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Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
31
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Posted - 2014.07.05 04:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
I really don't understand why everybody is wracking their brains trying to figure out a balanced way to nerf force projection. I personally think it needs to be buffed. We all know there are a lot of annoying things about Eve. For me, the prospect of the 30-system trek is one of those things that are annoying about Eve. Well, Eve is a place where the bigger richer alliances and coalitions have ways around this annoyance with Titan bridging, cyno beacons, etc. Most of the complaints seem to center around the state of things that bigger and richer null sec alliances can pretty much get wherever they want, and the littler guys can't do that, and this allows the bigger guys to hold vast amounts of territory without actually living in it. The response has been a bunch of cries to nerf force projection. However, Eve is a game where people are supposed to fight, and the result of these nerfs will either make it so the people who can get together to fight won't be able to do so, or they will end up keeping things just as they are but make the game more inconvenient and annoying.
In a game where moving around the map is a fairly annoying and inconvenient part of the game, I think the answer is to make it easier for a larger number of groups to move around, rather than preventing the few groups that can move around from doing it.
Now some of the nerfs to force projection do make sense in terms of general concept and balance. I personally like the idea of making BLOPS battleships and Titans go through their bridges with the fleets that they are bridging. Titans and BLOPS BS I think were intended to be lords of their respective types of battles, and one facet of this lordship is their ability to bring the troops with them. However, in 99% of cloak fleets the BLOPS BS is pretty much just a ferry, and 99% of Titans never leave the POS. I think forcing an alliance to pay 70 billion for a ship simply for the ability to get subcap fleets to fights is one of the things that has people miffed. Especially since most alliances don't have the ability to keep such ships safe, and this forces people to buy or spend years training nameless alts to be the pilots of the most glorious ships in the game. Better to leave Titans to the guys who are going to be fighting in the next BR. There's gotta be a better way to bridge. Preferably a way that smaller and SOV-less alliances can make use of. Want to prevent the big alliances from holding a bunch of SOV they never even visit? Give the little guys a way to hit them in the back door.
I propose a couple of things to make force projection easier and more widespread. First, I think Clone Vat Bays should be reworked so that a clone can be stored in it, not just created, and that carriers and super carriers should be allowed to fit them. Basically, you'd fly up to a carrier as if it were a Rorq or a Titan and click store clone, and a window would pop up giving you the option of creating a new clone or jumping to one of your other clones. You could select one of your other clones, jump to it, and the clone you jump from would be stored in the Clone Vat Bay of the carrier. This would make the ship maintenance bays of carriers actually useful in combat, rather than just being useful for moving ships to deployment areas. Naturally this kind of force projection would be far inferior to the briding of today, but it would offer another option to smaller groups to do more.
Also, I think there should be another ship introduced to the game, a fleet fueler, perhaps designed like a 'little' capital ship like an Orca. It would have the ability to use gates and cynos like a JF. The ship itself would have a gargantuan fuel bay. A tiny fleet hangar, probably no ship maintenance bay. Minimal offense. Good tank though. However, it can bridge sub caps. Make it cost 2-3 billion. Perhaps make it the only type of bridger that doesn't have to go through the bridge that it creates.
ideas like these that make force projection easier, not harder, are what is needed to create balance between the huge alliances and the smaller ones. They would also enable more fights and make the nasty business of getting around the eve map |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5382
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Posted - 2014.07.05 05:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote: In a game where moving around the map is a fairly annoying and inconvenient part of the game...
This is an MMO.
EVERYTHING IS ANNOYING AND INCONVENIENT!!!
'nuff said.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
641
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Posted - 2014.07.05 05:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
The slippery slope started with WTZ.
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Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1934
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Posted - 2014.07.05 05:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote: Want to prevent the big alliances from holding a bunch of SOV they never even visit? Give the little guys a way to hit them in the back door.
Haven't thought about this very long have you? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
32
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Posted - 2014.07.05 05:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
OK, so no comments about my general point of more force projection being better than less. And no comments about my specific examples of the fuel truck/bridger ship or using carriers to deploy fleets in space. Just a couple of inane joke posts and one post zeroing in on an offhand comment I made about smaller alliances using projection to damage the larger ones.
