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Tal'Rashas Urteil
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2014.07.03 01:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was playing around with the refineries in the stations and noticed a 50% base yield and 30% base yield, what does that mean and whats the difference?
Ive looked on evewiki but dont explain it |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2090
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 09:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well, I would guess it's more or less "efficiency" of station refinery equipment that if one of factors influencing refining outcome according to equations on this page. And it will all change when Crius gets released at 22nd of July. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Tal'Rashas Urteil
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2014.07.03 11:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Please help me out here, I have all refinery skills to lvl 5 and ore skills to lvl 4 corp standing to 5 and refinery implant lvl 4, will the new changes affect me by a lot? |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2090
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 11:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
As far as I can understand this dev blog incoming changes Crius will affect refining quite a lot because you won't be able to get 100% refine at NPC stations. But read it and read corresponding comment thread and check out Test Server forum for input from more experienced people. I just use refining as loot clean up service :) I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
450
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 12:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
TL;DR Refining \ Reprocessing will become a full fledged profession with many skills and more skills and equipment (outposts \ PoS) you invest the more you'll get. "What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |
Tal'Rashas Urteil
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2014.07.03 14:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:As far as I can understand this dev blog incoming changes Crius will affect refining quite a lot because you won't be able to get 100% refine at NPC stations. But read it and read corresponding comment thread and check out Test Server forum for input from more experienced people. I just use refining as loot clean up service :) But we work for it and lottery invest time on getting perfect refine, why are they doing this? |
Tal'Rashas Urteil
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 14:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:TL;DR Refining \ Reprocessing will become a full fledged profession with many skills and more skills and equipment (outposts \ PoS) you invest the more you'll get. I have all ore skills at 4 and refinery to 5, right now I am working in my standings for perfect refine when Ciris comes out
Also since I have all ore skills to 4 and refinery to 5 and refine implant plus corp standing, will I be affected by a lot? |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
1035
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 15:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
The new max refine will be about 76%, no matter what skills and implants. Ore compositions are being adjusted so this will give you slightly more minerals than you currently get from a 100% refine.
Basically with the current system it did not take much, aside from standings, to reach a perfect 100% refine in a 50% station. With maxed skills you get get near perfect refine in a 35% station.
Under the new system even with max skills, and max implants, in the highest yield station, (which will be mimatar outpost in sov null) you will get 76-78% refine.
However If you have refining 5, refining efficiency 5, and ore skills to 4, you will get the same amount of minerals you currently do. but training those remaining skills up to 5 will give you a slight advantage and slightly more minerals.
The idea was this leaves room for refining to grow, and there should never be a 100% return. anyone putting the effort into that little bit extra, all 5 skills, that 5% implant, will get more than someone who does not. |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
118
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 16:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Base refine is where the station starts before taking your skills into account. The bottom line is that you always want to use 50% stations. Stations with 30% base refine might as well not have the ability at all.
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:(Link to Refining Changes Dev Blog) But we work for it and lottery invest time on getting perfect refine, why are they doing this?
It boils down to two basic reasons. 1) There is currently no point in training ore refining skills to 5. One can get perfect refining for everything by training Refining 5, Refining Efficiency 5 and each ore skill to 1. Or you can get there by training Refining 5, Refining Efficiency 5 and an implant. Or you can get there for all but a few ores by training Refining 5, Refining Efficiency 4 and each ore skill to 2. (Arkanor, Bistot, a couple others have Refining Efficiency 5 as a pre-requisite.) Also, T2 mining crystals only required level 4 of the ore refining skill to use.
Having skills in the game that nobody ever trains is generally a bad thing. The devs are all about "interesting decisions" so they wanted to give people a reason to consider training these skills. However, training them all from 4 to 5 will take about 6 months.
2) It gives them flexibility to add more different facilities to the game for risk/reward purposes. Most NPC stations have 50% and are available to anyone. If you accept the risk of hanging a POS in high sec, and the expense of fueling it, you can have 52%. If you accept the even greater risk of a low sec POS, you can have 54%. If you go through the expense of dropping a null-sec Minmatar outpost and upgrading it to maximum refining, and the risk that your enemies won't take it from you, you can have 60%.
To be good at industry in this game, you need to get slight advantages over all the other people and then stack those advantages together.
If you have all the skills to 4, you will be average. If you have all the skills to 4 and put in an implant, you will be 4% better than average. If you have that plus put a refinery on your high-sec POS, you will be 6% better than average. If you do that, plus spend the time training the skills to 5, you will probably be able to make a business out of buying other people's ore, refining it, and selling the minerals. Other people will not want to train those skills, use a POS, or use a hardwiring slot for a refining implant.
Or maybe you are in the category of people who do not want to do those things? Buy your minerals from someone who does, and spend your time doing things that are more interesting to you. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3806
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 17:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
After Crius:
Reprocessing Yield = Reprocessing Facilities * (1 + Refining Skill * 3%) * (1 + Refining Efficiency Skill * 2%) * (1 + Ore or Ice Processing Skill * 2%)
Level 4 Material Skill At 50% Facilities = 68.31% [or -4.048%] Level 4 Material Skill At 50% Facilities and 4% Refining Implant = 68.31% * (1 + 4%) = 71.0424% [-1.3156%]
Level 4 Material Skill 52% Reprocessing Array = 71.0424% [-1.3156%] Level 4 Material Skill At 52% Reprocessing Array and 4% Refining Implant = 71.0424% * (1 + 4%) = 73.884096% [+1.526096%]
Max Skill At 50% Facilities = 69.575% [or -2.783%] Max Skill At 50% Facilities and 4% Refining Implant = 69.575% * (1 + 4%) = 72.358% [this is the old "perfect refine"]
Max Skill At 52% Reprocessing Array = 72.358% [this is the old "perfect refine"] Max Skill At 52% Reprocessing Array and 4% Refining Implant = 72.358% * (1 + 4%) = 75.25232% [+1.67232%] |
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Tal'Rashas Urteil
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 18:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:After Crius:
Reprocessing Yield = Reprocessing Facilities * (1 + Refining Skill * 3%) * (1 + Refining Efficiency Skill * 2%) * (1 + Ore or Ice Processing Skill * 2%)
Level 4 Material Skill At 50% Facilities = 68.31% [or -4.048%] Level 4 Material Skill At 50% Facilities and 4% Refining Implant = 68.31% * (1 + 4%) = 71.0424% [-1.3156%]
Level 4 Material Skill 52% Reprocessing Array = 71.0424% [-1.3156%] Level 4 Material Skill At 52% Reprocessing Array and 4% Refining Implant = 71.0424% * (1 + 4%) = 73.884096% [+1.526096%]
Max Skill At 50% Facilities = 69.575% [or -2.783%] Max Skill At 50% Facilities and 4% Refining Implant = 69.575% * (1 + 4%) = 72.358% [this is the old "perfect refine"]
Max Skill At 52% Reprocessing Array = 72.358% [this is the old "perfect refine"] Max Skill At 52% Reprocessing Array and 4% Refining Implant = 72.358% * (1 + 4%) = 75.25232% [+1.67232%] Please explain what you mean by material skill and max skill |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
118
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 18:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:Please explain what you mean by material skill and max skill
Where Tau has "Level 4 Material Skill" you can replace it with "Veldspar Processing level 4" or "Scordite Processing level 4" etc.
Where Tau has "Max Skill" you can replace it with "Veldspar Processing level 5" or "Scordite Processing level 5" etc.
So you can find where you are on the chart based on your skill level for that specific ore, whether you plan to refine at a NPC Station or a POS, and whether you have an implant or not.
Remember that after Crius hits it is not going to matter what the old "perfect refine" was. Everyone's ore is the same.
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Tal'Rashas Urteil
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2014.07.03 21:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
So training for the ore skills is worthless? |
Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
452
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 22:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:So training for the ore skills is worthless?
quite the opposite.
right now if you wish to get best possible amount of minerals out of your ores and you refine yourself you will need refining + refining eff 5 + ORE SPECIFIC refining skill 5 + 4% refining implant and then the better the place you refine it the more minerals you get.
iirc minmattar outpost max upgraded will have best base yield before skills.
on high sec best will be 52% via pos (or 50% station if u don't have pos) and on lowsec it will be 54% on pos iirc and minmattar outpost should have 60% + . something like total of extra 14% in minmattar outpost over highsec station iirc.
so bottom line is if u wish to refine yourself unless you max those skills and get that 4% implant (100mil) you will get less then now.
"What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |
Josclyn Verreuil
Justified Chaos
5
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 23:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Has it been officially clarified whether or not POS arrays are meant to take skills into account post-crius or not? |
Tal'Rashas Urteil
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 23:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:So training for the ore skills is worthless? quite the opposite. right now if you wish to get best possible amount of minerals out of your ores and you refine yourself you will need refining + refining eff 5 + ORE SPECIFIC refining skill 5 + 4% refining implant and then the better the place you refine it the more minerals you get. iirc minmattar outpost max upgraded will have best base yield before skills. on high sec best will be 52% via pos (or 50% station if u don't have pos) and on lowsec it will be 54% on pos iirc and minmattar outpost should have 60% + . something like total of extra 14% in minmattar outpost over highsec station iirc. so bottom line is if u wish to refine yourself unless you max those skills and get that 4% implant (100mil) you will get less then now. so i should work for ore processing skills to lvl 5 right? thats all i am missing and the corp standings |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3810
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 02:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:so i should work for ore processing skills to lvl 5 right? thats all i am missing and the corp standings If you only refine hisec ores, you don't have to train all the materials to 5.
Training all the material skills to 5 takes roughly 200 days. If you decide to go that route, you might want to do an attribute remap to memory > intelligence, and pad-out the year with drone and other industry skills. [My alt did, and is currently training an INT>MEM skill at an acceptable rate.]
Of course, you could get others to refine for you. Also note that ore prices are very likely to soar, as the demand for compressed ore grows (especially for use by capital builders). |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
1383
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 06:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Josclyn Verreuil wrote:Has it been officially clarified whether or not POS arrays are meant to take skills into account post-crius or not?
It has. They do. (can't recall which dev blog that's from, probably the starbase changes one) |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
165
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 08:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:So training for the ore skills is worthless?
Training the relevant ore processing skills before Crius was not worthless and was a necessity to level four to enable use of T2 mining crystals. So anyone who says those skills were surplus to requirements, whether they be a CCP Dev or a capsuleer, is plainly talking out of their ****. Unless the player is only refining and not mining in which case the ore processing skills could have been left to one side.
After Crius whether you are mining or mining & refining you will want to have level five in any ore processing skills for the ores you deal with. For high sec it will be from Veld all the way up to Jas, Hem, & Hed. For others it will be those plus any of the remainder you wish to work with. |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
165
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 08:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Josclyn Verreuil wrote:Has it been officially clarified whether or not POS arrays are meant to take skills into account post-crius or not?
Yes use of POS arrays & outposts will definitely need max skills plus implant to get max yield. It may be that those skills will not be needed at release date if CCP haven't got around to implementing it. But the skill requirement will eventually be implemented otherwise it would be another loophole. |
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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
165
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 08:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:so i should work for ore processing skills to lvl 5 right? thats all i am missing and the corp standings If you only refine hisec ores, you don't have to train all the materials to 5. Training all the material skills to 5 takes roughly 200 days. If you decide to go that route, you might want to do an attribute remap to memory > intelligence, and pad-out the year with drone and other industry skills. [ My alt did, and is currently training an INT>MEM skill at an acceptable rate.] Of course, you could get others to refine for you. Also note that ore prices are very likely to soar, as the demand for compressed ore grows (especially for use by capital builders).
