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Mekon Shraude
Exotic Dancers Club
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:02:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Critta
Originally by: Mahavy Seth /signed again! damn I also hope CCP do something regarding cap 0 consumption... what if we make that everytime minmatars ships shoot, they get a +1 cap recharge per shoot? (this can be accomplished by Dinamo activated by projectile run).
Wow, you really are a muppet aren't you.
Minnie cap usage is nominal, but present.
You get cap dead, your guns turn off, you don't need *much* cap to get them back on again, but the cap usage is there.
Get your facts straight before you start trying to be funny, or you might just end up making yourself look stupid ;)
errr, maybe you have to look it up as well . Projectiles dont use cap anymore
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Bhoki Tentor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:02:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Perhaps remove the velocity penalty and drop the damage from 60 to 55 to match the ratio between the other t1/t2 short range ammo's?
It still would be doing an immense ammount of explosive damage afterall.
>_< GAH, HAIL IS CORRECT, EMP ISN'T *head explodes*
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Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:04:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Perhaps remove the velocity penalty and drop the damage from 60 to 55 to match the ratio between the other t1/t2 short range ammo's?
It still would be doing an immense ammount of explosive damage afterall.
>_< GAH, HAIL IS CORRECT, EMP ISN'T *head explodes*
EMP is balanced the way it is because it's the only short range, highest damage ammo to do 3 damage types... ----------
- Office Linebacker -
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Critta
Black Omega Security E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:29:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Mekon Shraude
Originally by: Critta
Originally by: Mahavy Seth /signed again! damn I also hope CCP do something regarding cap 0 consumption... what if we make that everytime minmatars ships shoot, they get a +1 cap recharge per shoot? (this can be accomplished by Dinamo activated by projectile run).
Wow, you really are a muppet aren't you.
Minnie cap usage is nominal, but present.
You get cap dead, your guns turn off, you don't need *much* cap to get them back on again, but the cap usage is there.
Get your facts straight before you start trying to be funny, or you might just end up making yourself look stupid ;)
errr, maybe you have to look it up as well . Projectiles dont use cap anymore
Dammit... I leave the game for a couple of months... and look what happens
*takes that last comment back*
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:56:00 -
[65]
How did I ever miss this thread, like 2 months ago?
/McSigned
Originally by: D'Hofren The amazing boost amarr thread with it's amorphic elastic maths
Scrapheap Challenge!
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Bhoki Tentor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 13:37:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Perhaps remove the velocity penalty and drop the damage from 60 to 55 to match the ratio between the other t1/t2 short range ammo's?
It still would be doing an immense ammount of explosive damage afterall.
>_< GAH, HAIL IS CORRECT, EMP ISN'T *head explodes*
EMP is balanced the way it is because it's the only short range, highest damage ammo to do 3 damage types...
So what is your logic in lowering Hail damage? It only has 2 damage types...
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Max Hardcase
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Posted - 2006.09.01 22:20:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Max Hardcase on 01/09/2006 22:21:20 A good starting point for the tech2 Ammo would be +5% damage over a T1 and then add some special effects like improved tracking/range/falloff/what ever.
---------------------------------------------- Max Hardcase > yawn-o-rama Max Hardcase > is this typical of RA warfare ? FreaKsh0 > yes boredom fitted in all their high slots |
Wulfgard
Minmatar The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.01 22:47:00 -
[68]
/signed BIG time
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jernej
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Posted - 2006.09.02 02:37:00 -
[69]
signed
But I'm training for phoon just in case.
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 03:56:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Critta
Originally by: Mahavy Seth /signed again! damn I also hope CCP do something regarding cap 0 consumption... what if we make that everytime minmatars ships shoot, they get a +1 cap recharge per shoot? (this can be accomplished by Dinamo activated by projectile run).
Wow, you really are a muppet aren't you.
Minnie cap usage is nominal, but present.
You get cap dead, your guns turn off, you don't need *much* cap to get them back on again, but the cap usage is there.
Get your facts straight before you start trying to be funny, or you might just end up making yourself look stupid ;)
February called, it wants it's facts back. All projectiles use 0 capacitor and have been for a few months now.
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 04:16:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Akiman Edited by: Akiman on 01/09/2006 08:44:38 tech II rail ammos SUXXX! i think everybody agree on that and all long range ammos too...
End yourself. All T2 long range ammo is insanely uber (220km+ sniping, gg).
