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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
538
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Posted - 2014.07.18 12:29:00 -
[91] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:it's just an extension of your logic and your idea of meaningful. far-off = meaningful, and meaningful is good, right?
surely you don't expect the skill structure to always stay the same. iteration = change, and between moving toward what I suggested and the example racial T2 skills, which way do you think is more likely?
nevermind what I think would make sense, I'm over it. I'm just going by what players have made clear in this thread, and their idea of what it means to specialize. Hooray for reductio ad absurdum. Sorry but that's not how game design works. |
Zalbrak
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
1
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Posted - 2014.07.18 12:53:00 -
[92] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:it's just an extension of your logic and your idea of meaningful. far-off = meaningful, and meaningful is good, right?
Actually read what people are saying, not the strawman you want them to.
The "90 days" is not the meaningful thing
The meaningful thing is that by choosing to spend "90 days" in pursuit of Marauders, you by definition are not spending that time in pursuit of some other thing
a choice between mutually exclusive things is a meaningful choice, because otherwise, if you could have them all, why wouldn't you? |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1455
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 13:30:00 -
[93] - Quote
Zalbrak wrote:Rain6637 wrote:it's just an extension of your logic and your idea of meaningful. far-off = meaningful, and meaningful is good, right? Actually read what people are saying, not the strawman you want them to. The "90 days" is not the meaningful thing The meaningful thing is that by choosing to spend "90 days" in pursuit of Marauders, you by definition are not spending that time in pursuit of some other thing a choice between mutually exclusive things is a meaningful choice, because otherwise, if you could have them all, why wouldn't you? Because:
. you can't afford them all . you need time to learn how to use them effectively in actual pvp combat, and depending on the player's skill and his RL free time that time could be both much shorter or much longer than the arbitrary skill training time . not all are your corp's doctrine ships, and it's pointless to switch doctrines everyday because again, fc's and players alike need time to practice and perfect the underlying fleet tactics . unless you live in highsec, logistics can be a bit of a PITA and entails some risk . you prefer certain ships/weapon systems more than others because of your pvp preferences (ganking, cloaky hunting, brawling, kiting, solo 1v1, solo 1v5, small gang, fleet, etc.)
There are so many balancing factors in this game that I am truly surprised that people think that long t2 training times are so essential to everybody's enjoyment.
It's not like 10-year old characters never fly interceptors, bombers or even t1 frigates anymore, is it?
I honestly cannot be sure that waiving some lvl5 prereqs will make a better game for all, though I have the feeling that everyone having earlier access to more ship variety is simply more fun and interesting - it's a game, after all.
Conversely, how can many of you be so sure that it would be bad, when I haven't read a single sound gameplay argument, just 'waiting is good because it's good' or 'if I could ship spin every subcap within an year I'd be so bored'?
I mean, at least make an effort to imagine the impact (positive or negative) on the interaction of groups of players (corps, alliances, fleets) instead of arguing just the single-player impact (I wait more vs. I wait less). It's an MMO, you know?
EVE Online: Death-o-meter |
Orin Solette
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
5
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Posted - 2014.07.18 14:23:00 -
[94] - Quote
The main argument against change is not a bad one. It's essentially that you have to wait because then when you do have access to all the shinies, you've already invested in the game enough that you won't just be think "Okay, mission accomplished" and unsub. However, my main argument is that if a newbie does want to train for T2 hulls early on, it's not good for morale or retention to lock it behind nothing except Racial Hull V and some other stuff that takes forever to get to V that you normally wouldn't level until year 2 or 3 of your game sub. Character growth early on should be littered with little milestones. Not 26 static days of nothing.
And also don't forget that isk and properly balance ships already make for interesting choices for new players to decide what they fly on what occasion. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15374
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Posted - 2014.07.18 15:39:00 -
[95] - Quote
i'm conceding here, like ok, maybe the point of the minimum requirements is just for the sake of the hurdle. now that we've discussed what things are, let's take it one step further and consider what will be, as a result of iteration which is a matter of someone keeping their job and maintaining an appearance of new-ness. when T2 skills get touched, which they will eventually, how do you think they'll look, based on what's been done? President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1022
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 17:34:00 -
[96] - Quote
Orin Solette wrote: And also don't forget that isk and properly balance ships already make for interesting choices for new players to decide what they fly on what occasion.
Are you saying the ISK cost of a ship balances who can fly it? I hope not because there's plenty of spoiled kids out there that can put 28 PLEX on their moms credit card no questions asked.
The bottom line is Eve is about making choices for what you want to fly. You can spend that 60 days training for a Marauder or an Exhumer. Yes some people would like to be able to fly both but IMO that's "I want it all" rather than having to choose. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15376
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 18:45:00 -
[97] - Quote
if a person has unlimited access to ISK, they could just buy a character with the skills for a ship, and that's always been true... so where a person's ISK comes from isn't worth worrying about. in simpler terms, it's none of your business. Do you really mean to say your concern over someone's irl disposable income is something worth attempting to balance? President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Sinnish Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2014.07.18 19:37:00 -
[98] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:how do you think they'll look, based on what's been done?
