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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 16:21:00 -
[421] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote: - We fully understand the issue about short jobs; the reason an "all industry jobs" skill seems more universally valuable is that it includes blueprint research, which at higher levels offers a fairly clear benefit for everyone on the vast majority of blueprints.
....Except for those that manufacture stuff for which there is no BPO CCP Greyscale wrote: - The problem with a workforce cost reduction is finding x that satisfies both constraints you mention - the costs are already pitched at "as low as we can make them while remaining relevant", so reducing them further is a difficult thing to balance.
So you can up the cost next patch and then knock it down with this new skill. Yeah its artificial but so is the whole game, we'll get over it. BTW, as a side note, you should assign Teams to factions and have them charge some LP in addition to ISK. Give mission runners something more to do after removal of all these POS standings requirements. ...and are eg inventing things with very short invention times, yeah, at that point it gets pretty flaky. We are intending to catch at least the invention case in the near future, by allowing you to do multiple consecutive invention jobs, but I doubt that catches all the edge cases. If there are others, I'd be happy to have a look at them and see if we can mitigate that if people can list them out. And yes, we can fake cost shifts, but that will need a bit more time to think through and manage nicely. Might well come with the advanced skills we're looking into!
<--- "brews" boosters in wormholes, how's that for an edge case? |
Bitter Fremlin
Heimatar Enhanced Fleet Industries
2
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 16:53:00 -
[422] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:[quote=Bitter Fremlin]- We fully understand the issue about short jobs; the reason an "all industry jobs" skill seems more universally valuable is that it includes blueprint research, which at higher levels offers a fairly clear benefit for everyone on the vast majority of blueprints. Assuming that every character who has the skill is also going to be conducting research. And of the kind, and at the level, of which will benefit from those time reductions. Which, I'd hazard, is nowhere near every character who currently benefits from the ME skill.
Quote:- The problem with a workforce cost reduction is finding x that satisfies both constraints you mention - the costs are already pitched at "as low as we can make them while remaining relevant", so reducing them further is a difficult thing to balance. You can obviously better estimate the impact of SCI on TQ than we can from playing on the test server with its highly skewed numbers. All I would say is that any reduction in job costs needn't be large to be significant to the players and that, as a cumulative modifier, a 5% reduction would be worth a lot less in real ISK in a sleepy backwater than in a busy industrial hub and so shouldn't tilt the market too much.
I thought about suggesting batch jobs, but that smacks too much of EVE-offline for my taste...
I'm not sure what the problem with faking cost shifts is? The vast majority of people already doing Industry will have ME5 right now, so upping the job cost by 5% and giving a 1%-per-level discount will leave New Eden just as is, minus (most of) the torches and pitchforks :-) And should be relatively trivial to do by altering the "adjusted material cost" used in the calculation (so you don't have an ugly "1.05" in the formula). That 5% will hardly be a bar to new Industry entrants without the skill -- they can easily cover that by shopping around for materials, picking a cheaper manufacturing base, or selling smarter.
There should be a skill that takes appreciable time to learn from 4 to 5, that differentiates the professional Industrialist from the hobbiest, and gives significant benefit to those who spend the time. ME was that skill, its replacement isn't.
Oh, and if that sounds too much like a giant whine -- looking forward to tomorrow. Interesting times (urinating dog). |
Mackenzie Nolen
XYJAX
8
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 17:28:00 -
[423] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Yup, that's my current thinking.
I still think it's a mistake to force the TE choice into this skill. Even moreso when it's going to be for non-mfg purposes which gets really muddy (all my bp research/copy alts certainly aren't happy about having to cross train this).
I still prefer my idea from a page or two back; have this skill amplify the bonuses received from teams (10% per level). That's the best generalized-specialized outcome you could ask for. A general skill we all have to V that amplifies the specialized choices we each make via teams is far more appealing to me than a forced TE bonus I still don't want :) Yet at the same time it doesn't need to be at level 5 for a new indy type to compete with careful team/system selection.
Also, anything that goes wrong with it you can blame on teams rather than the changed skill and, as teams are new and shiny, you'll have a lot of lattitude to tweak those values later without outrage. |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
111
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 22:09:00 -
[424] - Quote
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Yup, that's my current thinking. I still think it's a mistake to force the TE choice into this skill. Even moreso when it's going to be for non-mfg purposes which gets really muddy (all my bp research/copy alts certainly aren't happy about having to cross train this). I still prefer my idea from a page or two back; have this skill amplify the bonuses received from teams (10% per level). That's the best generalized-specialized outcome you could ask for. A general skill we all have to V that amplifies the specialized choices we each make via teams is far more appealing to me than a forced TE bonus I still don't want :) Yet at the same time it doesn't need to be at level 5 for a new indy type to compete with careful team/system selection. Also, anything that goes wrong with it you can blame on teams rather than the changed skill and, as teams are new and shiny, you'll have a lot of lattitude to tweak those values later without outrage.
By the same token a team bonus is going to mean very little to people in systems that don't have enough going on to attract a team to begin with. |
DooDoo Gum
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 23:44:00 -
[425] - Quote
I find it disgusting that CCP are giving industrialists a half-assed excuse as a replacement for a skill which was an absolute pinnacle for any successful industrialist to train with barely any say in the matter whatsoever.
The flow of industry is being messed with by CCP, and whilst i along with many others welcome many of these changes with open arms (which are along time in coming i might add). CCP need to recognize that the disruption of a potential 'skillpoint reimbursement' is nothing but a flow on effect of the changes that they are making to skills that we all trained in good faith.
It is mentioned earlier that CCP do not like refunding skillpoints because it messes with the 'flow' of the goal reaching aspect of the game. This is flawed in that :
- Any 'break' in the flow of skillpoint re-allocation is all equalized over time. 40 days is all it would take for anyone to catch up to wherever these reimbursed points are reallocated.
- We have already spent the money/time/ISK to train the 40 odd days to get this skill to level 5, so we have already 'done the time' as such. Since we have already reached this 'goal', we are actually having it removed and replaced by the changes CCP are making to industry as a whole.
- Every single char that spent the time training this skill to level 5 CHOSE to do it because level 5 in Material Efficiency skill was imperative in order to have any chance of scraping any profit in manufacturing.
Now dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that removing this lvl5 ME skill 'hurdle' is a bad thing to do, in fact, i actually think it is a great thing to do in light of not having a specific skill being relatively useless anywhere under level 5 but replacing this skill with another skill that may break all your hard work in removing it is not the way to do it.
Don't undo all the hard work you have done in removing the Material Efficiency skill by replacing it with another skill which is just as evil.
Bite the damn bullet, accept that the changes CCP are making to industry have no room for this skill, and refund the skillpoints. As it has been mentioned before by numerous people in this thread, it may not be the easy thing for CCP, but it is definitely the right thing to do.
Give us back our skillpoints and let us choose if any new skill that you want to implement is worth throwing our 40 odd days of training into. If CCP make it worthwhile, they will have no problem in getting every industrialist to throw their precious skillpoints into it themselves anyway.
I challenge you to make it so without undoing your hard work... but let us make our own choice in the matter not just the choice of a few who are active in the forum. |
DGDragon
Rotten Kimchi Squadron Brothers of Tangra
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 23:59:00 -
[426] - Quote
How about give bonus to team?
Change name to Team Efficiency skill,
give bonus 10% / level to all team in system when character set job, example. |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
111
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 01:44:00 -
[427] - Quote
DGDragon wrote:How about give bonus to team?
Change name to Team Efficiency skill,
give bonus 10% / level to all team in system when character set job, example.
I'd still want my SP back if this were the case, where I operate will be lucky to attract the teams nobody wants. |
Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
519
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 03:03:00 -
[428] - Quote
Even 5% time bonus to all industry activities isn't useful and isn't what I trained the skill to have. The majority of my production was done by buying pirate BPCs and manufacturing them. They're all 1-run BPCs, so I can't finish more in a given amount of time with a TE reduction.
This is a really poor replacement for the skill. If I was still paying for subscriptions I'd be cancelling them in light of this absurd treatment/disrespect of customers by CCP. I trained the skill to have a cost reduction. If the new skill isn't reducing costs then the old SP need to be refunded. I get that you don't like SP refunds on principle, but this is a rather more egregious example of a skill change (removal and new one added) than anything else recently. |
Mackenzie Nolen
XYJAX
8
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 03:26:00 -
[429] - Quote
Mhari Dson wrote:By the same token a team bonus is going to mean very little to people in systems that don't have enough going on to attract a team to begin with.
As others here have explained (even to me :), everything to date suggests the intention is for teams to be widely available and accessible to many. Sure you might not get the best or most perfect team to your system, but very few people should be locked out of teams completely except by choice. |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
111
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 04:01:00 -
[430] - Quote
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:Mhari Dson wrote:By the same token a team bonus is going to mean very little to people in systems that don't have enough going on to attract a team to begin with. As others here have explained (even to me :), everything to date suggests the intention is for teams to be widely available and accessible to many. Sure you might not get the best or most perfect team to your system, but very few people should be locked out of teams completely except by choice.
heh... you must live somewhere busy, there's only 1 other industrialist insys where I do my manufacturing. |
|
twit brent
Black Anvil Industries SpaceMonkey's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 06:24:00 -
[431] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Bitter Fremlin wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:- Adjusting the Advanced Industry skill to be a ~3-5%/level reduction to the time of all industry jobs, targeting (but *not promising*, to be clear) a July 29th update.
Time reduction is all well and good but it mainly helps those who can choose their number of runs (eg. T1 BPOs) or whose jobs take a long time -- or both! Otherwise the lack of control/short build time means it is wasted unless you can be at the keyboard when the job finishes. The difference between 4 hours or 3 to make 10 150mm Light Autos is meaningless if you aren't available for 5 hours ;-) Instead, as suggested above, how about something that adjusts workforce costs? "Employee Relations", adjusting all base job costs (manufacture, copying, research, etc) by x% per level. x should be small enough that it doesn't overwhelm the new SCI, but large enough that it makes a meaningful difference. That gives the Industrialists yet another choice -- more training time would mean they could use a more convenient, busier, system for the same costs as the lesser-trained competitors. And since it would apply equally to every job, regardless of length, it would be useful to both the casual and the hardcore Industrialist. - We fully understand the issue about short jobs; the reason an " all industry jobs" skill seems more universally valuable is that it includes blueprint research, which at higher levels offers a fairly clear benefit for everyone on the vast majority of blueprints. - The problem with a workforce cost reduction is finding x that satisfies both constraints you mention - the costs are already pitched at "as low as we can make them while remaining relevant", so reducing them further is a difficult thing to balance.
Why can't you see time efficiency means nothing to everyone who doesn't build on all their lines. |
Scarlet Bear
Alliance Mining Operations Command Space Warriors
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 08:49:00 -
[432] - Quote
DooDoo Gum wrote:I find it disgusting that CCP are giving industrialists a half-assed excuse as a replacement for a skill which was an absolute pinnacle for any successful industrialist to train with barely any say in the matter whatsoever. The flow of industry is being messed with by CCP, and whilst i along with many others welcome many of these changes with open arms (which are along time in coming i might add). CCP need to recognize that the disruption of a potential 'skillpoint reimbursement' is nothing but a flow on effect of the changes that they are making to skills that we all trained in good faith. It is mentioned earlier that CCP do not like refunding skillpoints because it messes with the 'flow' of the goal reaching aspect of the game. This is flawed in that :
- Any 'break' in the flow of skillpoint re-allocation is all equalized over time. 40 days is all it would take for anyone to catch up to wherever these reimbursed points are reallocated.
- We have already spent the money/time/ISK to train the 40 odd days to get this skill to level 5, so we have already 'done the time' as such. Since we have already reached this 'goal', we are actually having it removed and replaced by the changes CCP are making to industry as a whole.
- Every single char that spent the time training this skill to level 5 CHOSE to do it because level 5 in Material Efficiency skill was imperative in order to have any chance of scraping any profit in manufacturing.
Now dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that removing this lvl5 ME skill 'hurdle' is a bad thing to do, in fact, i actually think it is a great thing to do in light of not having a specific skill being relatively useless anywhere under level 5 but replacing this skill with another skill that may break all your hard work in removing it is not the way to do it. Don't undo all the hard work you have done in removing the Material Efficiency skill by replacing it with another skill which is just as evil. Bite the damn bullet, accept that the changes CCP are making to industry have no room for this skill, and refund the skillpoints. As it has been mentioned before by numerous people in this thread, it may not be the easy thing for CCP, but it is definitely the right thing to do. Give us back our skillpoints and let us choose if any new skill that you want to implement is worth throwing our 40 odd days of training into. If CCP make it worthwhile, they will have no problem in getting every industrialist to throw their precious skillpoints into it themselves anyway. I challenge you to make it so without undoing your hard work... but let us make our own choice in the matter not just the choice of a few who are active in the forum.
we have many more mini updates to come, hate to think what will be changed to good to worse, just hope ccp do not mess about with the skills too much, |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 10:44:00 -
[433] - Quote
Well I for one am eagerly waiting to see what (if anything) the new Teams feature is gonna bring to folks who build stuff out in the boondocks once the patch hits TQ. I'll at least be able to say for certain whether I can get behind making Advanced Industry bonus Teams somehow, because the bonus to job time (regardless of magnitude), definitely isn't gonna cut it for me.
I'm definitely looking to bring more industry to wormhole space specifically, but a bonus to job time actually makes w-space industry harder due to the increased hauling frequency needed to keep up with the manufacturing lines for that small subset of items that still make some sort of sense to build against the mass limitations. I really don't want the market to price in a faster turn-around time and narrow profit margins accordingly. I basically would not be able to compete with Empire industrialists outside of sec status restricted production. |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
111
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 11:30:00 -
[434] - Quote
I open the industry panel for the first time and I see over 2,000 1cm entries that are paying no attention to the fact they're neatly compartmentalized in their own inventory containers. |
Alenn G'kar
Temet Nosce Ex Astra
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 12:47:00 -
[435] - Quote
I would never skilled this skill at V omg 1%/l Pls lower the rank at least! |
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
5
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 12:56:00 -
[436] - Quote
Alenn G'kar wrote:I would never skilled this skill at V omg 1%/l Pls lower the rank at least!
Read the thread |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
111
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 13:02:00 -
[437] - Quote
for those of you joining this thread late, I'd suggest starting at post #1 and reading before you go OMGWTFBBQ. This skill change is slated for further iteration. |
Triturus Alpestris
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 13:50:00 -
[438] - Quote
I am so pissed right now. Why was ME such problem? So are you going to remove +dmg% skills bc you know they are mandatory, then remove per lvl bonuses on ships bc again they are mandatory! And give us more +1% velocity and +1% cargohold bonuses on battleships.
I dont know who designed this game but Im sure he is long gone. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
39
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 14:46:00 -
[439] - Quote
This thread has gotten rather out-of-hand. The shorter "science" time is good for the very reason that it would affect everything, which does indeed relate to a reduced cost (it's a fairly small reduced cost, but it still reduces installation fees). When it affected only production time, the savings would have been significantly lower. With it affecting everything, though, well, the savings are much better as you're getting a universal savings.
Saving 5% on a pack of chips at the store is pretty meaningless, especially if you only get said pack of chips once in a great while. But if you got to save 5% of all of your groceries, the savings are significantly higher more worth it.
My vote is absolutely for changing it to affect all science- and industry-related jobs.
Triturus Alpestris wrote:I am so pissed right now. Why was ME such problem? So are you going to remove +dmg% skills bc you know they are mandatory, then remove per lvl bonuses on ships bc again they are mandatory! And give us more +1% velocity and +1% cargohold bonuses on battleships.
I dont know who designed this game but Im sure he is long gone.
Comparing the old ME to the +% damage skills isn't exactly a fair comparison, as you can still be effective without any of the extra Gunnery skills trained. With the old ME, if you didn't have it to V, you wouldn't be able to compete at all on the markets, and would be losing ISK on everything you sold. You would be better-off simply selling the minerals. |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
111
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 15:22:00 -
[440] - Quote
Summer Isle wrote:This thread has gotten rather out-of-hand. The shorter "science" time is good for the very reason that it would affect everything, which does indeed relate to a reduced cost (it's a fairly small reduced cost, but it still reduces installation fees). When it affected only production time, the savings would have been significantly lower. With it affecting everything, though, well, the savings are much better as you're getting a universal savings. Saving 5% on a pack of chips at the store is pretty meaningless, especially if you only get said pack of chips once in a great while. But if you got to save 5% of all of your groceries, the savings are significantly higher more worth it. My vote is absolutely for changing it to affect all science- and industry-related jobs. Triturus Alpestris wrote:I am so pissed right now. Why was ME such problem? So are you going to remove +dmg% skills bc you know they are mandatory, then remove per lvl bonuses on ships bc again they are mandatory! And give us more +1% velocity and +1% cargohold bonuses on battleships.
I dont know who designed this game but Im sure he is long gone. Comparing the old ME to the +% damage skills isn't exactly a fair comparison, as you can still be effective without any of the extra Gunnery skills trained. With the old ME, if you didn't have it to V, you wouldn't be able to compete at all on the markets, and would be losing ISK on everything you sold. You would be better-off simply selling the minerals.
The reason why the comparison is valid is because this establishes a precedence where any skill = any other skill. A terrible precedence to set. |
|
Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
519
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 15:27:00 -
[441] - Quote
Summer Isle wrote:Saving 5% on a pack of chips at the store is pretty meaningless, especially if you only get said pack of chips once in a great while. But if you got to save 5% of all of your groceries, the savings are significantly higher more worth it. Except that with Advanced Industry I'm not saving 5% on everything. I'm saving 5% on the time it takes to get through the checkstand at the store.
If I was actually saving 5%, I'd be totally okay with that. The skill used to save me 25% on everything, and now it saves me 0%, but CCP is sitting here telling us "oh yeah it's totally the same kind of skill even though it doesn't do remotely the same thing it used to, so there's no SP refund."
That's not what I paid for. I "pay" for skills in the amount of time it takes to train them, and I "paid" ~15 days to get this skill to 5 in order to save money (indirectly by reducing minerals) when I build things. In any other business, changing my product after I paid for it would be a "bait and switch" and would very possibly be illegal. Switching this skill to do anything other than save money is a bait and switch, and saving time isn't the same thing. It might be just as good (or even better) for some subset of manufacturers, but not for everyone.
Please, CCP. Your customers are smarter than that, and treating them like they aren't is just disrespectful. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
40
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 15:48:00 -
[442] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Summer Isle wrote:Saving 5% on a pack of chips at the store is pretty meaningless, especially if you only get said pack of chips once in a great while. But if you got to save 5% of all of your groceries, the savings are significantly higher more worth it. Except that with Advanced Industry I'm not saving 5% on everything. I'm saving 5% on the time it takes to get through the checkstand at the store. If I was actually saving 5%, I'd be totally okay with that. The skill used to save me 25% on everything, and now it saves me 0%, but CCP is sitting here telling us "oh yeah it's totally the same kind of skill even though it doesn't do remotely the same thing it used to, so there's no SP refund." That's not what I paid for. I "pay" for skills in the amount of time it takes to train them, and I "paid" ~15 days to get this skill to 5 in order to save money (indirectly by reducing minerals) when I build things. In any other business, changing my product after I paid for it would be a "bait and switch" and would very possibly be illegal. Switching this skill to do anything other than save money is a bait and switch, and saving time isn't the same thing. It might be just as good (or even better) for some subset of manufacturers, but not for everyone. Please, CCP. Your customers are smarter than that, and treating them like they aren't is just disrespectful.
its not going to change we are just going to have to suck it up. Like what they did with the Diplomatic Relations skill.
Also to everyone saying that they will reiterate on the skill, this is ccp until they do it everything they say is vapour ware and should be treated as so. |
Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
520
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 15:56:00 -
[443] - Quote
Heck, I'd also be totally okay with getting SP partially refunded at a lower rate depending on training speed. Determine how long it would take to train the skill if I were fully mapped for it with +5 implants or whatever, and then give me that much time worth of SP in my current attribute map with my current implants. So if (for example) the "max" speed of training was 2600, and I'm currently completely off remap for this so a training speed of 1860 or whatever, I'd only receive 768000/2600 * 1860 = 550k SP or so. Drop Advanced Industry to a rank 2 (which it should be anyway with this bonus), and then everyone can fully train the new skill back to 5 if they want to, or go do something more useful if they prefer. |
Colten Tokila
Blitzkrieg. Get Off My Lawn
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 15:58:00 -
[444] - Quote
As a small time indy guy I just want to throw in that that this change has done nothing to help the little guy and it feels like CCP knew this replacement was a joke. The skill is nearly 10% of my total sp...and is useless to me. I choose to train a skill that would be useful for my corp, spent a significant amount of time training it that could have been used for something I actually enjoyed.
If CCP really feels that SP is more devalued more by doing a refund then showing that they will switch whatever skill you decide to train into with something completely different on a whim, then that just shows how woefully out of touch they are with their player base they are.
Subs are decreasing enough already, do you really need all the indy alts dropping accounts too? Do you really hate money that much? |
Bitter Fremlin
Heimatar Enhanced Fleet Industries
2
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 16:19:00 -
[445] - Quote
Summer Isle wrote:Saving 5% on a pack of chips at the store is pretty meaningless, especially if you only get said pack of chips once in a great while. But if you got to save 5% of all of your groceries, the savings are significantly higher more worth it. But if the only thing you buy, or ever want to buy, at that store is chips then it is back to being pretty meaningless.
You're talking like every single ME5-ed Industrialist is also a fully-qualified Research Scientist who already keeps all their Manufacturing and Lab slots busy 24/7/365. It may be worth it for them, but for us mere mortals it just means more downtime between jobs. |
Sjaandi HyShan
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 01:46:00 -
[446] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time But refunding SP doesn't devalue SP. If anything, what devalues SP is CCP taking my skillpoints out of a skill that I intentionally chose to train because it was useful to me and putting them into a skill that is literally useless to me. In fact, allowing SP reassignment when removing a skill and adding a new one enhances the value of SP earned over time, because I know that if at some point in the future CCP decides to "change" a skill into a completely different one I'll still be able to get some use out of those SP by putting them into something useful for me. I agree that refunding SP when making changes to skills is a bad idea in general. But there's no precedent for this big of a change to skills without refunds. All of the other skill changes that have happened since I started playing merely "tweaked" the skills, but they still affected the same aspects of the game. This isn't a skill change...it's a skill removal because a feature no longer exists, similar to the learning skills, combined with a skill addition, and forcing people to get the new skill at level 5 even if they don't want it.
I agree with the above part of the comment.
That being said, however, since new Advanced Industry skills are being planned, how about changing the idea of Industry->Advanced Industry->New Skills (which is already a medium train ~13 days to unlock new skills, with the first two maybe being useful compared to the unlockable ones), Advanced Industry is instead split into the new ones and let the players decide which one to have at V? I'm not sure if this is feasible technically, but this would allow the new (to-be-discussed-bonused) skills to have less prereqs, allow players to train the one they want, and give a good way to introduce Advanced Industry, Team Connections or Invention Precision, for example.
|
Angela Channing
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 03:52:00 -
[447] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Hi everyone,
Here are some bullet points: - Sorry for the delay in keeping up with this, we've been busy :/ - We're aware of the unhappiness being expressed here - We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops - We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible, hence the desire to repurpose this skill rather than delete it (reasons: we dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time; and deleting and refunding requires a fairly substantial investment to write the necessary DB scripts, run upgrade tests and correct any errors, and time we can reduce for work on things we don't want to do allows us to spend more time on work on things we do want to do; this is an imperfect statement of our position as I'm writing it on the fly to give you an approximate idea of *why* we don't want to do a refund here, but the statement that we don't want to do a refund *is* essentially perfect and out of scope for discussion in this thread, much as you may unfortunately disagree with it.) - We are in any case too close to the release to implement a refund at this time, and that is a non-disputable statement of fact precluding us from doing so even if we wanted to (which we don't) - We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week. *If* we decide to make changes, they may not be viable for the initial Crius release, but would be unlikely to trail by more than a week or two - We're not delaying the release for this issue; I assume everyone understands that but it's always better to be explicit :)
|
afkboss
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 05:44:00 -
[448] - Quote
"devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time"
This has to be one of the worst things a GM has said ever. You are changing a skill from mandatory to 100% useless and your worried about devaluing skillpoints.
I paid a subscription for those skillpoints and anything less than a refund is CCP ripping off its own customers. |
Celor Ma'fer
Jouhinen Inc
10
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:12:00 -
[449] - Quote
Mr Greyscale.
Have you started a new thread yet about what to do with the Advanced Industry skill and potential additional skills? I cannot see one, so could you either tell me which forum to start it in or link to one you have started please? |
Kivena
EVE University Ivy League
43
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Posted - 2014.07.23 11:14:00 -
[450] - Quote
Disregard, I suck at reading threads. Director of Education EVE University
Follow me on Twitter: @eveKivena
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