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Bohneik Itohn
Amarrian Salvage Gnomes and Associates
538
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 19:11:00 -
[121] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Such as, warping away in the middle of a fleet/gang fight, fleeting up with opposition and providing a warp-in, not repping their fleetmates in fight if they are logi, etc.
None of which is shooting them if I have a DPS ship and just wish to act alone, or convincing several other members to join me in dealing with someone who is being problematic, or tackling someone near some hostiles and holding them hostage. Or a hundred other choices I currently have.
You don't take options out of a sandbox. You add them.
And it doesn't matter what most Eve players think being able to fire on corpmates was intended for, it's a matter of what CCP's actual intention was when they made the decision to make it possible. Clearly they intended to continue on with supporting players' freedom of choice, because they have not only continued to develop their new projects with this intentional design of friendly fire being possible during crucial situations, and if they wanted to remove a players' freedom of choice from Eve, they would have taken out open firing on corpmates when they added in the "replacement feature" of dueling.
Stop trying to drape your personal opinions over basic game functions and pass them off as something entirely different than what they are. You can't cover up a couch and with a bedsheet, tell them that it's actually a corner table, and expect them not to notice that it is quite obviously a couch that has had a bedsheet thrown over it. Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya
Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8017
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 21:00:00 -
[122] - Quote
@ Nevyn:
Seeing you backpedal that hard was hilarious.
"Grr exceptions to the ruleset!" "except the ones I like".
That made me laugh. Thanks for showing everyone that this is not about new players, it's about your personal opinion and nothing else. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Arden Elenduil
Scary Devil Monastery
122
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 22:57:00 -
[123] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Not to mention an Awoxer can easily keep from being kicked from the corp by logging off in space.
Aside from the usual HTFU quotes and all that. I would like to point out that logging out, EVEN in space, equals being kicked. You CAN kick people that are in space IF they are logged out.
Please, before trying to make a suggestion, at least make sure you understand all the nuances of the mechanics you're talking about. That said, it's fine as it is. Awoxing is a profession in and of itself and as with all things in Eve, it's easy enough to prevent (API/background checks/...) and combat (fleeting up, using your own neutral RR, waiting him out, good communication,...) IF you know what to do, as is the case with all things in Eve.
I could be inclined to agree with the statement that OOC logi should go suspect, however this is a case of "be careful what you wish for", since those logi pilots could easily reship into something a bit heavier and can turn a regular fight against only 1 ship capable of shooting you into a furball in which you're suddenly facing 4 battleships alongside that single cruiser. Good luck with that.
And lastly, yes, the duel mechanic exists. But what if you want to hold a tournament for teams of people, or want to test out a "larger" gang composition with logi against a similar setup, then what.... Duels won't cut it since they only have a 5 minute timer and you'll end up running out on that timer for some people, and not just that but random locals could come shoot at your logi since they've just become suspect.
No, the system is fine as it is. Please take your whining elsewhere.
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Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
37
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:25:00 -
[124] - Quote
Kaerakh wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Problem: Awoxing in high-sec crops discourages corps from recruiting new players (due to trust issues, i.e. awoxers in sheep's clothing) which reduces EVE new player retention. Proposed Solution: Remove the rule that allows corp members to kill each other without CONCORD, etc., repercussions in high-sec. Corp member on corp member combat can happen via the current dueling mechanics, so intra-corp awoxing is redundant. Source: http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-newbie-zoneQuote: Once you get out into the wider world, our new players need to join a social group. Except that hisec corporations are skittish about letting 'new players' join because of hisec awoxing: griefers such as my own space-tribe joining a corporation and then murderzoning the membership through a loophole in Concord enforcement - you can join a corp and attack anyone in your own corporation, even in hisec. Here's another sacred cow to slaughter: hisec awoxing is absolutely stupid from a business and retention perspective as it disincentivizes players from reaching out to genuine confused newbies. The dueling mechanic completely removes the 'need' for corp members to shoot one another outside of Concord enforcement.
Or you could do basic screenings and introduce newbies to basic API checks. Employment history alone should give you a ball park estimate on SP, and API requirements are hardly anything new and quite common. You wouldn't believe how easy it is to filter out a majority of undesirables with a full access API. Any player that has a problem with giving out their API either doesn't understand how an API works or isn't a desired part of your team. So in essence. Edit: Can't believe I forgot this. Killboards, killboards, killboards. Perhaps your single most useful tool for gathering intel.
Because its so hard to open a new account with zero history... |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8020
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 23:53:00 -
[125] - Quote
Rapscallion Jones wrote:Because its so hard to open a new account with zero history...
Then how did he get the ship to awox in? The most popular awox ship is a Gnosis since it can get full weapon damage with no skills. Even then you need to skill up to tank it with.
So first red flag should be that he has assets that are beyond his ability as a new character without outside assistance. You will be able to see the transactions, so you can tell if some 5 year old character gave him the money, or if he sold a PLEX to afford it.
Second are his skills. If a "new" player has T2 medium Blasters and little else, be suspicious. Especially if he is applying to a mining corp. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1430
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 01:10:00 -
[126] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:@ Nevyn:
Seeing you backpedal that hard was hilarious.
"Grr exceptions to the ruleset!" "except the ones I like".
That made me laugh. Thanks for showing everyone that this is not about new players, it's about your personal opinion and nothing else. No, Concord is not an exception to the rule set. No matter how often you bleat that it is, it doesn't make it an exception. It is part of high security rules. Sorry you aren't understanding the fact different sectors of space can have different rules without being exceptions.
However, I've never been on this about new players, that was the Op, don't go putting words in my mouth. I've been on this because it's a perfect example of bad complexity to the game and the Op has produced an example of the kind of exploit caused by the bad complexity in question. You could individually close the exploit, but like I said, you are then trying to plug each leak after it happens and gets exploited enough to be noticed, meaning people get hurt by it.
The Simpler solution is to remove the exception. And use standard mechanics if you want to play war games. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8020
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 01:37:00 -
[127] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: No, Concord is not an exception to the rule set. No matter how often you bleat that it is, it doesn't make it an exception. It is part of high security rules.
So is being able to shoot your corp mates. No matter how much you bleat about it, it is intended gameplay.
Quote: Sorry you aren't understanding the fact different sectors of space can have different rules without being exceptions.
Likewise. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1430
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 01:49:00 -
[128] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So is being able to shoot your corp mates. No matter how much you bleat about it, it is intended gameplay.
Intended Gameplay does not mean it is not an exception to the rules of High sec however. Again, nowhere have I said it's not currently intended gameplay, though I highly doubt neutral Logi getting no flags is intended game play. What I have said is that it is a bad form of complexity now that we have Crimewatch 2.0 & have enabled a lot of alternative methods, since the game play was initially enabled to allow live testing of fits. Awoxing is something players extended it to beyond the design intent, even if it is still valid. So awoxing is not a good reason to keep bad complexity when it will still be possible to gank corp mates in a number of other ways than flag free combat. When it was designed we had a terrible 1.0 system of Crimewatch which was twisty turney and virtually un-understandable how flags propagated and which did and which didn't. Now we have a clear system, except in a few murky cases of which awoxing is one. And that Murk should be removed one way or another to keep the system clear. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1823
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 02:06:00 -
[129] - Quote
Just adding to the mail backs ive received
Quote:trail accounts, have not commited to playing the game. very young accts this is eve everyone is a spy.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8021
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 02:59:00 -
[130] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Awoxing is something players extended it to beyond the design intent, even if it is still valid.
Nope. The intent was that you be able to shoot your own corporation members.
It's not "bad complexity", it's not even "complexity". The safeties are more complex than this.
You can shoot your own corp members. The end.
Nothing complex about that. You are just scrambling for an excuse to make highsec more safe. Highsec needs to be less safe, not more safe. Making highsec more safe is inexcusable, especially since we have long since established that this is not actually about helping new players. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6231
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 03:05:00 -
[131] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:@ Nevyn:
Seeing you backpedal that hard was hilarious.
"Grr exceptions to the ruleset!" "except the ones I like".
That made me laugh. Thanks for showing everyone that this is not about new players, it's about your personal opinion and nothing else. Does the title need to be changed to properly reflect the contents ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8021
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 03:09:00 -
[132] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:@ Nevyn:
Seeing you backpedal that hard was hilarious.
"Grr exceptions to the ruleset!" "except the ones I like".
That made me laugh. Thanks for showing everyone that this is not about new players, it's about your personal opinion and nothing else. Does the title need to be changed to properly reflect the contents
"Get rid of awoxing to make established carebears feel better in their tax haven corps". "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1825
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 03:09:00 -
[133] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Does the title need to be changed to properly reflect the contents
would that be: 'high sec should be safer'? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Bohneik Itohn
Amarrian Salvage Gnomes and Associates
541
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 13:38:00 -
[134] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So is being able to shoot your corp mates. No matter how much you bleat about it, it is intended gameplay.
Intended Gameplay does not mean it is not an exception to the rules of High sec however. Again, nowhere have I said it's not currently intended gameplay, though I highly doubt neutral Logi getting no flags is intended game play. What I have said is that it is a bad form of complexity now that we have Crimewatch 2.0 & have enabled a lot of alternative methods, since the game play was initially enabled to allow live testing of fits. Awoxing is something players extended it to beyond the design intent, even if it is still valid. So awoxing is not a good reason to keep bad complexity when it will still be possible to gank corp mates in a number of other ways than flag free combat. When it was designed we had a terrible 1.0 system of Crimewatch which was twisty turney and virtually un-understandable how flags propagated and which did and which didn't. Now we have a clear system, except in a few murky cases of which awoxing is one. And that Murk should be removed one way or another to keep the system clear.
If you are the person who makes the rules, it is impossible for any rule you make to be an exception. It is your rule. CCP chose to leave awoxing in the game with every significant patch since dueling, and the two were never related in the first place.
If memory serves me correctly, the only reason dueling was even relevant in any sort of awoxing discussion is because people were happy to have an alternative for testing between Alliance members without going to low, null, or a wormhole and having the possibility of looking like an awoxer because they got jumped and ended up on the killmail. No one mentioned anything about it being an alternative mechanic to being able to openly shoot corpmates, and CCP has, of course, never said anything supporting that.
There is nothing ambiguous about the fact that you can openly fire on corpmates. You can fire on corpmates without getting Concorded. It is a simple concept that even the most raw recruit can understand. If there were limitations to you being able to attack corpmates such as "you cannot pod your corpmates if they have implants" or "you can only attack corpmates on every other Tuesday" or "Killing a corpmate wearing clothing from the NES store will give you a Golden Jovian Ticket, which may allow you to become part of their inner circle of Special Friends someday." that would be ambiguous.
It is not complex, nor does it add complexity to anything else. It simplifies many aspects of Eve which are beneficial to their gameplay. It allows freighter pilots to utilize webbing partners, it means that if my corp members' internet connection drops in a fight I can continue to rep his ship after he drops from fleet, and it means that I don't have to spam fleet invites if for some reason **** hits the fan and I need support from nearby members. All I have to do is say "Help me." over voice chat and then focus on managing my ship.
And no, ignoring this post won't make the problems with your argument go away either. Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya
Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help. |
Kaerakh
Surprisingly Deep Hole
392
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 14:25:00 -
[135] - Quote
Rapscallion Jones wrote:Kaerakh wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Problem: Awoxing in high-sec crops discourages corps from recruiting new players (due to trust issues, i.e. awoxers in sheep's clothing) which reduces EVE new player retention. Proposed Solution: Remove the rule that allows corp members to kill each other without CONCORD, etc., repercussions in high-sec. Corp member on corp member combat can happen via the current dueling mechanics, so intra-corp awoxing is redundant. Source: http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-newbie-zoneQuote: Once you get out into the wider world, our new players need to join a social group. Except that hisec corporations are skittish about letting 'new players' join because of hisec awoxing: griefers such as my own space-tribe joining a corporation and then murderzoning the membership through a loophole in Concord enforcement - you can join a corp and attack anyone in your own corporation, even in hisec. Here's another sacred cow to slaughter: hisec awoxing is absolutely stupid from a business and retention perspective as it disincentivizes players from reaching out to genuine confused newbies. The dueling mechanic completely removes the 'need' for corp members to shoot one another outside of Concord enforcement.
Or you could do basic screenings and introduce newbies to basic API checks. Employment history alone should give you a ball park estimate on SP, and API requirements are hardly anything new and quite common. You wouldn't believe how easy it is to filter out a majority of undesirables with a full access API. Any player that has a problem with giving out their API either doesn't understand how an API works or isn't a desired part of your team. So in essence. Edit: Can't believe I forgot this. Killboards, killboards, killboards. Perhaps your single most useful tool for gathering intel. Because its so hard to open a new account with zero history...
Sweet, and that accomplishes what precisely? A scrub that can awox in a rookie frig. What ever.
Schrodinger's Hot Dropper - The Fate of Forum Alts - Click me! Click me! |
Iain Cariaba
Veritas Theory
157
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 15:47:00 -
[136] - Quote
Kaerakh wrote:Sweet, and that accomplishes what precisely? A scrub that can awox in a rookie frig. What ever. a couple days to catalyst then let the havoc commence.
There's nothing stopping corps from recruiting new players beyond their own paranoia. Removing the ability to shoot greens will only further reduce the ability of newbie trainers of training their newbies in simple tactics like how best to approach a target to tackle it. If you have to start a duel every time you want to teach something, this will get tedious and annoying. What happens when the duel timer runs out and your still teaching?
So, no. The system works as it is. Last I checked, it wasn't difficult for a ceo/director to kick someone from a corp for being an awoxer. Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1433
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 00:13:00 -
[137] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Kaerakh wrote:Sweet, and that accomplishes what precisely? A scrub that can awox in a rookie frig. What ever. a couple days to catalyst then let the havoc commence. There's nothing stopping corps from recruiting new players beyond their own paranoia. Removing the ability to shoot greens will only further reduce the ability of newbie trainers of training their newbies in simple tactics like how best to approach a target to tackle it. If you have to start a duel every time you want to teach something, this will get tedious and annoying. What happens when the duel timer runs out and your still teaching? So, no. The system works as it is. Last I checked, it wasn't difficult for a ceo/director to kick someone from a corp for being an awoxer. Someone has never used limited engagements I can tell. The Timer is automatically refreshed each time you shoot at each other. So as long as both of you engage in some way, the timer never runs out.
If it does run out somehow, then nothing happens because you don't have your safeties set to red, so you simply can't shoot and start another 15 minute duel with a couple of mouse clicks. A couple of clicks every 15-30 minutes of teaching is not exactly demanding.
As for Paranoia..... This is EVE, it creates an environment where the non paranoid are punished hard and get awoxed. What do you think is going to happen when that newbie in a destroyer can have 5 logi repping him that you can't touch without suicide ganking.
And Bohneik Itohn.... 'You can't shoot someone without a flag in Highsec without getting Concorded EXCEPT IF they are a corp member' That is the very definition of an exception. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8029
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 00:47:00 -
[138] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: And Bohneik Itohn.... 'You can't shoot someone without a flag in Highsec without getting Concorded EXCEPT IF they are a corp member' That is the very definition of an exception.
You can shoot whomever you want in EVE Online, EXCEPT in highsec.
Remove CONCORD is the answer, clearly. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1433
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 01:18:00 -
[139] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: You can shoot whomever you want in EVE Online, EXCEPT in highsec.
Remove CONCORD is the answer, clearly.
Yea, already answered that one. But if you want to keep on that daft hobby horse go for it, if it ever happens you can enjoy the EVE Online that results with your 10 remaining buddies. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8029
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 01:29:00 -
[140] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: You can shoot whomever you want in EVE Online, EXCEPT in highsec.
Remove CONCORD is the answer, clearly.
Yea, already answered that one. But if you want to keep on that daft hobby horse go for it, if it ever happens you can enjoy the EVE Online that results with your 10 remaining buddies.
No, you handwaved it away to cover up the intense contradiction you are espousing.
Thereby exposing that you aren't actually upholding any principle, you are just pushing carebear advocacy. You're just scrambling for anything you can conjure to justify nerfing a playstyle you don't like. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
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