Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3851
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 22:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
Laurence, you have to understand that it's a system that just doesn't make sense to the majority of people in New Eden. Quite often the Federation seems to make progress DESPITE it's political system of choice. Often progress is made and then thrown away in the next breath.
Thankfully things do seem to be moving in the right direction, vis a vis our two nations, now - but there is always the fear in the back of any sensible Caldari mind that it could all be thrown away in a feverish night of politicking. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Laurentis Thiesant
Institute of Social Development
131
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 22:30:00 -
[32] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Laurence, you have to understand that it's a system that just doesn't make sense to the majority of people in New Eden. Quite often the Federation seems to make progress DESPITE it's political system of choice. Often progress is made and then thrown away in the next breath.
Thankfully things do seem to be moving in the right direction, vis a vis our two nations, now - but there is always the fear in the back of any sensible Caldari mind that it could all be thrown away in a feverish night of politicking.
That fear is just as present these days when it comes to the Caldari body politic. The occasional outburst of extremism does not mind which government structure you favor. One ritual killing and the entire Amarr Empire could attempt to reclaim us all, Minmatar, Federate, and Caldari alike.
We had the U-Nats, who are now an almost irrelevancy - more recently you had the CPD who are slowly fading. Both were trouble that we, the 'good folk', should attempt not to emulate or bring back. |
Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
247
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 22:32:00 -
[33] - Quote
Laurentis Thiesant wrote:That was a damn fine treatise for someone who, as far as I'm aware, isn't one of the few who leads this 'dictatorship of the few who are apparently simultaneously the masses' that has come in to power. I appreciate the depth, and it is funnily enough much more respectful to debate and relatively relevant to the subject then the barbs that we got from a Clan Chief of the Sebiestor Tribe. Respect goes two ways. Apparently we're allowed to call the system that has built the most tolerant, most diverse, most economically strong nation 'nonsense' fueled by drug addicts but accept wholeheartedly that a chosen few can determine the lives of millions (after a few months of operation under unusual circumstances). I've never accepted that in the Empire, and I'm sorry to say I still have my concerns about it in the Matari nation as well. Oligarchy is just not for me I'm afraid - and if others find that democracy is not for them, and are able to wield that fact like a spike in this thread, then I should be able to defend it comparatively.
I came here to talk about how we can work as a Federation towards making sure that our success story can continue, that our Union's institutions which have carried it with stability can continue to be the guiding light of the intentions and goals of the Gallente. So perhaps we've gotten far from that - but in a way, we're on topic. At the end of the day, the Federation's electorate, whoever they may be, have made the right choice a large majority of the time - they've done so with respect for the system and with a keen sense of interest in the integrity of our Federated Union. I don't care who they are or where they come from, but agency and individual sovereignty means to me that they must be part of the process under normal operating procedures so that we may truly be a multicultural, multiracial community.
Laurentis, attacking a group of people for the actions of a one is never productive. As for your colorful interpretation, it is wrong. Perhaps you would be better served by doing your own research into the nature of Tribes as I am both tiring of explaining and obviously failing at.
If you want me to apologize for the actions of another, I will not.
As to your OP topic I already gave my opinion, that untangling Placid and Black Rise enough to determine who can vote will prove either an insurmountable task or a sham job. Things are just too mercurial for any other options. -áFear The Tribes |
Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
248
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 22:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
Laurentis Thiesant wrote:One ritual killing and the entire Amarr Empire could attempt to reclaim us all, Minmatar, Federate, and Caldari alike.
Agreed. My greatest hope is the new president take a much more hardline stance against the Empire, a greater peaceful mindset against the Caldari, more harshness against pirate groups and an increased relationship with the Republic.
The Amarrians are the true enemies and anyone willing to assist me against the likes of Nauplius, even other Amarrians ...especially even. Are welcome. -áFear The Tribes |
Kyllsa Siikanen
Gradient
301
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 00:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Karin Midular was elected leader of the republic. She did her job with dignity and grace, but in the end, corruption destroyed her Government.... democratically elected government.