I wouldn't mind if bonus SP was gained by using mods that require skills. For example, kill something while using a light missing launcher > +100 SP to LML's.
Maybe add a new metric like Expertise. Using a mod/ship gives expertise, after x amount of expertise is gained "advanced"(t2) items are unlocked.
Handing over t2 items with no barrier other than isk will ruin the game.
WoW runs into this issue every patch. Players finish the content and have nothing else to achieve after a month or two and unsub. Nothing to work towards = no reason to play. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
540
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 20:24:00 -
[99] - Quote
Orin Solette wrote:And also don't forget that isk and properly balance ships already make for interesting choices for new players to decide what they fly on what occasion. People once thought that the ridiculous cost of supers and titans would keep them rare. People now know better. Cost is not a balancing factor. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
540
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 20:28:00 -
[100] - Quote
Sinnish Saken wrote:I wouldn't mind if bonus SP was gained by using mods that require skills. For example, kill something while using a light missing launcher > +100 SP to LML's. Dear god no. This would be exploited so much it wouldn't even be funny. |
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1023
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 20:47:00 -
[101] - Quote
Sinnish Saken wrote: I wouldn't mind if bonus SP was gained by using mods that require skills. For example, kill something while using a light missing launcher > +100 SP to LML's.
This is already available in a very popular game
https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/world-of-warcraft |
Sinnish Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 22:17:00 -
[102] - Quote
Ha! Fair enough. Something other than "everyone can fly anything with no training" |
Orin Solette
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
6
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 03:05:00 -
[103] - Quote
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:Orin Solette wrote:And also don't forget that isk and properly balance ships already make for interesting choices for new players to decide what they fly on what occasion. People once thought that the ridiculous cost of supers and titans would keep them rare. People now know better. Cost is not a balancing factor.
Mom's CC can buy anything.
And of course titans are getting more common. Toons are getting older and gaining those skills needed to build and fly them. Does it surprise you that people are eventually reaching their goals? Lol. Besides, the null sec coalitions have nothing else to do with their money because of the dead meta game in sov null. That has nothing to do with this.
Anyway, if you had actually read my posts you would know I don't even necessarily want to make it take less time to master anything. I just thought that the skills needed should be broader so there are less 2+ week grinds with no character advancement at all. It gets boring seeing the same skill on your queue for weeks. And while that's expected of older toons, newer toons see it all the time too because people are afraid of change.
Again, it should take long to fly T2 hulls. But Amarr Battleship V is like 26 days of no advancement. Advanced Weapon Upgrades V is like two weeks. See a pattern? For T2 hulls they are stacking a lot of skills together to bar them for the sake of barring them from flying the ship too early. Why not bar them in a way that would also provide incremental character growth and have it be more satisfying yet still take the same amount of time?
IIshira wrote:Sinnish Saken wrote: I wouldn't mind if bonus SP was gained by using mods that require skills. For example, kill something while using a light missing launcher > +100 SP to LML's.
This is already available in a very popular game https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/world-of-warcraft
They don't have skill ups in WoW anymore. It was a pointless grind. They already have levels and gear checks and skill checks which are arguably too low on the lower end content but sufficiently high at the top end of the meta game. The skill ups did nothing to help the game at all. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1023
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 05:51:00 -
[104] - Quote
Orin Solette wrote:IIshira wrote:Sinnish Saken wrote: I wouldn't mind if bonus SP was gained by using mods that require skills. For example, kill something while using a light missing launcher > +100 SP to LML's.
This is already available in a very popular game https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/world-of-warcraft They don't have skill ups in WoW anymore. It was a pointless grind. They already have levels and gear checks and skill checks which are arguably too low on the lower end content but sufficiently high at the top end of the meta game. The skill ups did nothing to help the game at all. I was referring to getting SP for killing stuff. I haven't played WoW in a long time but I think you still get that |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15422
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 12:04:00 -
[105] - Quote
so I've been told I don't know the meaning of "meaningful," "that's not how game design works," and reminded this is not WoW. the intent behind Level V skill requirements is apparently clear to those people. but they get quiet when I ask what they think skills might look like in the future, after extending their logic. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
546
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 12:47:00 -
[106] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:so I've been told I don't know the meaning of "meaningful," "that's not how game design works," and reminded this is not WoW. the intent behind Level V skill requirements is apparently clear to those people. but they get quiet when I ask what they think skills might look like in the future, after extending their logic. Well if you have a magic crystal ball that can see into the future please share it with the world. You seem to be under the impression that previous skill changes are a reliable way to predict future ones for some reason.
