Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15353
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 01:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
frigates online... that's a pretty good one.
one thing i'm beginning to see is why this level V situation could stand for so long. you know, people have just taken it as part of 'difficult' President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Shahai Shintaro
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
51
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:04:00 -
[62] - Quote
Tibo Paralian wrote:How about stop using analogies to justify the status quo? I don't even know why I am responding at this point. You don't want reasons or anything else. Its obvious the only answer you'll accept is to let me fly whatever I want the second I create a character. Lets ignore the ramifications this will do to the eve market both inside and outside the game (you will never need to buy a cap sitter if you can just create a new character and train titan 1 in 10 minutes).
Just tell me this, how can you fly a marauder if you don't know how to fly a battleship?
|
Shahai Shintaro
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
51
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:08:00 -
[63] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:frigates online... that's a pretty good one.
one thing i'm beginning to see is why this level V situation could stand for so long. you know, people have just taken it as part of 'difficult'
Its not difficult. As you can see from my other posts in this thread, its common sense to have a general base before specializing. I want to reiterate that I am solely talking about the required racial ship skill being to 5, not any other skill being to 5.
If your issue is that why have a skill bonus that has to be at 5 do something to a ship, just pretend that bonus is a role bonus to the hull. There is a technical reason why a ship skill is required for the hull on top of the t2 skill. If the ship skill was not required, then you could train marauders without training battleships and then fly all four factions marauders. |
Tibo Paralian
Dirt 'n' Glitter I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
22
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 02:23:00 -
[64] - Quote
Shahai Shintaro wrote:Tibo Paralian wrote:How about stop using analogies to justify the status quo? I don't even know why I am responding at this point. You don't want reasons or anything else. Its obvious the only answer you'll accept is to let me fly whatever I want the second I create a character. Lets ignore the ramifications this will do to the eve market both inside and outside the game (you will never need to buy a cap sitter if you can just create a new character and train titan 1 in 10 minutes). Just tell me this, how can you fly a marauder if you don't know how to fly a battleship?
That's just unfair, you keep using analogies as if just because it applies to a lot in real life it must apply to a game. I definitely do not want titans to be trainable in 10 minutes.
Why do you assume that I do not know how to fly a battleship just because I do not have the racial BS skill to V? And even if I did not know how to, why does that concerns you or anybody for that matter? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15356
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 03:15:00 -
[65] - Quote
this is another version of the level V requirement: a racial T2 split, with racial Hull level III as a minimum for racial T2 level I. it's an example of the benefit put further away, without changing the effect of having it trained. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
530
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 20:04:00 -
[66] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:this is another version of the level V requirement: a racial T2 split, with racial Hull level III as a minimum for racial T2 level I. it's an example of the benefit put further away, without changing the effect of having it trained. No. We do not need everyone and there alt able to fly every T2 ship in the game in a few months. It would remove meaningful choices from the training process. This would be bad. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1017
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 20:47:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tibo Paralian wrote:That's just unfair I LOL'd
|
Rain6637
Team Evil
15364
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 22:04:00 -
[68] - Quote
you use the word "meaningful" as if minimum requirements yield a well-rounded ship President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
531
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 04:13:00 -
[69] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:you use the word "meaningful" as if minimum requirements yield a well-rounded ship I don't think you understand what "meaningful" means. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15364
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 06:44:00 -
[70] - Quote
awesome! ninety days of meaningful training to sit in a marauder President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
|
Zalbrak
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 09:22:00 -
[71] - Quote
It is because of the 90 days of prerequisites that it is a meaningful choice to train Marauders, because it is the choice to not be training for, say, exhumers, or interdictors, or recons, or assault frigates or command ships or ... |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1019
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 15:07:00 -
[72] - Quote
Zalbrak wrote:It is because of the 90 days of prerequisites that it is a meaningful choice to train Marauders, because it is the choice to not be training for, say, exhumers, or interdictors, or recons, or assault frigates or command ships or ...
What if I want to fly all instead of one?
I want it now!