And to the "unnerf hail" dudes, seriously. It gets a 36% damage increase versus the 25% of everything else. Either that has to go or it's no deal - as it stands, a 36% damage increase on some of the best damage types to kill armor tankers is nuts.
You just don't get it, do you? Hail is inline with all other short range high-damage T2 ammo. It's emp that isn't Hail is 15(small) total damage, all the other short range T2 damage ammo is also 15 total damage. EMP is 11 total damage, while other -50% ammo is 12 total damage.
Which is what autocannon damage output is balanced around. Congratulations on getting with the times on that one. In a similar vein we also have more damage on longrange t1 ammo (carbonized lead), which is perfectly intentional as well.
Hence Hail breaks autocannon balance by providing oversized damage on a weapon systems whose perks are range, ease of fitting and no capacitor use. The penaltys are there to provide this fairly remarkable option of remodeling your autocannons into essentially explosive blasters with a proper cost.
Originally by: Testicular Testes
And to be quite honest, since all T2 ammo is overbonused anyway, Hail can stay the way it is until we get around to fixing it properly and eliminating the hilariously broken damage outputs all T2 ammo is giving us.
to reiterate, T2 ammo is kinda silly and verging on gamebreaking but hail in its current shape is in most situation unusable(suicide in anything smaller then a bs and for a bs it still has limited uses). IMO, they should fix hail first then perhaps consider overhauling T2 ammo(and T1 ammo while they're at it)
Hail in it's current shape is highly useable. It's deacceleration isn't instant, so by any means in small-scale combat where craft is comitted to engaging it's not just viable - it's decisive.
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jernej
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Posted - 2006.09.02 10:50:00 -
[72]
Im sorry but to claim that Hail is "highly usable" can only mean 2 things: 1. you've never flown a tempest 2. you've never seen how "highly useable" void is
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 11:10:00 -
[73]
Originally by: jernej Im sorry but to claim that Hail is "highly usable" can only mean 2 things: 1. you've never flown a tempest 2. you've never seen how "highly useable" void is
I fly both a Tempest and Megathron. And if you're doubting whether Hail on a 'pest is worthwhile, as opposed to Cruiser/Frigates (where it's indeed awkward, but works) I can't really help you any further.
I'm not sure what exactly your problem with Hail is. Are you trying to travel with it loaded? Are you running a dualrep tempest? Do you just dislike having to switch ammo before a fight that much?
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Bhoki Tentor
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Posted - 2006.09.02 11:31:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Bhoki Tentor ...
Which is what autocannon damage output is balanced around. Congratulations on getting with the times on that one. In a similar vein we also have more damage on longrange t1 ammo (carbonized lead), which is perfectly intentional as well.
What do you mean by this. What is AC damage balanced around? What? T1 carbonized lead is explosive and kinetic, 2 damage types the same as hail too.
Originally by: Testicular Testes
Hence Hail breaks autocannon balance by providing oversized damage on a weapon systems whose perks are range, ease of fitting and no capacitor use. The penaltys are there to provide this fairly remarkable option of remodeling your autocannons into essentially explosive blasters with a proper cost.
Problem is that it doesn't make Autocannons into explosive blasters, blasterthron will still outdamage ACpest with hail. What hail does do is effectively the same as getting webbed.
Originally by: Testicular Testes, but that's me who wrote that?
Originally by: Testicular Testes
And to be quite honest, since all T2 ammo is overbonused anyway, Hail can stay the way it is until we get around to fixing it properly and eliminating the hilariously broken damage outputs all T2 ammo is giving us.
to reiterate, T2 ammo is kinda silly and verging on gamebreaking but hail in its current shape is in most situation unusable(suicide in anything smaller then a bs and for a bs it still has limited uses). IMO, they should fix hail first then perhaps consider overhauling T2 ammo(and T1 ammo while they're at it)
Did you forget to put quotation there?
Originally by: Testicular Testes
Hail in it's current shape is highly useable. It's deacceleration isn't instant, so by any means in small-scale combat where craft is comitted to engaging it's not just viable - it's decisive.
Try it outside of small-scale combat and it's usefullness drops a lot. I didn't say it's completely useless, I've used it myself to good effect in stabber when out alone hunting other cruisers, but enter bs pilot that knows how to fight properly(aka not a newbie) and he would dispatch of my slow stabber in short order. The deceleration is not instant, no but the new top speed is set instant. That means that while your actual speed is still higher then your current top speed you will only be able to pretty much go in a straight line only(just like when you get webbed)
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Bhoki Tentor
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Posted - 2006.09.02 11:32:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Testicular Testes
Originally by: jernej Im sorry but to claim that Hail is "highly usable" can only mean 2 things: 1. you've never flown a tempest 2. you've never seen how "highly useable" void is
I fly both a Tempest and Megathron. And if you're doubting whether Hail on a 'pest is worthwhile, as opposed to Cruiser/Frigates (where it's indeed awkward, but works) I can't really help you any further.