Right now the only even remotely concrete piece of information we have is the fact that CCP Fozzie might split the black OPs battleships into two hulls per race, each one focused on as different aspect of the class. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15433
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 14:41:00 -
[107] - Quote
sorry, I forgot. if a person isn't CCP or omniscient, their analysis isn't worth sharing. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
548
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 18:27:00 -
[108] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:sorry, I forgot. if a person isn't CCP or omniscient, their analysis isn't worth sharing. Without proper logical arguments to back up their analysis? No. At least not if they are going to just assume that they are 100% correct right off the bat and then start making suggestions for changes based on their assumptions. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15445
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 18:51:00 -
[109] - Quote
you're right, dude, without a direct answer from CCP regarding their intentions, this is just a discussion, and no one is guaranteed to be right. there are still points to be made, based on reason, and as long as they have substance. for example:
racial T3 skills are another indication that non-racial T2 skills is an outdated way of thinking, and that a racial T2 split would occur. A racial T2 split would also support the commonly held idea that specialization should represent a subscription time sacrifice. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Zalbrak
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 18:52:00 -
[110] - Quote
also now that all the T1 ships have been tiericided, you can have available a ship for (almost) every subcapital role in a month* although you will be utterly terrible in any of them, but that is what you are asking for
T2 represent specialisation, and that comes by picking one of those ships, one of those roles, and putting your focus on that.
So rather than saying "Golem or Bust" get in a (fail-fit) Raven on day 4 and notice how it improves with every "Skill Training Complete" between then and a Golem
* It takes 12 days without implants or remaps and change for an entirely new character to have 4 races of BS I, and about that much again for all sizes of weapon I |
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
551
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 21:07:00 -
[111] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:racial T3 skills are another indication that non-racial T2 skills is an outdated way of thinking, and that a racial T2 split would occur. A racial T2 split would also support the commonly held idea that specialization should represent a subscription time sacrifice. Since T3's have not yet had their much needed balance pass they aren't really a valid example. Who knows what CCP will do them when it comes time. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15450
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 23:39:00 -
[112] - Quote
sure it is. fwiw / maybe, based on the fact they were created later than T2, with split between races.
the basic idea that "the guy who made T2 non-race specific way back when" might not even be around anymore, and it's just not something that can be changed overnight President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
552
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 15:15:00 -
[113] - Quote
No they are not. T3 hulls are not T2 hulls. They have a totally different purpose than T2 hulls do (specialization vs generalization) and they work in totally different ways with their own unique set of balancing factors. So using T3 skills to make inferences about T2 skill changes is just silly. Now based on the current power level of some T3 setups compared to their specialized T2 cousins there are clearly some changes that need to be made. However what those changes will be is anyone's guess at this point.
Also, nobody cares how WoW is doing. EVE is not WoW and should not try and be like WoW. One of the basic ways to not be like WoW is to not dumb things down and let people get specialized into every ship and/or role quickly. |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
163
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 15:41:00 -
[114] - Quote
Would you still object to the prerequisites if the T2 hulls moved everything to role bonuses, except for the specific level-based bonus for that ship?
Example, Old Ishkur: Gallente Frigate bonuses (per skill level): 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints Assault Frigates bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range 5m3 bonus to ship drone bay capacity Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty
Example, New Ishkur: Assault Frigates bonuses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range 5m3 bonus to ship drone bay capacity Role Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints 50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty
Personally, I'm okay with the current system, as it maintains that thread of an Ishkur being tied to Gallente when you look at the ships's details. |
Sinnish Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 16:38:00 -
[115] - Quote
Gospadin, I believe the objection to a system like that is you get 80% of the bonuses for 18% of the SP.
Pretty sure this thread is over. |
Zalbrak
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
4
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Posted - 2014.07.21 18:26:00 -
[116] - Quote
Gospadin wrote: Role Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage 10% bonus to Drone hitpoints
note that you have removed 80% of the T1 bonus there, I think you mean 25% Hybrids and 50% Drones
I assume you also leave the Gallente Frig V requirement on flying one?
I wouldn't care if that happened, but also don't care for any dev time spent on doing it.
I guess you could leave things as they are in the code and just change the text |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15473
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 18:39:00 -
[117] - Quote
I'm quite pleased with what this thread has shown me, far more than the answer I thought I was looking for. quite pleased. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
3042
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 19:49:00 -
[118] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I'm quite pleased with what this thread has shown me, far more than the answer I thought I was looking for. quite pleased. There's a "law" out there with someone's name that states the best way to get information about a subject (on the internet) is , instead of asking , you make an assertion that is incorrect or inaccurate and watch as the community falls over itself to correct you. Apparently the quality of information garnered in this fashion is much more accurate and thorough than polite queries.
Intresing thread. "Confirming EVE is hot, batshit crazy, and puts out." -Omar Alharazaad "CAKE CANNOT HOLD UP TO BEING A CHARACTER DAMNIT." --áUnsuccessful At Everything |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15474
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 23:44:00 -
[119] - Quote
it exposes the reasons why people accept things, that's for sure. I also suspect people avoid venturing outside of 'what is' due to a lack of creativity. couldn't imagine it President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Sinnish Saken
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 03:34:00 -
[120] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:it exposes the reasons why people accept things, that's for sure. I also suspect people avoid venturing outside of 'what is' due to a lack of creativity. couldn't imagine it
I would agree. Plenty of people around poking holes in others' ideas but no solution or alternatives of their own.
I'm opposed to the idea but have offered my own. I think "constructive" is the word. |
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