Yay Eve players! I love you! You're the reason why I play solo! |
WarFireV
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
362
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Posted - 2014.07.05 06:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Power projection is just the buzz word of the day. |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1415
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Posted - 2014.07.05 06:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:OK, so no comments about my general point of more force projection being better than less. And no comments about my specific examples of the fuel truck/bridger ship or using carriers to deploy fleets in space. Just a couple of inane joke posts and one post zeroing in on an offhand comment I made about smaller alliances using projection to damage the larger ones.
Yay Eve players! I love you! You're the reason why I play solo! Because buffing force projection only HELPS the big guys. It does nothing for the little guys since the big guys can now STILL move their much superior force faster, just now its WAY faster. the little guy who has less access to those advanced transportation options are now INCREDIBLY ******. |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
32
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Posted - 2014.07.05 06:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:OK, so no comments about my general point of more force projection being better than less. And no comments about my specific examples of the fuel truck/bridger ship or using carriers to deploy fleets in space. Just a couple of inane joke posts and one post zeroing in on an offhand comment I made about smaller alliances using projection to damage the larger ones.
Yay Eve players! I love you! You're the reason why I play solo! Because buffing force projection only HELPS the big guys. It does nothing for the little guys since the big guys can now STILL move their much superior force faster, just now its WAY faster. the little guy who has less access to those advanced transportation options are now INCREDIBLY ******.
I don't see how adding a 2 billion ISK ship that does the same thing as a 70 billion ISK ship means that the little guy "has less access to those advanced transportation options." Also, the 2 billion ISK ship doesn't let the big guy do things WAY faster. It just lets both the big guy and the little guy do exactly the same thing for cheap that currently only the big guy can do for expensive.
I also don't see how giving carriers an option that would create a less efficient version of current force projection would wreck anything. Allowing a fleet of 5 carriers filled with 15 jump clones and 15 battleships to jump in, eject clones, and board battleships and then fight is really an inefficient way to project force that would only be usable in certain niche situations. However, it gives non-Titan owners and non-cyno beacon owners some options. Might give rise to certain doctrines for certain fleet types usable in certain situations. However, these situations would be available to big power blocs as well as smaller groups. It would also make carriers just cooler in general and more flexible overall.
So as far as I can see it, the two ideas don't give the big guys any more capability than they already have (although cheaper and without forcing the Titan flagships to babysit POSes) and they do give smaller alliances more capability than they have. So nothing about "WAY faster."
But hey, thanks for making an attempt to respond to the general idea of the post and not just make a joke or nitpick at a detail. |
Magnus Cortex
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
195
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Posted - 2014.07.05 06:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:Want to prevent the big alliances from holding a bunch of SOV they never even visit? Give the little guys a way to hit them in the back door
Hit my back door bby
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Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
32
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Posted - 2014.07.05 06:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Magnus Cortex wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:Want to prevent the big alliances from holding a bunch of SOV they never even visit? Give the little guys a way to hit them in the back door Hit my back door bby
Jeez, man, everybody loves that sentence!
It was an anecdote, man, intended to convey the sense that more people with more force projection would lead to more fights. I wasn't trying to elucidate a new era of warfare complete with battle plans.
How about a comment about whether you'd prefer giving the little guys the same kind of force projection that you have or whether you'd prefer having your force projection tools nerfed? How about a comment about whether the two ideas for increasing force projection I mentioned would be a worthwhile effort for CCPs devs or not? |
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Magnus Cortex
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
195
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Posted - 2014.07.05 07:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Personally I think more ships should have jump drives but not capital class vessels. Theres something inherently wrong with the equation when ships with millions of EHP that can RR each other with no stacking penalties can cross the universe in minutes.
Small gangs should do that but not the capital blob |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3650
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Posted - 2014.07.05 08:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote: EDIT: I did not consider that you are a goon. So you don't want your force projection tools nerfed. And you don't want the little guy to have the same force projection as you. You want to have options that nobody else has so you can continue to lead the Goon life.