I'm not sure what exactly your problem with Hail is. Are you trying to travel with it loaded? Are you running a dualrep tempest? Do you just dislike having to switch ammo before a fight that much?
If you wouldn't be a he would doubt you less
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jernej
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Posted - 2006.09.02 11:39:00 -
[76]
Ok you just downgraded Hail from "highly useable" to "worthwile". But I can't even agree with you on that if I need cargo space for cap boosters.
We could discuss for days how much the ~15s to change ammo nerfs your damage per minute or how much you hit when you arrive with +1000m/s at the target with 50% tracking penalty. But lets not, it's all been written before...
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Reto
The Last Resort
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Posted - 2006.09.02 12:12:00 -
[77]
i understand the hail draw back this way:
minmatar are a skirmish warfare race which benefits either from speed or from heavy alpha strikes.
if u fit barrage u aquire a longer distance for ur guns to hit the enemy and can flee if the situation gets too hot.
if u fit hail u aquire an enormous dmg boost but loose the opportunity to warp off that fast.
so if u choose to bbq the enemy u risk more than with the "nail it down from safe distance" tactic.
gallente ammo is similar to this but not exactly the same.
null gives u more falloff and optimal but does not have the same dmg potential as the TI antimattercharge. so u gain overall range and therefore chance to hit but loose dmg.
void on the otherhand gives u an imense dmg boost for the cost of capacitor which in gallentean starships is crucial. and u also loose accuracy by 50% and range by 15% comparing to TI antimatter which has a 50% range penalty instead of voids 65%.
all in all if u choosenull u gain better hit chance for the cost of damage and if u use void u loose survivability for the gain of dmg.
my 2 isk
Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
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nahtoh
Caldari Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.02 12:28:00 -
[78]
Rasie you the Javlin disadvateges...Granted its not that bad if you armour tank....but WTF is with reducing shiled amount on shield tanker... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents
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Posted - 2006.09.02 12:35:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Perhaps remove the velocity penalty and drop the damage from 60 to 55 to match the ratio between the other t1/t2 short range ammo's?
It still would be doing an immense ammount of explosive damage afterall.
>_< GAH, HAIL IS CORRECT, EMP ISN'T *head explodes*
EMP is balanced the way it is because it's the only short range, highest damage ammo to do 3 damage types...
So what is your logic in lowering Hail damage? It only has 2 damage types...
As I said it still does an immense ammount of explosive damage, probably the reason it has the velocity penalty in the first place, you want rid of the former there has to be a drawback somewhere. ----------
- Office Linebacker -
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 13:01:00 -
[80]
Originally by: jernej Ok you just downgraded Hail from "highly useable" to "worthwile". But I can't even agree with you on that if I need cargo space for cap boosters.
Let's not argue semantics. I'll call it awesome rainbowcolored death spewing out of guns if it makes you feel better, the bottom line on Hail is that it's extremely useful.
Maybe I'm just really awesome, but when getting a 36% damage bonus on an ammotype I build the ship around it and not just load it into my old vanilla dualrep 'pest. I've already mentioned it last post - you will be screwed in your dualrep Tempest, but then that isn't exactly a great setup in the first place.
And I'm not sure how exactly you're overshooting targets. That's what experience flying the damn thing is for, handle your inertia and come to a full stop within 14k (or let them enter 10k with minimal closing velocity in the case of Megathrons - ie let them catch you moving away). The damage lost from the ammo switch is in the worst cases about 8 seconds worth (you can't really be shooting while locking), in a hypothetical situation where you jump through an unscouted gate solo and encounter a battleship.
In every other situation I have Barrage or EMP loaded for travel, and Hail for BS engagements which tend to be predictable in both timing, types and ranges even while flying solo - nullifying the speed penalty almost entirely.
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 13:41:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Bhoki Tentor ...
Which is what autocannon damage output is balanced around. Congratulations on getting with the times on that one. In a similar vein we also have more damage on longrange t1 ammo (carbonized lead), which is perfectly intentional as well.
What do you mean by this. What is AC damage balanced around? What? T1 carbonized lead is explosive and kinetic, 2 damage types the same as hail too.
The other t1 longrange ammo only gets two damagetypes as well, yet Carbonized Lead retains it's unique advantage. The amount of damagetypes has nothing to do with it, as that's ultimately closer to a disadvantage (averaging damage out instead of allowing you to chose a more highly EM biased ammo for instance).
The meaning of the quoted sentence however, is that these things aren't here because somebody couldn't count to twelve or thought having EM/EXP/Kin was the best thing EVER. The ammo damage simply represents the intended damage output of autocannons and the amounts of said damage they can deal. If those were out of line with their fitting requirements and other advantages, a damage modifier increase would make alot more sense as it allows for better granularity (no need for integers) and doesn't necessitate moving every single other ammo type around as well.
The whole EMP/PP/Fusion balancing is actually somewhat clever (whereas Barrage/Hail are basicly both Fusion on steroids as far as base armor damages go), in that EMP provides the highest raw output whereas Fusion/PP both provide better damage against the most common form of tanking (EAN and Photon/Invul respectively).
Quote:
Problem is that it doesn't make Autocannons into explosive blasters, blasterthron will still outdamage ACpest with hail. What hail does do is effectively the same as getting webbed.
Yes, raw damage output the Megathron still wins. Now introduce the effect of doing 28% more actual damage on base resistances (and hence on EAN tanks) and the Tempest pulls up ahead in gunfire damage, while still holding on to it's nasty little jammer(s).
Quote:
Did you forget to put quotation there?
Yeah, forums didn't want me editing. I'm sure you were able to figure it out though.
Quote: Try it outside of small-scale combat and it's usefullness drops a lot.
None of the T2 high-damage shortrange ammo fairs too well there, particlarly not Void - whereas Barrage/Null/Scorch excel. Conflag survives somewhat I guess, but that's not the point - the point is that all high-damage shortrange T2 ammo is somewhat biased around limited size engagements via range penaltys. Hail receives a velocity penalty for the ability to keep most of it's range by keeping standard falloff.
If anything, that makes it slightly more useable than Void in that situation. But I totally agree that it's bad in groups. It just isn't alone in that position
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Michuh
Vortex. Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.02 14:27:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Clavius XIV Perhaps remove the speed penalty for Hail, and add a penalty to warp core strength, and don't allow ammo swap if scrambled.
/signed
Pesky stababonds
Maelstrom Recruitment
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jernej
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Posted - 2006.09.02 15:14:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Testicular Testes
Originally by: jernej Ok you just downgraded Hail from "highly useable" to "worthwile". But I can't even agree with you on that if I need cargo space for cap boosters.
Let's not argue semantics. I'll call it awesome rainbowcolored death spewing out of guns if it makes you feel better, the bottom line on Hail is that it's extremely useful.
Maybe I'm just really awesome, but when getting a 36% damage bonus on an ammotype I build the ship around it and not just load it into my old vanilla dualrep 'pest. I've already mentioned it last post - you will be screwed in your dualrep Tempest, but then that isn't exactly a great setup in the first place.
And I'm not sure how exactly you're overshooting targets. That's what experience flying the damn thing is for, handle your inertia and come to a full stop within 14k (or let them enter 10k with minimal closing velocity in the case of Megathrons - ie let them catch you moving away). The damage lost from the ammo switch is in the worst cases about 8 seconds worth (you can't really be shooting while locking), in a hypothetical situation where you jump through an unscouted gate solo and encounter a battleship.
In every other situation I have Barrage or EMP loaded for travel, and Hail for BS engagements which tend to be predictable in both timing, types and ranges even while flying solo - nullifying the speed penalty almost entirely.
Now we found your problem, you're awesome and most people aren't. Now if you ever happen to stumble upon an awesome mega, domi, raven, phoon pilot be sure to have a multi or two on your tempest.
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2006.09.02 15:33:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Reto i understand the hail draw back this way:
So... basically you just stated the obvious. Thanks for that.
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Nyxus
GALAXIAN Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.09.02 15:54:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Nyxus on 02/09/2006 15:54:41 Ok I admit: With a speed penalty that stacks(!) Hail is pretty freakin worthless. Usefull in some specific setups, but not really.
But honestly, if it didn't have the speed penalty it would be omfg uber in it's current state. If they tweaked the expl % down a bit, and gave it a falloff penalty I don't see why it wouldn't be balanced as it would force Matari ships to get closer (think webrange) in order to do more damage. The Optimal penalties of Void (65%) and Conflag(50%) hurt thier racial ships MUCH more than an optimal penalty hurts Projectiles.
Void: 28Kin/32Therm, 65% range decrease, 25% cap increase
Conflag: 32EM/28Therm, 50% range decrease, 25% cap increase
New Hail: 32Expl/28Kin, 50% falloff decrease, shooting requires a small amount of cap
If you look at all the range decreases for T2 Ammo, it's clear to see it's 50%. The decrease to Falloff should follow suit. The original decrease to optimal really didn't nothing to hinder Projectiles much. Requiring a cap use similar to what AC's used pre-bonus would also be exactly in line with the other T2 ammos as well.
And as long as we are fixing ammos give Amarr thier Explosive Crystals with 50% range reduction. Then give Matari an Ammo that has the same damage as they do now (Expl/Kin) but gives a 10% speed increase (per gun) and a 2% Signature Decrease (per gun) and a 50% Falloff reduction. It will create some stupid 5km/s Phoons but everthing else will actually be *significantly* faster that other racial ships.
I concur that Matari ships should be more than 15m/s faster than my Amarr armored behemoths. Of course, Amarr should have more base armor than they have now too.
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Mikal Drey
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.09.02 16:35:00 -
[86]
hey hey
I can totally handle the penalties of the TII ammo but the fact that it stacks makes it ú$%"ú%ú%$ú%%"ú%"ú crap.
its like being webbed.
/signed /signed to make any changes to TII ammo as its pants.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.02 17:13:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey
I can totally handle the penalties of the TII ammo but the fact that it stacks makes it ú$%"ú%ú%$ú%%"ú%"ú crap.
its like being webbed.
/signed /signed to make any changes to TII ammo as its pants.
Lol... flying deimos with any ammo is like beeing webbed. Problem with hail is vaga, i don't want to see them around flying with hail. Mega & tempest ballance is little problematic due to hail nerf, but speed nerf must be there, maybe remove tracking or cap recharge. --------------------- Looking for frentix? Mail me. |
Bhoki Tentor
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Posted - 2006.09.02 17:28:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Perhaps remove the velocity penalty and drop the damage from 60 to 55 to match the ratio between the other t1/t2 short range ammo's?
It still would be doing an immense ammount of explosive damage afterall.
>_< GAH, HAIL IS CORRECT, EMP ISN'T *head explodes*
EMP is balanced the way it is because it's the only short range, highest damage ammo to do 3 damage types...
So what is your logic in lowering Hail damage? It only has 2 damage types...
As I said it still does an immense ammount of explosive damage, probably the reason it has the velocity penalty in the first place, you want rid of the former there has to be a drawback somewhere.
You're obviously blind to the fact that the reason why EMP(!) is doing less damage is because it has em as highest damage type while explosive is racial primary damage type. There is absolutely no reason to lower hail damage whatsoever. That explosive is lowest resist on armor(and stays lowest with eanm tank) is not a reason to lower hail damage. That is an issue with how armor tanking and shield tanking relate and a certain lack of ships that can focus on shield tanking(even ships that are intended for shield tanks are on occasion better off using their mids for more usefull things and not shield tank). Nerfing hail damage simply because of an unrelated issue is stupid. The velocity penalty, I don't understand the logic behind it but if it has to do with the explosive damage that in my eyes is silly. I rather think it was a reaction to the mobile Vagabond then. Which would tend to become overpowered currently if all that would change on hail would be the velocity penalty getting dropped. I would rather propose adding a falloff penalty to hail and dropping the velocity penalty. I also think -30% falloff would be a good starting point, considering void has an additional 30% penalty on optimal(-50% - 30%(0.5 * 0.7) = -65%).
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.09.03 00:32:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Bhoki Tentor
You're obviously blind to the fact that the reason why EMP(!) is doing less damage is because it has em as highest damage type while explosive is racial primary damage type.
WTB 12 point Fusion S.
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Sebastato
Amarr The Galactic Empire Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.03 14:53:00 -
[90]
Signed, change Hail ammo. Atm its totally unbalanced and useless. Conflagration crystals only have tracking penalty, has Hail has 3 really hard penalties: velocity, tracking and cap recharge, making any Minmatar ship a sitting duck. Removing the velocity penalty would make the Vagabond even more uber than it already is. Removing the cap penalty would at least make it possible to tank on without cap boosters or to use MWD. Eve Navigation Router
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