In fact, it probably passed long ago and I just didn't notice it until now. |
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
1135
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 19:43:00 -
[146] - Quote
Cool blog. Do not run. We are your friends. |
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
445
|
Posted - 2014.07.05 19:52:00 -
[147] - Quote
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:In addition, there are a number of issues which were raised by the devs in the original devblogs, but never followed up on by them - not in later devblogs nor in the forums.
For example, I'd like to hear if CCP Greyscale has made any final decision with regards to reimbursing, or not, ME/PE levels above 10 on BPOs. I've posted the question a few times in different forum threads, during the past couple of months, but I haven't seen an answer from CCP yet. (If CCP Greyscale did post an answer, perhaps I was indeed under the rock at the time - in which case, I apologize.) Those aren't issues the devs raised, those are issues the players are raising. The details of the changes are well covered. Did you see any details about reimbursement for BPOs past 10/10? No. And it's now two weeks until this goes live. So there will be no reimbursement; anyone who thinks this is still an "open issue" is delusional. From CCP Greyscale's devblog, "Researching, the Future":
CCP Greyscale wrote:We're very aware that some of you will feel that you've lost your previous advantages gained by researching blueprints for a really long time, and this is one of the areas we're preparing to focus the most on in terms of receiving feedback and making adjustments or additions to smooth the transition. Everything is on the table in terms of finding a reasonable solution that meets everyone's legitimate concerns, so please approach the feedback in terms of telling us what you'd like to see rather than simply expressing frustration with the changes as described here. We're not done with this yet! |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
205
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Posted - 2014.07.06 20:05:00 -
[148] - Quote
just to say - I did appreciate that blog, a very useful summation, but a release date would have been a useful addition. Xe For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Vin Cornelius
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.07.06 21:43:00 -
[149] - Quote
The devblog is really interesting...hope to find more of this in the future. Channel:-áTORR Public |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
2416
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Posted - 2014.07.07 11:15:00 -
[150] - Quote
Guttripper wrote:The more I read about changes to industry as a whole, the more I get the subtle feeling this is CCP Greyscale's apology patch for what he did to null sec space in the Dominion expansion so many years ago...
The way Dominion turned out is not something I am particularly happy with, no. Insofaras Crius relates to nullsec (which is much less than a lot of people are making out), it's not directly trying to correct issues introduced in Dominion, but rather moving us a step closer to rectifying some long-standing historical issues. It's worth reiterating though that Crius is not targeted at Nullsec and we're not expecting it to be a *significant* boost to Null industry. That will require more targeted intervention, and yes, it will involve a lot of careful balancing between null and empire to ensure we don't break anything.
All that said, if patches-as-apologies is the lens through which you're viewing things, just wait for my "apology" for Rev2 :P |
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