Ore prices have already risen quite a bit. For example Dense Veldspar has risen by over two ISK per unit in a short space of time. I will be surprised though if the equivalent prices of minerals are overtaken by the price of raw ore. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
657
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 09:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Prices are rising at the moment because people aren't refining their ore. They're not doing that obviously because they think they'll get more post patch. Once the patch hits, there will probably be a rush to sell and minerals will tank, so you won't be any better off if you make isk selling minerals. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
139
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 14:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
Training all the High Sec Ore Reprocessing Skills to V only takes about a month. Due to a majority of the Zydrine and Nocxium in the game being shipped from 0.0 to High Sec to sell, and due to the best refining rate being in 0.0 if you are mining it in 0.0 you will refine it there and ship the minerals to high sec. If you are a builder then I would not worry about training any reprocessing other than Omber, Plagioclase, Pyroxeres, Scordite and Veldspar to V. Jaspet is by far one of the worst minerals to m3 rations in the game, and the low sec ores are almost as bad. Even for titans, the amount of Zydrine, Nocxium and Megacyte used, combined, fits inside a JF with some room to spare. |
Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
454
|
Posted - 2014.07.04 17:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
For mining there is big big issue to consider. refining into minerals was so far a pretty sure way to get better isk for your ores BUT mostly it's due to transport.... refining shrinks the size of your goods by substantial amount.
Training for all possible high sec ores + possible ore anomaly ores in high sec was needed for T2 crystals. it will not take long to get it to V.
the only thing to consider is... Pos or not to Pos.
with pos u get compression array and better refining facility. But in order to justify holding a pos need to calculate how much ores you are going to refine over station refine and how much profit left after expanses to justify holding pos in first place. "What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |
Tal'Rashas Urteil
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2014.07.04 18:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
alright thanks guys |
Camel1001
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.07.22 21:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Am I right that scrap refining is totally worthless now? (Comparing with the situation before) |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3936
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 21:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Camel1001 wrote:Am I right that scrap refining is totally worthless now? (Comparing with the situation before) Depends on what you classify as worthless.
Scrap is capped at 50%, or 55% with Scrapmetal Processing 5 trained. |
Dylan Tompkins
Iron Corsairs
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.24 23:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Personally I think these changes were horrible. . I was a miner/refiner but this completely crippled my operation. I've only been in the game about 6 months and just in the last few weeks finally got all my mining/refining skills up to where I was making good ISK. I went from near perfect refining (98%) to 65%. Even with the boost to ore yield I still get significantly less minerals than before the update. Everyone keeps saying this is going to send ore prices soaring but so far the bottom has fell out of ore prices so it's not even worth taking the time to make 10-20 trips to Jita hauling ore to sell. Basically I'm completely screwed now. It's a real shame CCP had to screw this up so badly. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3981
|
Posted - 2014.07.25 04:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dylan Tompkins wrote:Personally I think these changes were horrible. . I was a miner/refiner but this completely crippled my operation. I've only been in the game about 6 months and just in the last few weeks finally got all my mining/refining skills up to where I was making good ISK. I went from near perfect refining (98%) to 65%. Even with the boost to ore yield I still get significantly less minerals than before the update. Everyone keeps saying this is going to send ore prices soaring but so far the bottom has fell out of ore prices so it's not even worth taking the time to make 10-20 trips to Jita hauling ore to sell. Basically I'm completely screwed now. It's a real shame CCP had to screw this up so badly. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it. The patch was two days ago. Most people won't even login until the weekend.
I personally am still trying to figure out the new UIs and such.
Be patient. Give it time.
Don't Panic! |
Steijn
Quay Industries
565
|
Posted - 2014.07.25 11:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
Dylan Tompkins wrote:Personally I think these changes were horrible. . I was a miner/refiner but this completely crippled my operation. I've only been in the game about 6 months and just in the last few weeks finally got all my mining/refining skills up to where I was making good ISK. I went from near perfect refining (98%) to 65%. Even with the boost to ore yield I still get significantly less minerals than before the update. Everyone keeps saying this is going to send ore prices soaring but so far the bottom has fell out of ore prices so it's not even worth taking the time to make 10-20 trips to Jita hauling ore to sell. Basically I'm completely screwed now. It's a real shame CCP had to screw this up so badly. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.
you are only screwed until you skill up a bit more and get a reprocessing implant in, or you could stick your own POS up and compress the ore as that should start picking up soon. |
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