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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Cyaron wars
VMF-214 Blacksheep
76
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 22:58:00 -
[331] - Quote
Manny, very nice article. Glad someone else apart from Marlona pointed out that JBs and JDs are screwing this game by making roaming useless or a blobfest.
Inb4goonwhine about how somebody will screw their ratting with that ihub hack :D |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
602
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 22:59:00 -
[332] - Quote
Lucas Quaan wrote:Querns wrote:Andraea Sarstae wrote:You can achieve much of what you want with some smaller changes:
- Jump drive cool downs on combat capitals
This is not a meaningful restriction, as I can just own multiple hulls and/or pilots (depending on implementation) and use them Pony Express style to achieve the same gameplay as today. These types of restrictions just gate gameplay out for pilots with less money or time (typically, but not always newer players) with no real meaningful restriction for the time or money richer players. So lets cater to the rich and organised who can just burn 30j with interceptors to their 500 BS cache in the warzone instead. This thread has AIDS and most of the suggestions in it are hilariously disconnected from the one thing that matters in terms of having power to project in the first place: warm bodies. If I can simply stockpile ships in strategic locations then you can nerf jumpdrives or logistics or exotic dancers however much you like, the little guy will still get stomped by those with more people. If your end goal is a more diverse null sec, then you need to address reasons to diversify, not arbitrary limitations on distance that only hurt the small and poor anyway.
Cool you burn you're inteceptors over here and project you're power with the stockpile you have. While you are gone I am gonna burn your house to the ground. What are you gonna do burn 250 back? Great your power has been halved in both places. @EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1894
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:01:00 -
[333] - Quote
Tara Read wrote: Ironically the highest posts objecting to Manfreds ideas are members of the CFC. Which really should come at no surprise. TEST may have died but for all their blathering at least they broke away and did things away from the HBC.
I object to Manfreds ideas and I'm in Moa. You'd be hard pressed to find a nominally more anti-CFC entity out there. This isn't a partisan issue. The problem of coalitions and stagnation needs to be dealt with, no one disagrees with that. But nerfing jump ranges across the board won't fix that. You have to tackle the underlying issues (explained very well in this post) which caused the stagnation in the first place. |
ProphetGuru
Evolution Northern Coalition.
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:05:00 -
[334] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: Coalitions will still exist. 2000+ man fleets will still exist.
Until you get rid of some of the reason for coalitions existing (e.g. Massive EHP structure shoots, little effort to actually hold vast tracks of sov in peacetime), the coalitions will continue to do what they have been doing.
This is what I was trying to say earlier. This is the real issue in eve. The rest of it are just symptoms grown out of the blob mentality that has spiraled out of control since 2004.
You need to break the usefulness of the blob. You have to make people WANT to not be in 2000 man fleets. I'm not sure these changes do it. They target and make one aspect difficult for a portion of the player base, but they don't really address the underlying issue. They could be part of the solution, but not the solution.
That is not going to be an easy sell given the power blob wielding entities possess right now.
CCP doesn't exactly have a history of making such fundamental changes. It's taken them 10 years to do an industry revamp for petes sake. They usually go the route of enabling the majority. If it gets too hot they just re-balance battleships again to distract the masses. |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
71
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:05:00 -
[335] - Quote
Manfred Sideous wrote:Lucas Quaan wrote:Querns wrote:Andraea Sarstae wrote:You can achieve much of what you want with some smaller changes:
- Jump drive cool downs on combat capitals
This is not a meaningful restriction, as I can just own multiple hulls and/or pilots (depending on implementation) and use them Pony Express style to achieve the same gameplay as today. These types of restrictions just gate gameplay out for pilots with less money or time (typically, but not always newer players) with no real meaningful restriction for the time or money richer players. So lets cater to the rich and organised who can just burn 30j with interceptors to their 500 BS cache in the warzone instead. This thread has AIDS and most of the suggestions in it are hilariously disconnected from the one thing that matters in terms of having power to project in the first place: warm bodies. If I can simply stockpile ships in strategic locations then you can nerf jumpdrives or logistics or exotic dancers however much you like, the little guy will still get stomped by those with more people. If your end goal is a more diverse null sec, then you need to address reasons to diversify, not arbitrary limitations on distance that only hurt the small and poor anyway. Cool you burn you're inteceptors over here and project you're power with the stockpile you have. While you are gone I am gonna burn your house to the ground. What are you gonna do burn 250 back? Great your power has been halved in both places. I set my timers accordingly.
And pay my sov bills. ;) |
Cyaron wars
VMF-214 Blacksheep
76
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:05:00 -
[336] - Quote
Lucas Quaan wrote:Querns wrote:Andraea Sarstae wrote:You can achieve much of what you want with some smaller changes:
- Jump drive cool downs on combat capitals
This is not a meaningful restriction, as I can just own multiple hulls and/or pilots (depending on implementation) and use them Pony Express style to achieve the same gameplay as today. These types of restrictions just gate gameplay out for pilots with less money or time (typically, but not always newer players) with no real meaningful restriction for the time or money richer players. So lets cater to the rich and organised who can just burn 30j with interceptors to their 500 BS cache in the warzone instead. This thread has AIDS and most of the suggestions in it are hilariously disconnected from the one thing that matters in terms of having power to project in the first place: warm bodies. If I can simply stockpile ships in strategic locations then you can nerf jumpdrives or logistics or exotic dancers however much you like, the little guy will still get stomped by those with more people. If your end goal is a more diverse null sec, then you need to address reasons to diversify, not arbitrary limitations on distance that only hurt the small and poor anyway.
Burning a fleet far away from home make it very vulnerable to ambush, even if it's inty fleet. None of the FCs is protected from retards in fleet and number of retards in fleet grows with geometric proportion compared to size of the fleet. That itself will encourage people to camp the route from point A to point B in order to kill strugglers, slowpokes etc. Also don't forget that in order to stockpile ships somewhere u must deliver them there first, which won't be an easy task as well. |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
72
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:11:00 -
[337] - Quote
Cyaron wars wrote:Lucas Quaan wrote:Querns wrote:Andraea Sarstae wrote:You can achieve much of what you want with some smaller changes:
- Jump drive cool downs on combat capitals
This is not a meaningful restriction, as I can just own multiple hulls and/or pilots (depending on implementation) and use them Pony Express style to achieve the same gameplay as today. These types of restrictions just gate gameplay out for pilots with less money or time (typically, but not always newer players) with no real meaningful restriction for the time or money richer players. So lets cater to the rich and organised who can just burn 30j with interceptors to their 500 BS cache in the warzone instead. This thread has AIDS and most of the suggestions in it are hilariously disconnected from the one thing that matters in terms of having power to project in the first place: warm bodies. If I can simply stockpile ships in strategic locations then you can nerf jumpdrives or logistics or exotic dancers however much you like, the little guy will still get stomped by those with more people. If your end goal is a more diverse null sec, then you need to address reasons to diversify, not arbitrary limitations on distance that only hurt the small and poor anyway. Burning a fleet far away from home make it very vulnerable to ambush, even if it's inty fleet. None of the FCs is protected from retards in fleet and number of retards in fleet grows with geometric proportion compared to size of the fleet. That itself will encourage people to camp the route from point A to point B in order to kill strugglers, slowpokes etc. Also don't forget that in order to stockpile ships somewhere u must deliver them there first, which won't be an easy task as well. It still favours the big player who can just put enough players over at point B to mine and build the crap on site if needed under this new regime.
My point, which is very simple, is that no arbitrary limitation on projection will have any bearing on how much power I have in the first place and the little guy, whom all these grand plans claim to help, will still get stomped by the numbers. |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
603
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:11:00 -
[338] - Quote
Lucas Quaan wrote:Manfred Sideous wrote:Lucas Quaan wrote:Querns wrote:Andraea Sarstae wrote:You can achieve much of what you want with some smaller changes:
- Jump drive cool downs on combat capitals
This is not a meaningful restriction, as I can just own multiple hulls and/or pilots (depending on implementation) and use them Pony Express style to achieve the same gameplay as today. These types of restrictions just gate gameplay out for pilots with less money or time (typically, but not always newer players) with no real meaningful restriction for the time or money richer players. So lets cater to the rich and organised who can just burn 30j with interceptors to their 500 BS cache in the warzone instead. This thread has AIDS and most of the suggestions in it are hilariously disconnected from the one thing that matters in terms of having power to project in the first place: warm bodies. If I can simply stockpile ships in strategic locations then you can nerf jumpdrives or logistics or exotic dancers however much you like, the little guy will still get stomped by those with more people. If your end goal is a more diverse null sec, then you need to address reasons to diversify, not arbitrary limitations on distance that only hurt the small and poor anyway. Cool you burn you're inteceptors over here and project you're power with the stockpile you have. While you are gone I am gonna burn your house to the ground. What are you gonna do burn 250 back? Great your power has been halved in both places. I set my timers accordingly. And pay my sov bills. ;) edit: If you are questioning the ability to have those stockpiles in the first place, let me tell you about this alliance that used to do just that. You might have heard of them.
Accept that when deployed your index's fall and your sov gets more expensive and your sov structures become easier to kill. There again we are talking about the power you can project being tied to the time it takes you to travel. Furthermore how are you going to stockpile those ships? Build them locally? Freighter them in? Both of these take time and take people to do. All of which can be interdicted. Because those 500 BS hulls aren't getting jumped in in Jumpfreighters or in the holds of carriers supercarriers or titans anymore. Unless they are moving by gate. Moving by gate hmmm you are gonna need some protection or that logistic chain is easy pickings.
@EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
Anthar Thebess
570
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:14:00 -
[339] - Quote
Nice, this topic is thriving.
I think the most important thing is to move income outside of the alliance control to something that will bring income to alliance member.
I think it is better when alliance members have bigger income rather when large alliances gain their isk in a passive way.
Boost income of all player activities requiring player actions. Nerf moon mining , shift acquiring those minerals to miners.
If in gallente region of space we have galente moon minerals , then why we cannot find those minerals in ore belts? So when someone is mining belts there is slight chance that on each cycle few units of local minerals will spawn in ore hold.
I agree about ground control, something that this games need, and the wormholes are excellent back door for logistics. Someone will finally install upgrades increasing their numbers.
Capitals , by all means they need changes . Limiting range , increasing fuel consumption for super capitals , why we will not rework how the jump drive works ?
WHY this have to be INSTANT jump? Why capitals cannot "warp" to their destination based on their mas, so low mass shield capitals arrive quicker , instead of traveling 2 minutes per LY crossed they will use 3/4 of this time.
Lets at the same time bind capitals to the systems , while in the interstellar warp (for example) let say 10LY maximum jump range , so something like this should be possible : http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Thanatos,444/B-VIP9:BRT-OP
but what if we add that capitals cannot leave 2 LY from the nearest sun, while keeping this maximum range? We will get something like this : http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Thanatos,444/B-VIP9:WE3-BX:BRT-OP
So your jump path will have to correspond system placements.
Look at this from the other side: 11.653 LY distance, so instead of insta jumping we have capitals that will spend over 22minutes to cross this space.
"But someone will be waiting on the end of the cyno" Yes , unless we add randomness in jump out place , so you can appear anywhere in the system.
"What about jump freighters , they will be scanned down and tackled before they will be able to warp" I don't have bloody idea , but i don't like exceptions. Maybe it is time to guard exit points for a jump freighters?
Still i hope that something good will come out of this. Ground control is something i miss in this game , every one every time can get everywhere.
Think about new type of game play , where one cynojamed system can block in/out capital movements for few constellations ... as this is the only system on the route where capitals will be able to keep 2LY from sun flight path.
Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
603
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:15:00 -
[340] - Quote
Lucas Quaan wrote: It still favours the big player who can just put enough players over at point B to mine and build the crap on site if needed under this new regime.
Ok so you are going to mine and build the crap on site. Cool while you are trying to mine and build I am going to raid your mining party. Now you are going to need to protect it. Or do you think the local inhabitants are going to sit idly by and watch you build up a stockpile cache in which to harm them?
@EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
|
so3ke
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:16:00 -
[341] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote: Until you get rid of some of the reason for coalitions existing (e.g. Massive EHP structure shoots, little effort to actually hold vast tracks of sov in peacetime), the coalitions will continue to do what they have been doing.
Which is why he proposed sov that has to be used to be kept? One of the changes doesn't work without the others .. which is why they were proposed together? And I would like to see more under the name of 'use' than just ratting or mining in a system. Why can't I run a market hub for my two neighbors and get usage points for that?
PotatoOverdose wrote: I object to Manfreds ideas and I'm in Moa. You'd be hard pressed to find a nominally more anti-CFC entity out there. This isn't a partisan issue. The problem of coalitions and stagnation needs to be dealt with, no one disagrees with that. But nerfing jump ranges across the board won't fix that. You have to tackle the underlying issues (explained very well in this post) which caused the stagnation in the first place.
There is a whole number of ways you could nerf moving big fleets round quickly without breaking NPC nullsec pockets. But they would probably also make them more accessible to less skilled players and who wants that? You better start trading ore/ships/modules for ice/pirate faction stuff/moon goo with random Wormhole People cause those supply convoys don't come through anymore.
Lucas Quaan wrote: If your end goal is a more diverse null sec, then you need to address reasons to diversify, not arbitrary limitations on distance that only hurt the small and poor anyway.
Why would they though? What drives 1000 people to jump back and forth 5 times a day to defend something they don't use? That's the question that needs an answer. The only way the blob can end is by making it even more unfun than it is already.
Adding to the hacking thing: I think the hack should go away with the fleet (over time) that does it. Since not every alliance has a round the clock guard online ready to defend every structure. And having to 'unhack' your sov upgrades every day because some Aussie is pissed and wants you to be pissed as well doesn't sound so great. |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
606
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:19:00 -
[342] - Quote
so3ke wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: Until you get rid of some of the reason for coalitions existing (e.g. Massive EHP structure shoots, little effort to actually hold vast tracks of sov in peacetime), the coalitions will continue to do what they have been doing.
Which is why he proposed sov that has to be used to be kept? One of the changes doesn't work without the others .. which is why they were proposed together? And I would like to see more under the name of 'use' than just ratting or mining in a system. Why can't I run a market hub for my two neighbors and get usage points for that? PotatoOverdose wrote: I object to Manfreds ideas and I'm in Moa. You'd be hard pressed to find a nominally more anti-CFC entity out there. This isn't a partisan issue. The problem of coalitions and stagnation needs to be dealt with, no one disagrees with that. But nerfing jump ranges across the board won't fix that. You have to tackle the underlying issues (explained very well in this post) which caused the stagnation in the first place.
There is a whole number of ways you could nerf moving big fleets round quickly without breaking NPC nullsec pockets. But they would probably also make them more accessible to less skilled players and who wants that? You better start trading ore/ships/modules for ice/pirate faction stuff/moon goo with random Wormhole People cause those supply convoys don't come through anymore. Lucas Quaan wrote: If your end goal is a more diverse null sec, then you need to address reasons to diversify, not arbitrary limitations on distance that only hurt the small and poor anyway.
Why would they though? What drives 1000 people to jump back and forth 5 times a day to defend something they don't use? That's the question that needs an answer. The only way the blob can end is by making it even more unfun than it is already. Adding to the hacking thing: I think the hack should go away with the fleet (over time) that does it. Since not every alliance has a round the clock guard online ready to defend every structure. And having to 'unhack' your sov upgrades every day because some Aussie is pissed and wants you to be pissed as well doesn't sound so great.
Perhaps you should get usage off that I mean it is utilization of the system
yeah I clarified later on in the thread that they should expire after a time period. Spitballing i'd say 8 hours. @EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
72
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:20:00 -
[343] - Quote
Manfred Sideous wrote:Accept that when deployed your index's fall and your sov gets more expensive and your sov structures become easier to kill. There again we are talking about the power you can project being tied to the time it takes you to travel. Furthermore how are you going to stockpile those ships? Build them locally? Freighter them in? Both of these take time and take people to do. All of which can be interdicted. Because those 500 BS hulls aren't getting jumped in in Jumpfreighters or in the holds of carriers supercarriers or titans anymore. Unless they are moving by gate. Moving by gate hmmm you are gonna need some protection or that logistic chain is easy pickings.
I have over 9000 nerds at my disposal and can tell 2000 of them to set up shop and stomp on the locals for a week. Have them mine and build on the spot if need be or just roam like locusts, chewing up one upstart alliance and their budding constellation per week.
Seriously, you know this is something we could do with this change and all the mom and pop outfits would have no more control than they used to. They either pay the piper or get kicked back to empire. It might be a different name in the top left corner of your screen, but since space is all about the rent these days the outcome would still be the same. |
jiujitsutou
Outrider's Black. Sails
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:26:00 -
[344] - Quote
I like Manfreds Ideas. However i would like to add the following point : Sov grind really needs to be made easyer (assuming youll have the same ehp strcutures to kill that are in right now ) in order to gain sov in the first place. I see 2 options to get there : 1) (Proposed Retar) reduce the ehp of structures drasticly (even before any usage effects can be applyed or lost) or 2) enable supercarrier production in lowsec (and by that get a giant increase in sc numbers , but independent from the sov holder) |
so3ke
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:28:00 -
[345] - Quote
Lucas Quaan wrote: Seriously, you know this is something we could do with this change and all the mom and pop outfits would have no more control than they used to. They either pay the piper or get kicked back to empire. It might be a different name in the top left corner of your screen, but since space is all about the rent these days the outcome would still be the same.
Well since those smaller entities would have the need and ability to work on their own and defend their space to random neighbors while their big brother is doing the same to their space. They might actually rather defend their own space than help the big brother kick the teeth of someone 500 jumps away they have never met and will never meet again?
Right now most of those strong independent coalition members wouldn't last a day on their own cause they never had to work on their own FCs or figure out how to do industry or logistics. |
Cherry Yeyo
6
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:29:00 -
[346] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Boost income of all player activities requiring player actions. Nerf moon mining , shift acquiring those minerals to miners Thats what I'm saying. Theres not enough value in any given system, constellation or region. Buff all 0.0 pve activities, mining, ratting, PI, plexes and let alliances tax them. Nerf passive income- moons, renters.
The renter thing is a sticky issue but if there was enough value in pve activities in 0.0 alliances could say to their leaders: Yo, dont rent that space out- we want to live there and work that space |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
677
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:49:00 -
[347] - Quote
Lucas Quaan wrote:Querns wrote:Andraea Sarstae wrote:You can achieve much of what you want with some smaller changes:
- Jump drive cool downs on combat capitals
This is not a meaningful restriction, as I can just own multiple hulls and/or pilots (depending on implementation) and use them Pony Express style to achieve the same gameplay as today. These types of restrictions just gate gameplay out for pilots with less money or time (typically, but not always newer players) with no real meaningful restriction for the time or money richer players. So lets cater to the rich and organised who can just burn 30j with interceptors to their 500 BS cache in the warzone instead. This thread has AIDS and most of the suggestions in it are hilariously disconnected from the one thing that matters in terms of having power to project in the first place: warm bodies. If I can simply stockpile ships in strategic locations then you can nerf jumpdrives or logistics or exotic dancers however much you like, the little guy will still get stomped by those with more people. If your end goal is a more diverse null sec, then you need to address reasons to diversify, not arbitrary limitations on distance that only hurt the small and poor anyway. You're completely misunderstanding the point of my post.
The point was to say that adding cooldowns to jump-capable ships actually makes the rich able to outcompete the poor based on the merit of the rich being able to afford the multiple characters / hulls needed to set up the Space Pony Express model I keep alluding to in this thread. Power projection has be tackled with a different method than this. I only keep harping on it because this particular idea is a very convenient one to adopt or derive independently and keeps getting mentioned when it has obvious drawbacks that completely undermine the spirit of the proposal. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Mashka Cybertrona
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:54:00 -
[348] - Quote
or we could have travel time in jumps tied to the same speed as in warps so jumping a carrier to max range would be like 5mins of warp tunnel, drastically slowing down movement of capitals and also delaying their deployment thus giving sub-capitals a window to achieve an objective prior to capital support arriving. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
678
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:57:00 -
[349] - Quote
Mashka Cybertrona wrote:or we could have travel time in jumps tied to the same speed as in warps so jumping a carrier to max range would be like 5mins of warp tunnel, drastically slowing down movement of capitals and also delaying their deployment thus giving sub-capitals a window to achieve an objective prior to capital support arriving. This is a decent idea, but time dilation largely kills it. When time in the Big Fight System is running at 1/10th speed and jump tunnels are operating at normal speed, an extra 20 minutes isn't going to make a significant difference in the outcome of the fight. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Mashka Cybertrona
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2
|
Posted - 2014.07.07 23:59:00 -
[350] - Quote
Querns wrote: This is a decent idea, but time dilation largely kills it. When time in the Big Fight System is running at 1/10th speed and jump tunnels are operating at normal speed, an extra 20 minutes isn't going to make a significant difference in the outcome of the fight.
Except TIDI would kick in during the last jump to the TIDI system and thus increase the amount of travel time by a factor set based on the TIDI in the destination system. |
|
Evelgrivion
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
301
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 00:17:00 -
[351] - Quote
mynnna wrote:There are literally no redeeming qualities to your post whatsoever, everything from "let's remove jump drives but not ACTUALLY remove them" to "let's give people a way to disable hub upgrades for a day at a time within a fifteen minute window, yeah THAT won't get abused in odd timezones at all with no recourse whatsoever" just screams "Let's make the game so awful and unfun that half of nullsec quits."
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. *Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.
I'm going to go a bit off topic here - how many players have already quit because of how awful playing in today's nullsec is for them? The CFC seems positively desperate to hold onto the advantages presently afforded by their girth, and you're constantly shouting down every conceivable inconvenience proposed to the lifestyle lived by the coalitions. You can't have your cake and eat it, too; the way you play the game works to your advantage, but within it is every reason why the null game sucks. |
MagicToes
Dr Pepper Sales Team
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 00:26:00 -
[352] - Quote
Fair play for advocating something which isn't directly in the best interest of your alliance, but about improving the gaming experience for everybody.
I don't have any amazing solutions to this very complex problem but I do think that roaming gangs of all size and types (not just blobs and capitals) should be able to disturb defenders enough that they would want to form a defence fleet. It's pretty crappy that the best defence to a small roaming gang is to sit in station whenever they get within a couple of jumps until the roamer/s get bored. As Manny said there is a lack of content drivers... Although I worry that if production was restricted to require being done locally would that make players even more averse to risking them in fights?
Totally agree that smaller entities should be able to exist in sov space too, there is many many players that would be interested in playing in that region of space if the current mechanics weren't restricting players to such a boring and unrewarding existence. The choice of joining the blob or getting steamrolled isn't attractive to a lot of people. Until we see major changes I think many of the what I consider 'real pvpers' that is people who when they log in look for fights, will stay in lowsec or npc 0.0, or worse yet go inactive because sov 0.0 isn't fun. |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
626
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 00:45:00 -
[353] - Quote
MagicToes wrote:Fair play for advocating something which isn't directly in the best interest of your alliance, but about improving the gaming experience for everybody.
I don't have any amazing solutions to this very complex problem but I do think that roaming gangs of all size and types (not just blobs and capitals) should be able to disturb defenders enough that they would want to form a defence fleet. It's pretty crappy that the best defence to a small roaming gang is to sit in station whenever they get within a couple of jumps until the roamer/s get bored. As Manny said there is a lack of content drivers... Although I worry that if production was restricted to require being done locally would that make players even more averse to risking them in fights?
Totally agree that smaller entities should be able to exist in sov space too, there is many many players that would be interested in playing in that region of space if the current mechanics weren't restricting players to such a boring and unrewarding existence. The choice of joining the blob or getting steamrolled isn't attractive to a lot of people. Until we see major changes I think many of the what I consider 'real pvpers' that is people who when they log in look for fights, will stay in lowsec or npc 0.0, or worse yet go inactive because sov 0.0 isn't fun.
Thanks for the support and I reassert a more inclusive and diverse nullsec is better for everyone most importantly to CCPs profit margin. @EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3838
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 00:46:00 -
[354] - Quote
I don't think the problem is power projection. It is just a scapegoat / catch-phrase for a bigger problem.
Touched upon: * Conflict drivers: need more. R64, CSAA, sec, and sov are not enough. * SOV linked to indexes: use it or lose it.
CCP has it that some space should be more valuable than others to promote conflict, which seems reasonable until the defender becomes un-removable.
But there still needs to be incentive towards movement and conflict. The list of conflict drivers needs to be a LOT longer, and some randomness needs to be thrown into the mix. |
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
72
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 00:49:00 -
[355] - Quote
Querns wrote:Lucas Quaan wrote:Querns wrote:Andraea Sarstae wrote:You can achieve much of what you want with some smaller changes:
- Jump drive cool downs on combat capitals
This is not a meaningful restriction, as I can just own multiple hulls and/or pilots (depending on implementation) and use them Pony Express style to achieve the same gameplay as today. These types of restrictions just gate gameplay out for pilots with less money or time (typically, but not always newer players) with no real meaningful restriction for the time or money richer players. So lets cater to the rich and organised who can just burn 30j with interceptors to their 500 BS cache in the warzone instead. This thread has AIDS and most of the suggestions in it are hilariously disconnected from the one thing that matters in terms of having power to project in the first place: warm bodies. If I can simply stockpile ships in strategic locations then you can nerf jumpdrives or logistics or exotic dancers however much you like, the little guy will still get stomped by those with more people. If your end goal is a more diverse null sec, then you need to address reasons to diversify, not arbitrary limitations on distance that only hurt the small and poor anyway. You're completely misunderstanding the point of my post. The point was to say that adding cooldowns to jump-capable ships actually makes the rich able to outcompete the poor based on the merit of the rich being able to afford the multiple characters / hulls needed to set up the Space Pony Express model I keep alluding to in this thread. Power projection has be tackled with a different method than this. I only keep harping on it because this particular idea is a very convenient one to adopt or derive independently and keeps getting mentioned when it has obvious drawbacks that completely undermine the spirit of the proposal. I was mostly agreeing with you that projection is largely based around having isk and manpower, thus power, in the first place. No amount of cooldown or range nerf is going to change that, although I support the idea of cooldown since it would help limit the speed of projection, if not projection itself.
For what it's worth, I could see decent balance towards that end would be to slow down capital movement to around the same timescale as it would take to project a fleet of subcaps an equivalent distance, albeit with the ability to take "shortcuts". |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
626
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Posted - 2014.07.08 00:49:00 -
[356] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:I don't think the problem is power projection. It is just a scapegoat / catch-phrase for a bigger problem.
Touched upon: * Conflict drivers: need more. R64, CSAA, sec, and sov are not enough. * SOV linked to indexes: use it or lose it.
CCP has it that some space should be more valuable than others to promote conflict, which seems reasonable until the defender becomes un-removable.
But there still needs to be incentive towards movement and conflict. The list of conflict drivers needs to be a LOT longer, and some randomness needs to be thrown into the mix.
Power projection starves out new groups from entering nullsec. I mean if we only change sov to indexes ( use it or lose it) you will see groups like PL/N3/CFC continuing business as usual. There sov footprint might be smaller but they will just rent more space.
@EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
503
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 00:55:00 -
[357] - Quote
All of what is said in the OP is completely correct, and I think the changes are fantastic.
The fact is that what everybody is saying in this thread as counterpoints are wrong. What I've seen a lot of are things like:
"This isn't tackling the underlying issues for why the coalitions exist." "This will make 0.0 logistics impossible." "2000 man blobs will still exist."
First of all, the underlying issue for why coalitions exist is that you all are bloody cowards. There is no tackling that issue, ever. The only way to get around it is to make it hilariously boring for you to be a coward. His changes do this, so as far as I'm concerned that's as close to tackling the issue are you're going to get.
Secondly, anybody complaining about how 0.0 logistics will be hard now doesn't get the point. Fact is that all logistics are way too easy now. People look at this change and think, "How will i bring in hundreds of CTA ships for my alliance now?", when they don't realize that they won't have to bring in hundreds of CTA ships because their alliance won't be that big. The whole point of these changes is to spread out the playerbase, so logistics becomes a local issue rather than a global "just JF it from jita" issue.
Finally, yes, 2000 man blobs will STILL exist, and that's perfectly fine. They're fantastic for marketing, and are reasonably fun once in a while. These changes don't remove all the supers we have in the game, so there is still room for huge planned fights. But the changes also make it so that these huge 10% tidi fights are not the only fights that can happen. The changes proposed here make it such that coalitions cannot drum up 1000 man fleets willy nilly and move them anywhere in eve on short notice. If the coalitions want to exist, that's fine, but they'll end up finding that they won't be able to respond to threats with a 1000 man fleet or a huge supercap force anytime they want. Instead they'll either have to split up those fleets and defend multiple objectives, or just abandon one altogether.
These are fantastic changes and I hope that CCP rolls them out. Force projection needs to be changed, and these changes are the best way of doing that I've seen so far. You can't just make things harder (i.e. increasing fuel costs etc...), you have to make the IMPOSSIBLE, otherwise big entities are the favored result as they will be the only ones who can deal with the harder mechanics (procuring huge amounts of fuel etc...). |
Ivory Kantenu
Sons of The Forge SpaceMonkey's Alliance
68
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 00:57:00 -
[358] - Quote
As a potential future Titan Pilot, as well as being a part of the null bloc game for quite awhile, I can honestly say that even though these changes look decent on paper, I can see a long term burnout for most of them. Looking at the 'engaging border disputes' comment a few pages back from you, Manfred, I can see the exact thing that is happening with BOTLORD now repeating in terms of logistical movements. We don't touch yours, you don't touch ours, all is ok in the neighborhood. What could potentially be fun for a few months will eventually be paved over by Politics, and null will go back to it's current state of 'Not doing much'.