Goons have thrived throughout all the changes to the game since 2006, nerf power projection or add more of it, ascribe whatever motivations you think exist, whatever, we'll continue to do just fine. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2487
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Posted - 2014.07.05 10:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
thers a way more interesting idea knocking bout in f&i, coincidentally its the exact opposite of this one.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=356024&find=unread "Confirming EVE is hot, batshit crazy, and puts out." -Omar Alharazaad "CAKE CANNOT HOLD UP TO BEING A CHARACTER DAMNIT." --áUnsuccessful At Everything |
Dhaq
Anonymous Posters
9
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Posted - 2014.07.05 14:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Traveling and logistics can be a pain in the ass, yes. But it should be. There should be decisions about the the risk and time involved in moving things across the universe. Allowing players to instantly jump to where they want to go and bypass all of the content in-between is a terrible idea. It is bad enough as it is, but allowing even more ships to do it is a completely terrible idea.
Players scream for an easier way to travel and in most games the devs actually listen to them. You know, fast travel. Get to anywhere you want to go instantly. Have you ever paid attention to what happens to the population in these games over time as easier ways of traveling are added? Take a look at World of Warcraft. Is that want you want?
Risk/Reward is always a mantra people chant around here. Where is the risk in being able to continuously move around the entire universe virtually in an instant? This ability kills more content than it creates. Yes, lets make it even easier that sounds great. There is no way this could become like that carebear abomination WoW.. right? I mean people sitting around one area in there little group waiting to queue up for their little action (risk free), not moving around or interacting with other parts of the game except for an instant. Then they are back sitting in there little group waiting.
Yeah this is definitely the direction things to need go. /s |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
1264
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Posted - 2014.07.05 15:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Wall of Text... And I disagree. On the plus side this thread was not about plex prices. TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Icarus Able
Revenant Tactical Ineluctable.
407
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Posted - 2014.07.05 15:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
The idea is that nerfing power projection will make it harder for alliances to control vast portions of space without using them. |
rogue Aldebaran
Rogue Fleet
3
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Posted - 2014.07.05 15:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Catherine Janeway would totally agree with you!
Crossing a Galaxy should be easy and quick. |
Yarda Black
Epidemic. Nulli Secunda
219
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Posted - 2014.07.05 15:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
I like the wall of text. Then again, I have a brain trained and used to remembering more than 4 words.
I have mixed feelings about the suggestion itself. I agree that nerfing projection is a bad idea. I get the feeling its supporters were never asked to occupy a region of EVE in the middle of nowhere. Or even fueled a POS in their life.
Making a smaller ship capable of bridging subcaps other than covops, recons and blops is an interesting way to counter the "but the big guys can get across EVE in seconds" argument.
I dont think that is the root of the current issues with SOV tho. Imho bigger entities are powerfull due to numbers and experience. The first even a result of the second. Big alliances have TS, Jabber, forums, maptools etc. The level of organization is way higher. I know about the need to login and soldier my way through a hostile fleet about a week in advance, including the required ships. My fellow soldiers are mostly veterans like me. That creates speed in itself.
I also think tools to fight SOV need to be obtainable outside SOV. In that regard I love your idea. Use a stinger against a helicopter. I'd suggest turning the "need to bridge along idea" around. The small ship has to bridge along, while only titans can create a bridge that doesnt include them. That way having that multibillion ISK ship remains a serious upgrade, but not the only option.
In short; I do not think "projection" is the real problem with SOV, but if it is this idea appeals way more to me than alot of other ideas.
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
929
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Posted - 2014.07.05 16:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Force projection is an issue, but it is simply a symptom of a greater issue and that is sov mechanics being pretty ****. Its not so much being able to move across the galaxy in 20 minutes, its the fact you have dozens of hours to make that 20 minute trek. Timers are probably the worst part of the whole thing.
In order to fix the whole ball you need to revamp sov mechanics. Anything short of that is just kicking the can down the road. |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
33
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Posted - 2014.07.05 16:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Well, after a little goading I got a ton of input and reaction. Thanks. I feel flattered and informed. i'll check out the links and ponder the reactions. |
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Haaranovor tenn
Trans Secunda Nulli Secunda
5
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Posted - 2014.07.05 16:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bring back motherships, give them bridges too. |
Dhaq
Anonymous Posters
9
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Posted - 2014.07.05 17:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Give hub stations in hisec jump bridges to other hub stations |
Seven Koskanaiken
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
1320
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Posted - 2014.07.05 17:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
rogue Aldebaran wrote:Catherine Janeway would totally agree with you!
Crossing a Galaxy should be easy and quick.
But then you would have missed out of 7 seasons of Neelix. |
Lugia3
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
1000
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Posted - 2014.07.06 13:42:00 -
[24] - Quote
A frigate gang can cross the map in a little under an hour, assuming their hauling ass and not getting caught in bubbles.
A battleship gang can cross the map in a little under 3 hours, also assuming they don't get caught in a bubble.
A carrier ball can cross the map in literally 5 minutes. Let that sink in for a moment. Ships that absolutely wreck any and all subs when used properly, are also by far the fastest. And don't bring cost or T3's into this, T3's don't have jump drives and 1.5+ million EHP. "CCP Dolan is full of ****." - CCP Bettik |
Garresh
Team Chicken and Waffles
319
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Posted - 2014.07.06 15:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
Eve should be big. As a solo player who isn't worth a cyno drop I don't care too much either way. That said, logistics are a key part of eve. I remember having to plan and manage my own supply line when I lived in space and how vulnerable I was when moving supplies in and loot out.
Frankly I don't know why null should be any different. I fly around there and as long as I don't visit major hubs I won't see players for a dozen jumps. Maybe I'm just naive but it does seem odd to me how a relatively "small" group of players holds well over 50% of eve's total territory.
Regardless, it has no effect on me besides giving me large regions of space I can have to myself while I make money. But it would be more fun if people in null actually tried to kill me with half the intensity of the players in lowsec. Its boring when nobody shoots at me for several hours. This Space Intentionally Left Blank |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
1267
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Posted - 2014.07.06 18:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
Garresh wrote:Eve should be big. As a solo player who isn't worth a cyno drop . I would drop a single capsule if its tackled. TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Felicity Love
Ka'ra Shabuir Inc.
1991
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Posted - 2014.07.06 18:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
Agreed.... MOAR projection, BEST projection.
Project right on through Hi Sec and up to the gates of Jita... such a pity everyone wants an "End Game" instead of just having fun.
Candyasses.
"Psssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh" -á-- That ambiguous and pseudo-technical term used by management to describe, to staff, how frakking cool something looks inside their own heads.
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Serene Repose
1424
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Posted - 2014.07.07 06:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
If God gives you lemons, start another religion. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Flamespar
The Southern Legion Final Resolution.
1231
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Posted - 2014.07.07 09:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
I think part of the problem is that there isn't enough interesting stuff to do in their own region of space. EVE Chronicle: An audio drama set in the EVE universe
http://evechronicle.blogspot.com.au/ https://twitter.com/Flamespar |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
500
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Posted - 2014.07.07 10:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:OK, so no comments about my general point of more force projection being better than less. And no comments about my specific examples of the fuel truck/bridger ship or using carriers to deploy fleets in space. Just a couple of inane joke posts and one post zeroing in on an offhand comment I made about smaller alliances using projection to damage the larger ones.
Yay Eve players! I love you! You're the reason why I play solo!
The issue you have is this: Any projection you provide to smaller groups can also be used to the advantage of larger groups, on a much larger scale.
Pre-nerfing it means that you end up throwing a bunch of guys into a system in order to see everyone dock up and hide from you while a 'home defence' response is arranged.
Small groups are inherintly better at moving around quickly and chosing targets. Power projection applies to logistics as well as combat ships. This means they can afford to make 0.0 more safe and more difficult to gank.
The 'solution' you are advocating is simply a Nuclear arms race that wont solve the problem. |
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