Now I said! |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15364
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 17:56:00 -
[73] - Quote
ok. I guess all that's left to do is train all T2 skills to V, so that my clones will be as expensive and meaningful as possible when the racial T2 redistribution happens. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15366
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 05:08:00 -
[74] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/X3jP4mg.jpg President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
535
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 19:15:00 -
[75] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:ok. I guess all that's left to do is train all T2 skills to V, so that my clones will be as expensive and meaningful as possible when the racial T2 redistribution happens. Source?
And no, a random image doesn't count. |
Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
257
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 19:46:00 -
[76] - Quote
It is a game design decision. The amount of time needed to get specific ship. When jump freighter changed, for example, the time remained about the same. Same when bs Lev 5 was removed from capital hulls. Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
JAF Anders
Quantum Cats Syndicate Repeat 0ffenders
258
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 20:24:00 -
[77] - Quote
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there. It's a marketing decision more than a game design decision. Dangling the carrot in front of new players is only beneficial for the coffers of CCP in the short run, rather than allowing a much wider playing field to develop due to lower barriers to entry, the balance of which would attract more subscribers in the long run. The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts. |
Sinnish Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 21:05:00 -
[78] - Quote
What's worse? Having to progress your skills from frigate > destroyer > cruiser > battle cruiser > battleship or being allowed to fly a battleship day one(terribly) but having to buy plex to afford it? (followed by you losing your poorly fitted/skilled battleship, then quitting the game)
Either way CCP will make money(good for them), but in the ladder the players lose....especially new characters who don't prefer to plex for a BS hull.
Maybe this conversation has gone off on a tangent. Are you simply requesting that the bonus not apply per skill level(semantics)? Or do you really think you should be able to use tech 2 ships/mods at skill lvl 3? Sorry I don't feel like reading through the thread again. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1021
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 21:12:00 -
[79] - Quote
Sinnish Saken wrote:What's worse? Having to progress your skills from frigate > destroyer > cruiser > battle cruiser > battleship or being allowed to fly a battleship day one(terribly) but having to buy plex to afford it? (followed by you losing your poorly fitted/skilled battleship, then quitting the game)
Either way CCP will make money(good for them), but in the ladder the players lose....especially new characters who don't prefer to plex for a BS hull.
Maybe this conversation has gone off on a tangent. Are you simply requesting that the bonus not apply per skill level(semantics)? Or do you really think you should be able to use tech 2 ships/mods at skill lvl 3? Sorry I don't feel like reading through the thread again.
The OP is asking for the removal of the base level 5 skill requirement to fly T2 ships. All T2 ships and guns require the base skill to be at 5. I know CCP made an exception for Jump Freighters. |
Sinnish Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 21:25:00 -
[80] - Quote
IIshira wrote:The OP is asking for the removal of the base level 5 skill requirement to fly T2 ships. All T2 ships and guns require the base skill to be at 5. I know CCP made an exception for Jump Freighters.
Thanks. And I disagree.
My SP have been distributed in a way that makes my character have.....character. The game wouldn't feel the same if I could change my mind and go from an explorer to miner using t2 mods/ships in a matter of days. |
|
Opertone
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
292
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 21:42:00 -
[81] - Quote
Ok, I'll give you an example why insta training and fast access to all is bad.
I have 5 mill unallocated SP points, I can log on to test server and spend the SPs to my liking.
Every now and then there is a new mirror, so I get back the 5 mill SPs and by now I have tried and tested almost all ship available in game. In fact it ruined the gameplay, the anticipation the intrigue. I have tried every available ship in game.
Thus being able to master everything at once with little or no wait time will make the game completely pointless.
Imagine if in WoW you could skip the leveling process, and jump straight to the highest level. Then high SP characters would too common and the game would have no goal and no playing value |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
536
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 22:16:00 -
[82] - Quote
Opertone wrote:Imagine if in WoW you could skip the leveling process, and jump straight to the highest level. Then high SP characters would too common and the game would have no goal and no playing value From what I understand this can basically be done in WoW. And its part of what makes WoW terrible. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1421
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 23:06:00 -
[83] - Quote
Opertone wrote:Ok, I'll give you an example why insta training and fast access to all is bad.