I can't pretend to have been playing for as long as the lot of you posting in this thread, but I'd like to think I have enough of my whits about me to see a rather large bandaid that you are potentially giving CCP here. Light changes could be made to make things more interesting, but the primary problem, as most people see, which is Industry and logistics in Null, will be hurt more by this than helped. All you are doing is slowing things down a little, and inconveniencing people a little. Most of these changes will light the forums on fire for months on end, until CCP reverts / loosens things a little to keep people happy. While I am thrilled to see some really potentially good changes coming from this thread otherwise, your initial 'Radical' ones are really painful. No one will be happy to see most of these go through, especially those dealing with Alliance Starbase and Logistics causes on the day to day.
That being said, at least this thread so far has been relatively civil. Some of the ideas like Mass on Cynos is really interesting, and maybe bringing in the potential of Tech II Cynos with more mass stability and less cycle time would be something in the future, but that's not really something to be brought up in this thread in the 'going out on a limb' clause. Learn the basics of Wormhole Selling: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101693&find=unread
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Angsty Teenager
Broski North
503
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 01:13:00 -
[359] - Quote
Ivory Kantenu wrote:As a potential future Titan Pilot, as well as being a part of the null bloc game for quite awhile, I can honestly say that even though these changes look decent on paper, I can see a long term burnout for most of them. Looking at the 'engaging border disputes' comment a few pages back from you, Manfred, I can see the exact thing that is happening with BOTLORD now repeating in terms of logistical movements. We don't touch yours, you don't touch ours, all is ok in the neighborhood. What could potentially be fun for a few months will eventually be paved over by Politics, and null will go back to it's current state of 'Not doing much'.
Ah! But friend, wait! Here is where the beauty of his changes is evident.
Even if botlord esque argreements happen between two parties over logistical routes, the difference is that with these changes, it makes is very possible for a 3rd party to come in and mess with these logistical routes, as only the people in the region where this logistical movements are happening (i.e. some 0.0 chokepoint, like doril), will be able to respond and deal with the threat. People living regions away, even if they are in an agreement to be try to defend this system, simply will not be able to without committing fleets to sit in that system 24/7--at which point their OWN home systems are now undefended and ripe for the picking.
Currently, there are no 3rd parties that can do anything, because there are no groups large enough to fight goons or n3pl. The point of these changes is to make it so that EVEN IF large coalitions still exist (and they won't since they'll face too much logistical strain to exist), they will not be able to respond with a large enough force to threats from 3rd parties on a local scale. |
Manfred Sideous
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
629
|
Posted - 2014.07.08 01:16:00 -
[360] - Quote
Ivory Kantenu wrote:As a potential future Titan Pilot, as well as being a part of the null bloc game for quite awhile, I can honestly say that even though these changes look decent on paper, I can see a long term burnout for most of them. Looking at the 'engaging border disputes' comment a few pages back from you, Manfred, I can see the exact thing that is happening with BOTLORD now repeating in terms of logistical movements. We don't touch yours, you don't touch ours, all is ok in the neighborhood. What could potentially be fun for a few months will eventually be paved over by Politics, and null will go back to it's current state of 'Not doing much'.
I can't pretend to have been playing for as long as the lot of you posting in this thread, but I'd like to think I have enough of my whits about me to see a rather large bandaid that you are potentially giving CCP here. Light changes could be made to make things more interesting, but the primary problem, as most people see, which is Industry and logistics in Null, will be hurt more by this than helped. All you are doing is slowing things down a little, and inconveniencing people a little. Most of these changes will light the forums on fire for months on end, until CCP reverts / loosens things a little to keep people happy. While I am thrilled to see some really potentially good changes coming from this thread otherwise, your initial 'Radical' ones are really painful. No one will be happy to see most of these go through, especially those dealing with Alliance Starbase and Logistics causes on the day to day.
That being said, at least this thread so far has been relatively civil. Some of the ideas like Mass on Cynos is really interesting, and maybe bringing in the potential of Tech II Cynos with more mass stability and less cycle time would be something in the future, but that's not really something to be brought up in this thread in the 'going out on a limb' clause.
You and a few neighbors might make agreements. Your pvp'rs will suffer for it when they are forced to go extra jumps to find pvp content. Furthermore you arent going to go take more sov than what you can handle or use because you won't be able to hold it or afford it. As far as day to day logistics you will need to have more miners and builders in your space. Alot of the goods you need will be able to be used or produced locally. Sure you will still export some but it will be nowhere what it is now. Meaning the pos fuel will come locally and the goo will be used locally. Any extra can then be moved off to empire markets or used to augment stockpile/warchest.
@EveManny
https://twitter.com/EveManny |
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