She was chief of my Tribe by dint of her Mark, a job she did far more brilliantly... until the security forces of a democratic nation allowed her to be murdered by a nutcase.
Democracy. So good yo.
GÇ£Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.GÇ¥-á
GÇò C.S. Lewis-á |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
209
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 01:01:00 -
[36] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Our economy is growing faster than any before it. Your economy is attached at the waist to the wealthiest nation in the entire cluster. Kudos on taking advantage of that opportunity, but give some credit where it's due: the Federation creates a wealth of jobs for non-citizen Matari workers, is the main purchaser of Matari goods and products, and gives more aid to your nation than any other entity in the cluster.
To say that the Federation is solely responsible for the Republic's success would be foolish and disingenuous; to say it did not and does not continue to play a critical role in the economy of the Republic would be equally so. Yes, your people have ruggedly set out to make a future for themselves against great odds, but they did not do so alone.
Amusing exaggerations aside in regards to the slums, reports on extreme poverty in urban areas do not paint a pretty picture when compared to similar reports on the other empires. To try and paint the poor of your nation as happy and homely rural folk doing just fine for themselves on the fringes of society is not only statistically incorrect, but a serious injustice to the lower strata of Matari society in serious need of help.
Lack of educational achievement goes back to poverty. Returnees are treated very well in the Republic and provided with many great resources for building lives for themselves. The Republic's performance in that regard in nothing short of admirable. But those people in your society born into poverty do not get the same treatment. They do not have the same access to education or the same tools necessary for social advancement.
Republic crime statistics are again admirable, but your work isn't done yet. Ignoring the violent crime statistics that are significantly higher in the Republic than elsewhere (for reasons you yourself stated) it is estimated by various law enforcement agencies and crime research centers that more than ninety percent of all illicitly trafficked goods move through Republic space. In more recent times, the Republic has become a more popular safe haven for white collar criminals seeking to launder or hide illicit funds in shell corporations that the Republic government is either incapable or unwilling to devote the resources to cracking down on. Whether or not this is merely a symptom of the chaos of your government's recent rearranging or a longterm, systemic problem remains to be seen.
Ayallah wrote:As you are no doubt referring to Colelie in some vindictive means of using the unnecessary deaths of many of both your and my people, to lash out at a perceived insult perhaps it is best to at least say some words on it loathe as I am to. "Perceived" implies misinterpretation. I'm fairly certain I grasped the true intention of Ms. Siikanen's comment, thank you.
Ayallah wrote:Blah blah blah Colelie rationalizations blah blah blah A traitorous, murdering, kinslayer with a case of The Bad Feels is still a traitorous, murdering, kinslayer.
Ayallah wrote:Among the Matari silence is the answer to tragedy you would be hard pressed to find a Free Matari who does not bear some guilt or sense of loss for Colelie. To the contrary, you can barely throw a rock without hitting one.
Ayallah wrote:As you may remember, it was not just Gallente lives lost that day. Oh, I remember. Nothing warms you up on a cold night more than calling to mind the fact that hundreds of thousands of people who murdered their allies, allies that would have died fighting beside those very same people if called upon to do so, no longer exist except in the form of radioactive vapor.
But you're right, the focus should be on healing, and many in the Federation agree. Like some of my old Navy buddies who sent around a petition to get President Roden to reach out to Maleatu Shakor and invite the man over for an evening of bonding and festivity with him as the guest of honor.
As I recall, the specific event suggested by the petition was a barbecue.
I also take umbrage with your accusations against the Amarrians. In the entirety of the Federation-Empire relations, they have proven nothing but trustworthy and honorable in their dealings. Do they have some cultural issues that need working out? Sure. Is their alliance with the Caldari a friendship barrier? Kinda.
But in a world full of volatile foes and treacherous friends, it's nice to have an enemy you can trust. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3853
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 01:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:I also take umbrage with your accusations against the Amarrians. In the entirety of the Federation-Empire relations, they have proven nothing but trustworthy and honorable in their dealings. Do they have some cultural issues that need working out? Sure. Is their alliance with the Caldari a friendship barrier? Kinda.
But in a world full of volatile foes and treacherous friends, it's nice to have an enemy you can trust.
It's totally hilarious but we say much the same thing about the Matari. Nice bunch of people, admirable in many ways, if only they weren't friends with the Home-stealing warmongers in green. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
210
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 01:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
Hey now, to be fair, we've been working on that warmonger stuff. I mean, look at Colelie: eerily similar numerical loss of life to NR, but did we bomb the Matari homeworld until their ancestors got shellshock? No. Yay improvement! |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3854
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 01:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:Hey now, to be fair, we've been working on that warmonger stuff. I mean, look at Colelie: eerily similar numerical loss of life to NR, but did we bomb the Matari homeworld until their ancestors got shellshock? No. Yay improvement!
Damn. I laughed at that, there's goes my stone faced rep. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Kyllsa Siikanen
Gradient
301
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 01:22:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Who knows the consequences of evoking the name of the Ray of Matar after she has left this world to win an argument for a government system unwanted by Matari to the Chief of a Clan famous for its traditionalism and ruthlessness in defending it.
Thank you, Ayallah. GÇ£Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.GÇ¥-á
GÇò C.S. Lewis-á |
|
Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
251
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 03:23:00 -
[41] - Quote
I could again list many responses as to why you are wrong about the continuation about Gallentan financial support, how it is perceived both by me and the Republic as a whole, your cherry picking of examples to support your attacks, the unprompted nature of the attacks and a million other things.
However, you have made it very clear discourse is not your goal. Particularly in your seemingly unfaltering prejudice and boundless ignorance about my people enhanced only by the toxicity of your every interaction.
Let me put it in more simple terms: You are not my kin, I owe you no explanations nor will I be giving more, and I am glad that your government is democratic.
So that your voice can be drowned out in the trillions.
edit: to anyone else who has read this far, please do your own research. -áFear The Tribes |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
210
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 04:00:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:the unprompted nature of the attacks
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:Gallentean democracy is the idea that the impulse or uninformed opinion of the drug-swallowing individual is every bit as "right" and should have as much impact on policy as the informed, educated decisions of shamen, chiefs, and elders, arrived at via experience and evidence.
Silly nonsense, it is. Glad we've gotten past that. The Gallente have a very old proverb which I feel is quite suited to this occasion: Vous ne voulez pas, ne pas d+¬marrer.
The most popular modern translation of the saying is that of the Mannar musical artist Fiddy ISKy: "Don't want none, don't start none." |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
538
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 04:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
Who do I call to order a jump freighter full of popcorn? The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
251
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 04:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
No matter how many times you insist Byran, I continue to not be Elder Kyllsa -áFear The Tribes |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
210
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 04:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
I never said you were. I simply wished to establish where the chain of cross-cultural criticism began. |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
538
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 04:39:00 -
[46] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:I never said you were. I simply wished to establish where the chain of cross-cultural criticism began. Right here. The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
674
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 04:48:00 -
[47] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Bryen Verrisai wrote:I also take umbrage with your accusations against the Amarrians. In the entirety of the Federation-Empire relations, they have proven nothing but trustworthy and honorable in their dealings. Do they have some cultural issues that need working out? Sure. Is their alliance with the Caldari a friendship barrier? Kinda.
But in a world full of volatile foes and treacherous friends, it's nice to have an enemy you can trust. It's totally hilarious but we say much the same thing about the Matari. Nice bunch of people, admirable in many ways, if only they weren't friends with the Home-stealing warmongers in green.
In the interests of our newfound spirit of trade and maybe even peace, I'm sure we can arrange a swap. Bryen can have the slaver Empire if we get the Republic and their brilliant engineers in return.
