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Andraea Sarstae
Circle of Steel Inc. Care Factor
9
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Posted - 2014.07.18 09:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
By now, I'm sure most of you have read The Mittani's latest post about super capitals: http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-nullsecs-high-bar
What do the various CSM members think of this?
What do you think of the idea of a cheap subcap ship that could play the submarine role vs. a super capital? |
Andraea Sarstae
Circle of Steel Inc. Care Factor
23
|
Posted - 2014.07.18 09:20:45 -
[2] - Quote
By now, I'm sure most of you have read The Mittani's latest post about super capitals: http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-nullsecs-high-bar
What do the various CSM members think of this?
What do you think of the idea of a cheap subcap ship that could play the submarine role vs. a super capital? |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
469
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 02:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Andraea Sarstae wrote: What do you think of the idea of a cheap subcap ship that could play the submarine role vs. a super capital?
While I am obviously not CSM, I do feel compelled to answer your question, just because of how it was worded. Personally, I don't feel that it even needs to be a cheap subcap. Something like a new (redesigned) type of T2 BC would be great for this, since all they are now are two slightly different flavors of booster ship per race. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
1168
|
Posted - 2014.07.19 02:06:21 -
[4] - Quote
Andraea Sarstae wrote: What do you think of the idea of a cheap subcap ship that could play the submarine role vs. a super capital?
While I am obviously not CSM, I do feel compelled to answer your question, just because of how it was worded. Personally, I don't feel that it even needs to be a cheap subcap. Something like a new (redesigned) type of T2 BC would be great for this, since all they are now are two slightly different flavors of booster ship per race. |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1464
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 07:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
So you basically want one of 2 things to happen.
1) this subcap is cheap enough no one bothers to use supers anymore because its suicide, at which point you may as well remove them, because a subcap thats a hard enough counter to a super CANNOT be balanced.
2) you want a subcap thats T2, meaing completely player controlled market, thats one and only specialty is killing multi-billion ISK ships. And you expect it to cost LESS than a super to be a hard counter to a super? Yeah no expect to pay 5-6 billion for it.
And those are literally the only two ways the scenario would play out. |
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1916
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 07:16:25 -
[6] - Quote
So you basically want one of 2 things to happen.
1) this subcap is cheap enough no one bothers to use supers anymore because its suicide, at which point you may as well remove them, because a subcap thats a hard enough counter to a super CANNOT be balanced.
2) you want a subcap thats T2, meaing completely player controlled market, thats one and only specialty is killing multi-billion ISK ships. And you expect it to cost LESS than a super to be a hard counter to a super? Yeah no expect to pay 5-6 billion for it.
And those are literally the only two ways the scenario would play out. |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
99
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Posted - 2014.07.20 08:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Titans were simply a mistake, which CCP have been trying to correct almost since the second one was used in a fight. There's no good way to balance them in combat with the ships that 99% of EVE pilots fly, as witnessed that they have had to be nerfed over and over again and yet they're still mandatory for 0.0 - and increasingly for lo-sec (for Titan bridging) They should either be removed, or else repurposed away from being directly combat-focused to some hypothetical other role like mobile outpost or I don't even know.
The solution I favour is that each Titan pilot gets 1 weeks notice via email and evemail that on downtime of the 8th day, all the capital components, modules, rigs and the contents of the various holds that constituted his Titan will appear in the hanger of wherever his medical clone is. Blueprints are deleted and reimbursed at NPC prices. Construction jobs are cancelled and reimbursed. We all wake up from the nightmare and get on with our lives.
Supercarriers should be repurposed to be the strategic mobility platform, literally carrying subcap Fleets (or at least Wings) for rapid deployments, and then themselves becoming a tactical objective. |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
195
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 08:38:38 -
[8] - Quote
Titans were simply a mistake, which CCP have been trying to correct almost since the second one was used in a fight. There's no good way to balance them in combat with the ships that 99% of EVE pilots fly, as witnessed that they have had to be nerfed over and over again and yet they're still mandatory for 0.0 - and increasingly for lo-sec (for Titan bridging) They should either be removed, or else repurposed away from being directly combat-focused to some hypothetical other role like mobile outpost or I don't even know.
The solution I favour is that each Titan pilot gets 1 weeks notice via email and evemail that on downtime of the 8th day, all the capital components, modules, rigs and the contents of the various holds that constituted his Titan will appear in the hanger of wherever his medical clone is. Blueprints are deleted and reimbursed at NPC prices. Construction jobs are cancelled and reimbursed. We all wake up from the nightmare and get on with our lives.
Supercarriers should be repurposed to be the strategic mobility platform, literally carrying subcap Fleets (or at least Wings) for rapid deployments, and then themselves becoming a tactical objective. |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1310
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 20:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Me, I'd like to see a 'paper' to the supers 'rock' that is not 'more rocks'
A subcap that can carry one big ass capkiller, for example. the ultimate glass cannon
death to supers will not happen if the supers are needed to cause the death
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Mike Azariah
The Scope Gallente Federation
3465
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 20:01:20 -
[10] - Quote
Me, I'd like to see a 'paper' to the supers 'rock' that is not 'more rocks'
A subcap that can carry one big ass capkiller, for example. the ultimate glass cannon
death to supers will not happen if the supers are needed to cause the death
m
Mike Azariah Gö¼GöÇGöÇGö¼n++ ¯|(pâä)/¯
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Freelancer117
so you want to be a Hero
218
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 22:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Delete all super capitals, it's was a bad idea and still is.
CCPgames have acquired more then enough isk/plex/stuff from banning accounts to compensate the losses for the super capital ship owners
The injection of new funds towards these entities that own(ed) the super capitals, will fuel a new war that will most likely be aired 23.5/7 on a(ny) news networks, imagine all that free advertisement !
Regards, a Freelancer Eve rule no.1: The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
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Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
472
|
Posted - 2014.07.20 22:51:04 -
[12] - Quote
Delete all super capitals, it's was a bad idea and still is.
CCPgames have acquired more then enough isk/plex/stuff from banning accounts to compensate the losses for the super capital ship owners
The injection of new funds towards these entities that own(ed) the super capitals, will fuel a new war that will most likely be aired 23.5/7 on a(ny) news networks, imagine all that free advertisement !
Regards, a Freelancer
Eve online is :
A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online
D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
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Mavros Pete
Symbolic.
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 09:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Too late to ban them, too many ppl got em.
Restricting them to null sec again doesn't change much,
1 idea for super carriers would be to halve their hit points and make em dock, kind of tier 2 carrier, till they come up with a true mother ship concept. As for Titans, they could be used as anchor-able structures, including npc null space, serving as station alternatives, with station like hit points and good defenses ( station mode old school DD :)
In a time-skill game like EVE, in the end everyone will get the skills for them and want to fly them, so its inevitable , unless u add to the building process some form of bottleneck that will act as restriction to the population of supers. Doubt it will help though, as its already too late.
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Mavros Pete
Symbolic.
9
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Posted - 2014.07.21 09:41:51 -
[14] - Quote
Too late to ban them, too many ppl got em.
Restricting them to null sec again doesn't change much,
1 idea for super carriers would be to halve their hit points and make em dock, kind of tier 2 carrier, till they come up with a true mother ship concept. As for Titans, they could be used as anchor-able structures, including npc null space, serving as station alternatives, with station like hit points and good defenses ( station mode old school DD :)
In a time-skill game like EVE, in the end everyone will get the skills for them and want to fly them, so its inevitable , unless u add to the building process some form of bottleneck that will act as restriction to the population of supers. Doubt it will help though, as its already too late.
|
Andraea Sarstae
Circle of Steel Inc. Care Factor
9
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 09:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/capital-ship-balancing/
"If you want to deal with sub-capitals, you should bring your own sub-capitals or a carrier."
It seems that CCP has forgotten this, especially so with the latest buffs to fighters and fighter-bombers.
My problem with supers is that my small alliance has no effective way to counter them. Because we don't own them, we have no way to really defend our space if someone who does own a lot of them decides to take it from us.
Should owning multiple super capitals be a requirement to owning a few systems in a corner of New Eden?
I don't think it should. I think Eve is a much poorer game due to all of the consolidation of territory and the resulting non-aggression pacts between entities. A major design change resulting in the Balkanization of the power blocs would breathe life back into the game, and more importantly to CCP, into their subscriber numbers. This won't happen as long as sov warfare is decided by who owns the largest super blob.
Nor do I think they should be personal toys that people use to easily and conveniently destroy anything they drop on.
So, here's what I'd do: - Greatly reduce their ability to damage sov structures.
- Remove their ability to navigate from cyno to cyno faster than a cruiser can go gate to gate. They're huge, powerful ships, and they should take some commitment when used in battle.
- Create a sub-capital that is designed to counter them. Either it gets a damage bonus against supers, or disables the ewar immunity of supers, while being very vulnerable to smaller ships.
- Give them a monthly maintenance cost that is some significant portion of their value. If this isn't paid, then they are no longer able to target anything or launch fighters/bombers from their bays. This would encourage their use as alliance level assets, for large, important fleet battles, rather than be used as personal pwnmobiles.
Or, CCP could recognize that since they were never intended to be anywhere as numerous as they are today, that like The Mittani said in his article, they are ruining Eve, and remove them from the game.
I'd rather not see that happen, but clearly something needs to be done.
|
Andraea Sarstae
Circle of Steel Inc. Care Factor
23
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 09:47:22 -
[16] - Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/capital-ship-balancing/
"If you want to deal with sub-capitals, you should bring your own sub-capitals or a carrier."
It seems that CCP has forgotten this, especially so with the latest buffs to fighters and fighter-bombers.
My problem with supers is that my small alliance has no effective way to counter them. Because we don't own them, we have no way to really defend our space if someone who does own a lot of them decides to take it from us.
Should owning multiple super capitals be a requirement to owning a few systems in a corner of New Eden?
I don't think it should. I think Eve is a much poorer game due to all of the consolidation of territory and the resulting non-aggression pacts between entities. A major design change resulting in the Balkanization of the power blocs would breathe life back into the game, and more importantly to CCP, into their subscriber numbers. This won't happen as long as sov warfare is decided by who owns the largest super blob.
Nor do I think they should be personal toys that people use to easily and conveniently destroy anything they drop on.
So, here's what I'd do: - Greatly reduce their ability to damage sov structures.
- Remove their ability to navigate from cyno to cyno faster than a cruiser can go gate to gate. They're huge, powerful ships, and they should take some commitment when used in battle.
- Create a sub-capital that is designed to counter them. Either it gets a damage bonus against supers, or disables the ewar immunity of supers, while being very vulnerable to smaller ships.
- Give them a monthly maintenance cost that is some significant portion of their value. If this isn't paid, then they are no longer able to target anything or launch fighters/bombers from their bays. This would encourage their use as alliance level assets, for large, important fleet battles, rather than be used as personal pwnmobiles.
Or, CCP could recognize that since they were never intended to be anywhere as numerous as they are today, that like The Mittani said in his article, they are ruining Eve, and remove them from the game.
I'd rather not see that happen, but clearly something needs to be done.
|
Andraea Sarstae
Circle of Steel Inc. Care Factor
9
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 09:59:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mavros Pete wrote:Too late to ban them, too many ppl got em.
Now that I don't agree with. "Some people might be upset" is never a valid reason to not holistically rebalance the game so that it retains its long-term health and viability.
Sure, some people might quit, but I bet a lot more would return to an Eve where there are more, smaller groups with different ideologies, different player cultures, different ways of playing the game, creating a lot more conflict with consequences. Instead of a few hundred players that enjoy dropping a few supers on random dudes ratting, while they're perfectly safe because they've signed non-aggression pacts with the only enemy that can realistically hurt them.
How can anyone look at the state of nullsec and think that this is heading in a healthy direction for Eve or the future of CCP?
This isn't a problem to be solved next year, it needs to be dealt with now. Retaining an MMO player is roughly 6 times cheaper than trying to recruit a new one or get an old one back, so with every person that unsubscribes because nothing exciting is going on, CCP's revenues drop a little further each time.
Anyone who is against making some kind of major change to how all of this works is either rooting for Eve to wither on the vine, or enjoys their risk-free ganking so much that they can't/won't see past the end of their nose.
When you've got major players from the CFC and PL saying the same things, asking for things that run counter to their own selfish interests on the alliance/bloc level, that should be a big clue that this is a serious issue. |
Andraea Sarstae
Circle of Steel Inc. Care Factor
23
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 09:59:45 -
[18] - Quote
Mavros Pete wrote:Too late to ban them, too many ppl got em.
Now that I don't agree with. "Some people might be upset" is never a valid reason to not holistically rebalance the game so that it retains its long-term health and viability.
Sure, some people might quit, but I bet a lot more would return to an Eve where there are more, smaller groups with different ideologies, different player cultures, different ways of playing the game, creating a lot more conflict with consequences. Instead of a few hundred players that enjoy dropping a few supers on random dudes ratting, while they're perfectly safe because they've signed non-aggression pacts with the only enemy that can realistically hurt them.
How can anyone look at the state of nullsec and think that this is heading in a healthy direction for Eve or the future of CCP?
This isn't a problem to be solved next year, it needs to be dealt with now. Retaining an MMO player is roughly 6 times cheaper than trying to recruit a new one or get an old one back, so with every person that unsubscribes because nothing exciting is going on, CCP's revenues drop a little further each time.
Anyone who is against making some kind of major change to how all of this works is either rooting for Eve to wither on the vine, or enjoys their risk-free ganking so much that they can't/won't see past the end of their nose.
When you've got major players from the CFC and PL saying the same things, asking for things that run counter to their own selfish interests on the alliance/bloc level, that should be a big clue that this is a serious issue. |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
390
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 14:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mavros Pete wrote:Too late to ban them, too many ppl got em.
Most of them are not subbed right now. They only resub when there is a chance to dust off the space coffin. |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
598
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 14:21:48 -
[20] - Quote
Mavros Pete wrote:Too late to ban them, too many ppl got em.
Most of them are not subbed right now. They only resub when there is a chance to dust off the space coffin. |
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De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2610
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 15:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Mavros Pete wrote:Too late to ban them, too many ppl got em.
Most of them are not subbed right now. They only resub when there is a chance to dust off the space coffin. Or a reason to, which are coming further and further apart. MAMBA is recruiting. -áWhen other folks are whining about a lack of content, we go out and create it. The case of Shrodinger's Hotdropper |
De'Veldrin
Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies.
2976
|
Posted - 2014.07.22 15:30:06 -
[22] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Mavros Pete wrote:Too late to ban them, too many ppl got em.
Most of them are not subbed right now. They only resub when there is a chance to dust off the space coffin. Or a reason to, which are coming further and further apart.
De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
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knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
391
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 05:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
They'll happen again. They're still the nuclear deterrent in null politics. |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
598
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 05:25:17 -
[24] - Quote
They'll happen again. They're still the nuclear deterrent in null politics. |
Mavros Pete
Symbolic.
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 08:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Another idea is to introduce a penalty to fuel consumption and maybe a timer penalty, if they jump into another region, that way they wont be able to go back and forth with impunity. Say full tank of topes for regional jumps and 2-3 hours penalty to jump back to that region.
Cost and time constraints will force ppl to use em more strategically, after all that's what supers are, a strategic asset. And if you can deceive others in using their cap fleet in the wrong region, you gain the advantage.
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Mavros Pete
Symbolic.
9
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Posted - 2014.07.23 08:38:26 -
[26] - Quote
Another idea is to introduce a penalty to fuel consumption and maybe a timer penalty, if they jump into another region, that way they wont be able to go back and forth with impunity. Say full tank of topes for regional jumps and 2-3 hours penalty to jump back to that region.
Cost and time constraints will force ppl to use em more strategically, after all that's what supers are, a strategic asset. And if you can deceive others in using their cap fleet in the wrong region, you gain the advantage.
|
Andraea Sarstae
Circle of Steel Inc. Care Factor
9
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 22:56:00 -
[27] - Quote
I read something on a blog last night that I thought really summed up this issue well:
"Risk in Space... Risk with modified rules allowing unlimited troop movement and air drops so you don't have to worry about any real strategy or tactics and can attack anyone, anywhere, anytime." - From here: http://merchantmonarchy.blogspot.com/2014/07/meh.html |
Andraea Sarstae
Circle of Steel Inc. Care Factor
23
|
Posted - 2014.07.23 22:56:56 -
[28] - Quote
I read something on a blog last night that I thought really summed up this issue well:
"Risk in Space... Risk with modified rules allowing unlimited troop movement and air drops so you don't have to worry about any real strategy or tactics and can attack anyone, anywhere, anytime." - From here: http://merchantmonarchy.blogspot.com/2014/07/meh.html |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
126
|
Posted - 2014.07.27 09:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Mavros Pete wrote:Too late to ban them, too many ppl got em.
Most of them are not subbed right now. They only resub when there is a chance to dust off the space coffin.
in which case their tear-filled threats to unsub if their imbawagons are taken away can safely be ignored. |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
195
|
Posted - 2014.07.27 09:33:16 -
[30] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Mavros Pete wrote:Too late to ban them, too many ppl got em.
Most of them are not subbed right now. They only resub when there is a chance to dust off the space coffin.
in which case their tear-filled threats to unsub if their imbawagons are taken away can safely be ignored. |
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