I have 5 mill unallocated SP points, I can log on to test server and spend the SPs to my liking.
Every now and then there is a new mirror, so I get back the 5 mill SPs and by now I have tried and tested almost all ship available in game. In fact it ruined the gameplay, the anticipation the intrigue. I have tried every available ship in game.
Thus being able to master everything at once with little or no wait time will make the game completely pointless.
Imagine if in WoW you could skip the leveling process, and jump straight to the highest level. Then high SP characters would too common and the game would have no goal and no playing value LOL at how you can actually test a ship on a server with less then 50 average active players, free modules and no lasting consequences.
I'm 'young' and just getting into my first t2 cruisers, but in the meantime I still find new fits/tactics to try out in those t1 frigs I almost finished maxing out 6 months ago (I'm talking about pvp of course). I also don't really expect to do anything radically new gameplay-wise in an ishtar vs. a vexor navy issue, except being much more useful to my corpmates and a more interesting foe for my enemies. Along with the thrill of risking a few hundred mil instead of a few dozen (and again, giving my enemies the chance to get a 'tastier' killmail if we f*k up).
OTOH, EVE would be a pretty fail game if the only thing that made a force recon interesting compared to a rifter was the months you have to wait to sit into one, as your post implies ('my gameplay is ruined because I sat in every ship in the game for at least a day').
Individual player skill, fleet tactics and real loss (ISK) is what makes the gameplay interesting. An year-old player like me, that is passionate about the game, has pvp-ed his arse off doing his best to learn, has made awesome friends (& foes) and is good at making a decent amount of ISK, can put a properly-fit sacrilege to better use than some bored mission runner that just happened to start playing an year before I did. By proper use I mean taking part in generating engaging content for others, not only for myself.
Yet with the current t2 prereqs (for both ships and weapons) I have to wait several weeks.
No big deal, I'm a patient dude, but how is one less decently-flown sac out there making the game better? Not for me, but for the rest of the playerbase? EVE Online: Death-o-meter |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1021
|
Posted - 2014.07.17 23:08:00 -
[84] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Opertone wrote:Imagine if in WoW you could skip the leveling process, and jump straight to the highest level. Then high SP characters would too common and the game would have no goal and no playing value From what I understand this can basically be done in WoW. And its part of what makes WoW terrible.
I hope Eve never falls to the "Instant gratification, I want it now" crowd but if it does maybe it will be known as "EvE" |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15368
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 00:02:00 -
[85] - Quote
I'm not asking for anything; I have T2 ships trained completely 10... 11... 12 times over. I was just asking why. having asked that:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Rain6637 wrote:ok. I guess all that's left to do is train all T2 skills to V, so that my clones will be as expensive and meaningful as possible when the racial T2 redistribution happens. Source? And no, a random image doesn't count. My source is 1:the current skill structure and 2:the fact that players seem to accept it. If both of those are to remain constant through iteration changes, it would mean racial T2 skills. It's merely more of what has been done and what most players in this thread seem to support: awkward, obscure, impractical and long skill minimums. It preserves the idea of skill prestige that is apparently a good thing. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
537
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 00:50:00 -
[86] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:My source is 1:the current skill structure and 2:the fact that players seem to accept it. If both of those are to remain constant through iteration changes, it would mean racial T2 skills. It's merely more of what has been done and what most players in this thread seem to support: awkward, obscure, impractical and long skill minimums. It preserves the idea of skill prestige that is apparently a good thing. You aren't making much sense here. How does the current skill system and the fact that most players like it imply that radical changes to T2 ship skills are coming? If anything this premise indicates that radical changes to T2 ship skills are not coming.
The only things that make major changes happen are CCP's vision for EVE, which I doubt that you really understand any more than anyone else here that does not work for CCP, and player majority opinion as backed up by clear, logical, and well articulated arguments, which you have not presented.
So I ask again. Source? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15371
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 01:02:00 -
[87] - Quote
it's just an extension of your logic and your idea of meaningful. far-off = meaningful, and meaningful is good, right?
surely you don't expect the skill structure to always stay the same. iteration = change, and between moving toward what I suggested and the example racial T2 skills, which way do you think is more likely?
nevermind what I think would make sense, I'm over it. I'm just going by what players have made clear in this thread, and their idea of what it means to specialize. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Orin Solette
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
5
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 07:06:00 -
[88] - Quote
Honestly, the OP is on to something here.
However, I would add this.
All T2 ship hulls have no bonuses whatsoever if you have no Mastery levels in it. Roll up the Role bonuses, Racial Hull bonuses, and Ship Class bonuses together and tie them to Mastery instead. Essentially, you are just sitting in an expensive piece of metal at Mastery 0 (or just make it until you can't sit in the ship at all until Mastery I). Every level of Mastery would give you more bonuses until the ship is finally worth the cost. The point at which it's worth the cost is up to you.
Let's take the Paladin:
Mastery 0 bonuses: Nothing (or you can't fly it yet until Mastery I).
Mastery I: 30% damage bonus, 5% cap recharge, 7.5% optimal, 7.5% Armor Repairer amount, 20% tractor beam range, 14% MJD delay reduction.
Mastery III: 90% damage bonus, 15% cap recharge, 22.5% optimal, 22.5% repper, 60% tractor, 42% MJD delay
Mastery V: All bonuses maxed (as if you currently had Amarr BS V and Marauders V).
This would mean that you actually get more improvements periodically and puts skilling up to V at the END of the grind rather than right up at the beginning.
Meanwhile, with T1 hulls, stay the same as is. They improve with Racial Hull abilities so maxing out the bonuses for keeping them is much quicker. And since we are using Mastery to unlock everything for T2 hulls, we can just lower the rank of racial hull abilities to make them go by faster as they are no longer just the barrier to enter T2.
To accompany this, we would need an overhaul of the mastery requirements to adjust the T2 the time sinks and make it an interesting choice to max out a T1 early on or to slowly grind the T2 mastery up instead.
The end result would be that T1 hulls would still be more desirable to people until they get enough skills to make the T2 ship worthwhile since T1 hulls can be maxed out fairly quickly. And it makes skilling up that Paladin less painful because you don't sit there for ALMOST A MONTH waiting for one crummy skill to complete out of many others that you've already waited an eternity for. And it would even retain goals for long term Paladin pilots because Mastery V still takes forever and a half just to get that last 30% damage increment for the bittervets.
I dunno about you, but I still wouldn't be sitting in that Paladin for a few months if this is done correctly. The T1 battleships and faction battleships will perform better for me at first and take a small fraction of the time to max out. However, I would be getting small bonuses left and right as I skill up and it would feel much more rewarding in the end to feel like my Paladin got better than when I first took it out on its maiden voyage.
It's a rough idea and would need tweaking, but the primary goal is to prevent turning off newer players by making them wait forever with no improvements to their character at all until the end of the grind and to make having a T2 hull a constantly rewarding experience as you skill up through the masteries and gain little bonuses here and there.
Thoughts? |
Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
533
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 07:57:00 -
[89] - Quote
problem is the ISIS has so many masteries that are downright wrong. (ice mining for venture.. have fun with that).
honestly I dont see a reason to change the current way we do it, no suggestion i seen improves on it |
Aivo Dresden
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
354
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 11:50:00 -
[90] - Quote
It makes no sense to 'master' something and then specialize in a matter of hours or days. Large blasters, are a specialization to the large hybrids. If you want them you need to maximize the potential with hybrids first. Your character needs so spend the time to understand them and learn how to use them. Once your character has mastered them, he can start using the more specialized equipment that comes from them. It makes perfect sense.
This whole thing, your whole thread kind of reads like a whine about having to spend XXX days to unlock Y ship/module. It's one of those typical entitlement threads. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |