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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
H3llHound
Koshaku Tactical Narcotics Team
29
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Posted - 2014.07.16 14:33:00 -
[91] - Quote
You, as a small-time producer building for personal use I would say MatEff 5 isnt of good use as you dont produce profit orientated. Lvl 3 or 4 wouldve been enough. A huge timesink for little benefit.
CCP wants the skill not to be a entry-level hurdle but a high-end bonus. |
Aerandria
Cerebus Syndrome
12
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Posted - 2014.07.16 14:41:00 -
[92] - Quote
Just agreeing that for many people the new skill will show little if any benefit and would not have been trained to 5 if at all.
Refund would be nice. |
Sanyd Inyoface
Deep Discovery Industries
0
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Posted - 2014.07.16 14:55:00 -
[93] - Quote
Why not settting this skill V as a skill requirement for T2 T3 BPs in the bill of material ? This way you can : a) make sure new players have early access to the most common manufacture (T1) b) restrict access to difficult BPs (T2 T3) for new players (and untrained alts)
Everyone deserve to be happy. |
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
331
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Posted - 2014.07.16 14:55:00 -
[94] - Quote
This was a ridiculously stupid skill that provided no advantage to training it beyond being able to keep up with everyone else who was also forced to train it. There was no tradeoff on those skill points, no decision to make, it was simply a "train this to V in order to function" skill, like JDO V. Honestly skills like that should be reworked. If you were paying 5-25% extra to make **** then you were losing money on manufacturing, the skill was nothing but a pointless barrier to entry. |
Naira Isimazu
Exiled Tech Space Monkey Protectorate
0
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:01:00 -
[95] - Quote
I agree with the point. If the new skill will be nearly useless for all but supercapital producers, the skillpoints should be reimbursed. |
afkboss
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:11:00 -
[96] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Trademaster Rob wrote:mynnna wrote:5% faster building is 5% more isk per time, 5% faster that you can pivot and make something else based on changing market conditions. This actually is the second iteration and I do hope and in fact will be encouraging CCP to revisit it because the original change was more interesting, but let's drop the hyperbole and not make out like it's a waste, shall we? Bam Stroker wrote:I'm not even an industrialist but I know I would feel ripped off by this change. As has been covered in the thread already it's one thing to fiddle with the numbers while leaving the skill's purpose intact but it's another thing to change it into a different skill entirely.
Come Crius CCP should just delete the ME skill, refund the SP and seed the books for the new TE skill then let the players decide if they want to re-invest that SP into the new skill or allocate it elsewhere. If they did this, then when and if they do change the skill into something else again, all the same people would be back here whining about CCP having cheated them out of a skill This is the most terrible response I ever heard from a csm member. Speculation.. tisk tisk. It's plain and simple. Skill A got removed, Skill B got added. Refund for skill A, let people decide if they want to train skill B. That's it. I know CCP can do this. Oh, what's that? You don't like speculation? Okay, facts it is then This has never happened, I'll eat my hat if it does happen, and this thread is full of whiners. But whiners or not I will still be nudging CCP to revisit the skill as I said, because the original change was more interesting, even though it had much of the same qualities that made them change ME in the first place.
Build time has no impact on me, it could be tripled and i would not care in the least. This change for me will be no different to the SP just getting deleted. Maybe you shouldn't just think about how you play the game and give a thought to others?
If this is how CSM think, no wonder this game is going to S*** |
Bocephus Morgen
The Suicide Kings Black Legion.
151
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:23:00 -
[97] - Quote
I trained Material Efficiency V on several characters in anticipation of these Industry changes. If I had known this change was happening I would have not bothered training it all. That is several combined weeks of wasted training, I believe asking for an SP refund is only fair here. |
War Fairy
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
7
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:25:00 -
[98] - Quote
If there were still slots this skill would be more useful.
As it stands unless you produce very large things or are at the ckmputer the moment a job finishes this skill is of extremely limited utility.
The simple fact is that a mandatory skill is changinv to a limited utility skill.
Refund it and let those who want it buy it with the points. |
Fix Lag
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
781
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:26:00 -
[99] - Quote
People who can't do math ITT CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude. |
Nuko Akato
From Our Cold Dead Hands The Kadeshi
3
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:50:00 -
[100] - Quote
Please refund us our sp and let us decide if we want to invest in this reworked skill. thank you in advance CCP |
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Evan Giants
Plundering Penguins
3
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:54:00 -
[101] - Quote
Don't be dumb, CCP, just refund ME sp and let people decide whether to invest in this new skill or not. |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
2448
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Posted - 2014.07.16 16:05:00 -
[102] - Quote
Hi everyone,
Here are some bullet points: - Sorry for the delay in keeping up with this, we've been busy :/ - We're aware of the unhappiness being expressed here - We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops - We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible, hence the desire to repurpose this skill rather than delete it (reasons: we dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time; and deleting and refunding requires a fairly substantial investment to write the necessary DB scripts, run upgrade tests and correct any errors, and time we can reduce for work on things we don't want to do allows us to spend more time on work on things we do want to do; this is an imperfect statement of our position as I'm writing it on the fly to give you an approximate idea of *why* we don't want to do a refund here, but the statement that we don't want to do a refund *is* essentially perfect and out of scope for discussion in this thread, much as you may unfortunately disagree with it.) - We are in any case too close to the release to implement a refund at this time, and that is a non-disputable statement of fact precluding us from doing so even if we wanted to (which we don't) - We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week. *If* we decide to make changes, they may not be viable for the initial Crius release, but would be unlikely to trail by more than a week or two - We're not delaying the release for this issue; I assume everyone understands that but it's always better to be explicit :) |
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Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
323
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Posted - 2014.07.16 16:10:00 -
[103] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:- We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week. Please see that you do. This is weapons grade BS. |
Nuko Akato
From Our Cold Dead Hands The Kadeshi
4
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:22:00 -
[104] - Quote
wow just wow |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
689
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:23:00 -
[105] - Quote
Harsh, but fair. I would have liked a refund of SP for the skill, but what I want in this case isn't necessarily the best course of action for the game. Compare the reduction in utility for this skill with a nerf to a particular ship in PvP -- people who had trained into that ship are not entitled to an SP refund; neither should we.
Look on the bright side -- there is no longer a mandatory 15 day skill train to bootstrap new industrial characters. For people just getting into industry, this is an unmitigated benefit. I'll probably still be training this skill to 4 on any new industrial-focused characters. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Mackenzie Nolen
XYJAX
5
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:23:00 -
[106] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: - We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week. *If* we decide to make changes, they may not be viable for the initial Crius release, but would be unlikely to trail by more than a week or two
I know for me, this is a big part of it. I trained an ME skill, I want it to remain an ME skill. As I mentioned earlier, if I can drop a POS anywhere in hisec and get a 2% savings, I don't see how a 15 day train for a total 1% savings (0.2% per level) would be OP. THAT would be in line with the sort of change that happened to drone skills, etc.
Further, one would hope a new industrialist can use the "lumpy landscape" to make up the 0.2/0.4% diff (level 3/4 vs 5) through gameplay choices so that this doesn't remain a "must have level 5" skill but instead is just a small bonus for a long train. If the new "lumpy landscape" DOESN'T make it possible to be profitable without a 0.2% ME advantage, that'd be indicative of far bigger issues. |
X ATM092
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
332
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:26:00 -
[107] - Quote
You trained a mandatory skill, CCP decided mandatory skills are really dumb ideas from a game design perspective and made it not mandatory and you want them to replace it with a skill of equal value? I don't think you get the issue here. |
Ripard Teg
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
911
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:28:00 -
[108] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:- We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops
CCP Greyscale wrote:- We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition...
These two statements are fundamentally incompatible. You want people to have to choose specializations... then you're choosing one of the specializations for us... so that you don't have to do a SP refund. That's just forcing players through a hoop whether we want to go through it or not.
aka Jester, who apparently was once entrusted to Wield The Banhammer to good effect. |
Ria Nieyli
13047
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:29:00 -
[109] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:You trained a mandatory skill, CCP decided mandatory skills are really dumb ideas from a game design perspective and made it not mandatory and you want them to replace it with a skill of equal value? I don't think you get the issue here.
But what are they going to replace it with then? It's a prerequisite for cap ship construction, if it gets refunded people building the lower-end caps would just dump the points elsewhere. Do not remove a fly from your friend's forehead with a hatchet.
- Ancient Chinese Proverb |
Casey AtThe Bat
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:32:00 -
[110] - Quote
Change the skill to this:
1% reduction in manufacturing time, material research time, and productivity research time. Reduce all types of job installation costs by 1%. Effects are multiplicative with all structure, team, and skill bonuses.
This would mean that 5% on top of the normal 25% would give a 31% bonus instead of 30%. The effects would be even greater when you factor in the pos benefits. |
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Ravcharas
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
339
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:35:00 -
[111] - Quote
X ATM092 wrote:You trained a mandatory skill, CCP decided mandatory skills are really dumb ideas from a game design perspective and made it not mandatory and you want them to replace it with a skill of equal value? I don't think you get the issue here. I think people are miffed that it is being replaced with an unrelated effect. It's like replacing the turret tracking skill with a missile or drone skill and going 'meh whatever it's combat deal with it' |
Gaston Miromme
The Dromi Chain
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:36:00 -
[112] - Quote
I feel extra burned because I just trained up an industry character in preparation for Crius. If this change had been announced along with other Crius changes (While there were intimations that the skill would change, I didn't expect it to become such a niche skill.), I certainly wouldn't have spent the time to train ME to V.
A job queue, while an additional feature, would make this skill more palatable. |
afkboss
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:37:00 -
[113] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Hi everyone,
Here are some bullet points: - Sorry for the delay in keeping up with this, we've been busy :/ - We're aware of the unhappiness being expressed here - We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops - We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible, hence the desire to repurpose this skill rather than delete it (reasons: we dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time; and deleting and refunding requires a fairly substantial investment to write the necessary DB scripts, run upgrade tests and correct any errors, and time we can reduce for work on things we don't want to do allows us to spend more time on work on things we do want to do; this is an imperfect statement of our position as I'm writing it on the fly to give you an approximate idea of *why* we don't want to do a refund here, but the statement that we don't want to do a refund *is* essentially perfect and out of scope for discussion in this thread, much as you may unfortunately disagree with it.) - We are in any case too close to the release to implement a refund at this time, and that is a non-disputable statement of fact precluding us from doing so even if we wanted to (which we don't) - We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week. *If* we decide to make changes, they may not be viable for the initial Crius release, but would be unlikely to trail by more than a week or two - We're not delaying the release for this issue; I assume everyone understands that but it's always better to be explicit :)
"- We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible"
Can you not see that you have just changed a skill that i paid money through subscription to get then made it completely useless.
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Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
64
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:38:00 -
[114] - Quote
Bocephus Morgen wrote:I trained Material Efficiency V on several characters in anticipation of these Industry changes. If I had known this change was happening I would have not bothered training it all. That is several combined weeks of wasted training, I believe asking for an SP refund is only fair here.
I hate to say it, but, if you were reading the industry blogs because you were excited about the industry changes, you should have seen the statement that ME was being changed. It was pretty clear that, since the skill was a stupid barrier to entry, they were going to nerf it into the ground... and speaking as someone who has trained it on two characters, I'm delighted to see it gone, because it was a really stupid barrier to entry.
As I recall, the original proposed implementation was going to be some sort of reduction in job installation cost, something that would mostly benefit people doing lots of building near trade hubs. Personally, I thought that was kind of interesting, although, as noted, almost certainly not going to save you very much money.
If I have a complaint, it's that 1% *feels* small. I'd rather have -5%/level installation costs over -1% time, even though, with the setup I'm expecting to be using, I'll almost certainly make more money with an extra 5% stuff than 25% less ISK flowing out for manufacturing costs. Call it "workforce management" or something... I'm not quite sure what jobs are actually going to cost, though, so I may be off on my numbers. |
Bam Stroker
Van Diemen's Demise Northern Coalition.
205
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:38:00 -
[115] - Quote
I'll begrudgingly accept the technical and resource reasons you cited for ruling out the SP refund but this part of your explanation has me scratching my head:
CCP Greyscale wrote:We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible, hence the desire to repurpose this skill rather than delete it (reasons: we dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time This entire issue here *is* essentially about the perception players have that their skill points are being devalued.
Ok, so refunding the SP is in the "too hard basket". You still need to find a way to make players feel as though the SP they invested in training ME has value because as it stands they're being short-changed.
By all means please take another look at how you're approaching these skill changes and find a solution that preserves the value of our SP which is your own stated priority. EVE Down Under 2014 (Australia's very own fanfest) 21st to 23rd November 2014 in Sydney, Australia www.evedownunder.com |
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:41:00 -
[116] - Quote
My miffing is partially from how the change wasn't communicated, like many Crius changes have not been.
I've been playing long enough that a few million SP here or there isn't the end of the world for me, but I also have a bunch of new players in my corp who have one skillset to their name at this point, that being production.
Should barriers to entry be removed to most things? Probably. Should people be able to fly capitals right out the gate too?
Is this specific case being handled pretty badly? Absolutely. I'm pretty sure this could have been addressed during the 10 week extension on the industry changes had it been communicated clearly earlier. Here's hoping that the response to this doesn't remain as, 'well it's too late to do anything about now' |
Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
205
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:42:00 -
[117] - Quote
afkboss wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Hi everyone,
Here are some bullet points: - Sorry for the delay in keeping up with this, we've been busy :/ - We're aware of the unhappiness being expressed here - We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops - We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible, hence the desire to repurpose this skill rather than delete it (reasons: we dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time; and deleting and refunding requires a fairly substantial investment to write the necessary DB scripts, run upgrade tests and correct any errors, and time we can reduce for work on things we don't want to do allows us to spend more time on work on things we do want to do; this is an imperfect statement of our position as I'm writing it on the fly to give you an approximate idea of *why* we don't want to do a refund here, but the statement that we don't want to do a refund *is* essentially perfect and out of scope for discussion in this thread, much as you may unfortunately disagree with it.) - We are in any case too close to the release to implement a refund at this time, and that is a non-disputable statement of fact precluding us from doing so even if we wanted to (which we don't) - We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week. *If* we decide to make changes, they may not be viable for the initial Crius release, but would be unlikely to trail by more than a week or two - We're not delaying the release for this issue; I assume everyone understands that but it's always better to be explicit :) "- We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible" Can you not see that you have just changed a skill that i paid money through subscription to get then made it completely useless.
The skill was useless before. You just couldn't notice this because CCP tricked you with extra waste added to the material requirements.
Reading this thread and weighing the number of people who want the skill to change and those who just want skill points, no matter how flimsy their demands, makes me depressed. So many dishonest people.
Please people, CCP isn't stupid. They know exactly what you express when talking about how you want that skill reimbursed with loads of skill points.
Not dissent, but pure greed.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
691
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:52:00 -
[118] - Quote
Given that the skill is required at 5 to inject Capital Construction, I am even less convinced that a refund is a good idea. The utility of the skill goes from "a hard requirement to compete in industry, period" to "the thing you need to train in order to get into capital construction." This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Radgette
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
80
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:59:00 -
[119] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Hi everyone,
Here are some bullet points: - Sorry for the delay in keeping up with this, we've been busy :/ - We're aware of the unhappiness being expressed here - We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops - We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible, hence the desire to repurpose this skill rather than delete it (reasons: we dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time; and deleting and refunding requires a fairly substantial investment to write the necessary DB scripts, run upgrade tests and correct any errors, and time we can reduce for work on things we don't want to do allows us to spend more time on work on things we do want to do; this is an imperfect statement of our position as I'm writing it on the fly to give you an approximate idea of *why* we don't want to do a refund here, but the statement that we don't want to do a refund *is* essentially perfect and out of scope for discussion in this thread, much as you may unfortunately disagree with it.) - We are in any case too close to the release to implement a refund at this time, and that is a non-disputable statement of fact precluding us from doing so even if we wanted to (which we don't) - We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week. *If* we decide to make changes, they may not be viable for the initial Crius release, but would be unlikely to trail by more than a week or two - We're not delaying the release for this issue; I assume everyone understands that but it's always better to be explicit :)
blah blah same old crap about not having enough time to do what you should be doing with added we don't care how much this is ballocks HTFU /picard facepalm
Ye and you wonder why PCU is at it's lowest for a long time and industrialists are planning to mothball their characters
5% time reduction is not a good replacement for this skill. lets hope your next idea isn't so terribad. |
afkboss
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
13
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 17:04:00 -
[120] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:afkboss wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Hi everyone,
Here are some bullet points: - Sorry for the delay in keeping up with this, we've been busy :/ - We're aware of the unhappiness being expressed here - We don't want to have skills that are as in-practice mandatory as the old Material Efficiency skill in the Industry skillset - skills are supposed to be about specialization, not about jumping through hoops - We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible, hence the desire to repurpose this skill rather than delete it (reasons: we dislike skillpoint reassignment as the act of reassignment incrementally devalues the perceived value of skillpoints accumulated over time; and deleting and refunding requires a fairly substantial investment to write the necessary DB scripts, run upgrade tests and correct any errors, and time we can reduce for work on things we don't want to do allows us to spend more time on work on things we do want to do; this is an imperfect statement of our position as I'm writing it on the fly to give you an approximate idea of *why* we don't want to do a refund here, but the statement that we don't want to do a refund *is* essentially perfect and out of scope for discussion in this thread, much as you may unfortunately disagree with it.) - We are in any case too close to the release to implement a refund at this time, and that is a non-disputable statement of fact precluding us from doing so even if we wanted to (which we don't) - We are aware that you're are unhappy with how far the new skill is moving from its original value proposition, and we'll have another look at it this week. *If* we decide to make changes, they may not be viable for the initial Crius release, but would be unlikely to trail by more than a week or two - We're not delaying the release for this issue; I assume everyone understands that but it's always better to be explicit :) "- We are very keen to avoid doing refunds *wherever* possible" Can you not see that you have just changed a skill that i paid money through subscription to get then made it completely useless. The skill was useless before. You just couldn't notice this because CCP tricked you with extra waste added to the material requirements. Reading this thread and weighing the number of people who want the skill to change and those who just want skill points, no matter how flimsy their demands, makes me depressed. So many dishonest people. Please people, CCP isn't stupid. They know exactly what you express when talking about how you want that skill reimbursed with loads of skill points. Not dissent, but pure greed.
CCP forced us to train it, we had no choice in the matter and then they make the skillpoints we had no choice to spend 100% worthless.
Yeah totally no reason to be mad |
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