If you want to know who started the "attacks", I'm pretty sure I fired the first shots in this thread so Bryen may want to get his threat detection software updated or maybe just admit to an unhealthy animosity towards his allies. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
|
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
210
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 05:02:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:If you want to know who started the "attacks", I'm pretty sure I fired the first shots in this thread so Bryen may want to get his threat detection software updated or maybe just admit to an unhealthy animosity towards his allies. You're Caldari. It's expected that you'll show up in any given thread featuring a Gallente subject and try to stir the pot. After a while one just tends to tune it out.
My apologies if you feel you've been slighted and denied recognition for your initial diatribe, it was not my intention. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3857
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 15:10:00 -
[49] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:Jinari Otsito wrote:If you want to know who started the "attacks", I'm pretty sure I fired the first shots in this thread so Bryen may want to get his threat detection software updated or maybe just admit to an unhealthy animosity towards his allies. You're Caldari. It's expected that you'll show up in any given thread featuring a Gallente subject and try to stir the pot. After a while one just tends to tune it out. My apologies if you feel you've been slighted and denied recognition for your initial diatribe, it was not my intention.
You're doing pretty well, so far, pal. You've managed to target the Caldari and Amarr - which for a certain type of Gallente patriot is sort of par for the course - whilst reserving your heaviest fire for your so-called Ally. You should consider a ringing denunciation of the pirate factions, followed by a scathing attack on the Khanid Kingdom. That would leave only the nullsec alliances!
Don't forget to tell those Mannar, Intaki and Jin-Mei EXACTLY what you think of 'em! "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Ollie Rundle
183
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 15:28:00 -
[50] - Quote
To return to the intent of the original posting (and in so doing try to nullify the sterling job of derailment begun in earnest by the irrepressible Ms. Siikanen):
Presuming this petition gains enough traction to push the Senate towards removing the offending legislature what are your thoughts for how they should determine citizenship (and thereby right to vote) within the contested systems of Placid, Msr. Thiesant? Will reinstating the right of Placid citizens to vote while your so-called 'Forever War' continues not potentially open the gate for an escalation of fear-mongering and conflict driven by political bodies and lobbyists with the most to lose? -á |
|
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
305
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:08:00 -
[51] - Quote
I'll also put forward my viewpoint on the original topic for this discussion. Every effort should be made to ensure the participation of all Federation citizens in future elections. Those of us fighting at the front do so for many reasons, but we are all united in support of the Federation and it's democratic values.
Thankfully the strategic situation is much changed from the early days of complete State occupation of Gallente border systems. United FDU aligned forces have reclaimed the vast majority of our territory and have maintained our stronghold systems longer than any other entities in the Warzone. This stability should encourage the relaxation of the type of fearmongering that led to tragic disenfranchisement in the past. |
Anslo
Scope Works
6003
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:21:00 -
[52] - Quote
Does someone wanna give me an executive summary of what everyone's getting upset about? Is this all about voting rights in an every changing warzone or?...
And no I can't be arsed to read through every ******* post in here because most of it is hot air and Grr Gallente Grr Caldari Grr every other ******* government you can think of.
|
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
542
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:32:00 -
[53] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Does someone wanna give me an executive summary of what everyone's getting upset about? Is this all about voting rights in an every changing warzone or?...
And no I can't be arsed to read through every ******* post in here because most of it is hot air and Grr Gallente Grr Caldari Grr every other ******* government you can think of. Summary: people said things, other people disagreed. Followed by "Grrr your politics" stuff and misrepresentations of political figures and events. And that brings us to the present moment..... The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Anslo
Scope Works
6003
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:34:00 -
[54] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Anslo wrote:Does someone wanna give me an executive summary of what everyone's getting upset about? Is this all about voting rights in an every changing warzone or?...
And no I can't be arsed to read through every ******* post in here because most of it is hot air and Grr Gallente Grr Caldari Grr every other ******* government you can think of. Summary: people said things, other people disagreed. Followed by "Grrr your politics" stuff and misrepresentations of political figures and events. And that brings us to the present moment.....
OK so it's basically more of the same then? Got it. Thanks Claudia! You're blunt as hell and I appreciate it!
|
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
542
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 16:52:00 -
[55] - Quote
Anytime.
o7 The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
305
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 17:14:00 -
[56] - Quote
Definitely more of the same. Not sure what motivates the derisive attitude towards Gallente Democracy in a discussion of Gallente internal affairs. I can understand and sympathize with those Minmatar (a clear majority, it's been established) who felt our style of free society wasn't for them and felt the First Republic was an imposition. Now that the Tribes have been returned to supremacy, what's the benefit of antagonism?
I say good on the Matari people. You are our brothers and sisters. We are proud to see you choose your own path, even when it parts from ours in the journey it can lead to the destination we both seek for ourselves.
Such words are in the end only words. True brotherhood is in shared sacrifice. One need only look to the battlefield reports from Huola to see that a great many Galllente still honor our commitment to Matari freedom. |
Anslo
Scope Works
6004
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 17:18:00 -
[57] - Quote
Minmatar are just good folk, plain and simple. At least here in Huola. By the way, Rin....get back here with everyone ASAP.
|
Vincent Pryce
Utopian Research I.E.L.
140
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 17:43:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ah, Democracy, the decayed illusion of freedom of choice. Opiate for the masses.
You would do well to remember that it is not who votes that counts. It's who counts the votes. Vincent Pryce Archangel of Asakai |
Rui-Shun Lui
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 18:34:00 -
[59] - Quote
If memory serves, millions of Placid inhabitants attempted to petition the Senate in YC 107 for equal access to the freedoms (read: rights) available elsewhere in the Federation. CONCORD's response was that there was no mandate for elevated involvement from member agencies in regional affairs, and that such enhancement of citizens' well-being would prove detrimental to commerce. Our government capitulated to their dictate.
To the honorable seigneur: If you feel in the current political climate, where moneyed interests are more deeply-entrenched than ever, that this is the right time to demand a reversal of that tack, I wish you all the luck the gods will grant.
I do not expect you to succeed. |
Kyllsa Siikanen
Gradient
302
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 22:26:00 -
[60] - Quote
Laurentis Thiesant wrote:Ayallah wrote:Laurentis Thiesant wrote: This 'silly nonsense' is the one that democratically elected the fantastic and much missed Karin Midular, yes? Alongside many other respectable republican democrats. She may not have been a Shakorite 'Sanmatar', but she was one damn fine leader in my books. Actually trusting your citizens and believing in their better character is worth something sometimes, you know.
It is considered very unkind to use the names of the dead to gain traction in an argument. In my past dealings with you, you have been reasonable so I am going to assume you are being reasonable now and any offense is unintentional despite the tone of your writing and the grave mistake in whom you are addressing, a Clan Chief of the Sebiestor Tribe . I will do my best to explain: That was a damn fine treatise for someone who, as far as I'm aware, isn't one of the few who leads this 'dictatorship of the few who are apparently simultaneously the masses' that has come in to power. I appreciate the depth, and it is funnily enough much more respectful to debate and relatively relevant to the subject then the barbs that we got from a Clan Chief of the Sebiestor Tribe. Respect goes two ways. Apparently we're allowed to call the system that has built the most tolerant, most diverse, most economically strong nation 'nonsense' fueled by drug addicts but accept wholeheartedly that a chosen few can determine the lives of millions (after a few months of operation under unusual circumstances).
Tell me again in one breath how you built the most tolerant nation in the cluster, and in the next invoke the name of my murdered Chief. Was it a mighty display of this "tolerance" which killed her, hmm? GÇ£Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.GÇ¥-á
GÇò C.S. Lewis-á |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |