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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Shao Tso
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Posted - 2006.07.02 04:56:00 -
[1]
I will start by saying I did use eve-search to try to find my answers, and I have cruised through the Player Guide to see if I could find it there. No luck, obviously.
So, I am curious if you can set a custom orbit range, since my optimum range for my weaponry is never exactly as listed, and I seem to get the impression setting the orbit about 500-1000m closer seems to keep my at optimum (or as close as I can get) for a longer time. Also, I set my default range, but I fail to see the point, I cannot use that, that I can tell. I still have to click the target, and select the orbit range I want, and if I click default, I just get the selections again. Is there a button press that will place you in your set 'default' orbit range, or is setting the default orbit serving no purpose?
Thank you for any insight,
Shao Tso
[center]
Give a man fire, and you keep him warm for a while; Set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life. [/cen |
Antonicus Sarumi
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Posted - 2006.07.02 06:42:00 -
[2]
Be cautious with using "orbit" too much, as it can lower your opportunity to hit a target for full damage due to the increased "transversal" between you and the moving target. However it gives your opponent the same problem.
If you right click on the "orbit" button in your overview while you have something targeted, I beleive you can set a default, which should be set to your optimum turret range.
If you want more info on transversal and turret tracking CCP produced a great guide to it here
Other than that, if you are using mid-long range combat try using the "keep at range" option instead.
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Nazhuret
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Posted - 2006.07.02 07:02:00 -
[3]
You can set the default orbit by right clicking on the orbit button in the overview. You'll need to select a target for the orbit button to appear. After that you no longer need to select the range, just click the orbit button and you'll orbit at the default range.
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Chinny RekOn
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Posted - 2006.07.02 08:17:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Chinny RekOn on 02/07/2006 08:20:45
Originally by: Antonicus Sarumi Be cautious with using "orbit" too much, as it can lower your opportunity to hit a target for full damage due to the increased "transversal" between you and the moving target. However it gives your opponent the same problem.
If you right click on the "orbit" button in your overview while you have something targeted, I beleive you can set a default, which should be set to your optimum turret range.
If you want more info on transversal and turret tracking CCP produced a great guide to it here
Other than that, if you are using mid-long range combat try using the "keep at range" option instead.
Orbit keeps transversal low, as the side of your ship always faces the opponent. It does make YOUR transversal high to them, however, so they have trouble hitting you.
Originally by: Pondor Stibbons
READ US A STORY NECKBONE!!!!
Jimmy Hill |
Shao Tso
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Posted - 2006.07.02 08:31:00 -
[5]
Thank you all very much. I forget that there are the buttons on the overview.
I do appreciate the information, and will work on bettering my attack proceedure.
Give a man fire, and you keep him warm for a while; Set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
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Dillon Arklight
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Posted - 2006.07.02 08:54:00 -
[6]
You can also set your "Warp to..." distance, which is something i didnt know you could do after playing for 2 years. When in space click on a planet(or other celstial object) on your overview panel right click on the warp button(the arrow) and select set warp distance(or whatever the option is, im doing this by memory).
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Shao Tso
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Posted - 2006.07.02 09:26:00 -
[7]
Wow, great tip Dillon. I just wish it would accept a value below 15,000m, then I would be a very happy nub.
Give a man fire, and you keep him warm for a while; Set a man on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
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Marine HK4861
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Posted - 2006.07.02 10:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Chinny RekOn
Orbit keeps transversal low, as the side of your ship always faces the opponent. It does make YOUR transversal high to them, however, so they have trouble hitting you.
Or it would do if turret weapons had limited fire arcs. This is one of those balance > reality decisions CCP made to the game. If you have a high transversal to them, then they will have a high transversal to you and vice sersa.
Why do you think missiles are so popular?
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Chinny RekOn
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Posted - 2006.07.02 10:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Marine HK4861
Originally by: Chinny RekOn
Orbit keeps transversal low, as the side of your ship always faces the opponent. It does make YOUR transversal high to them, however, so they have trouble hitting you.
Or it would do if turret weapons had limited fire arcs. This is one of those balance > reality decisions CCP made to the game. If you have a high transversal to them, then they will have a high transversal to you and vice sersa.
Why do you think missiles are so popular?
so why does my transversal vel show as fairly low when i am orbitting on overview? I'm not arguing, just a bit confused.... happy to accept if i'm wrong
Originally by: Pondor Stibbons
READ US A STORY NECKBONE!!!!
Jimmy Hill |
Marine HK4861
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Posted - 2006.07.02 11:13:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Chinny RekOn
so why does my transversal vel show as fairly low when i am orbitting on overview? I'm not arguing, just a bit confused.... happy to accept if i'm wrong
I think what I didn't make clear is that although transversal velocity is high, if you are orbiting them then your turrets don't need to rotate as fast to keep the target in your sights. The classic explanation of tracking is a bicycle going around a tank. If you replaced the bike with a jeep with a mounted machine gun, then you get the idea - the jeep is going around the tank quickly (high transversal) but doesn't need to rotate its machine gun much to hit the tank. Meanwhile the tank's main cannon has to rotate like hell trying to keep with the jeep (I'm ignoring the co-axial 7.62mm machine gun for this example ).
However EVE follows a simpler model than this - all ships are a big lump with turrets in the centre. Turrets compare the transversal velocity to the tracking speed - if the transversal is lower than the tracking speed, you score a hit (ignoring siganture resolution of the weapon).
You and your target will always have the same transversal - if you find you have a lower transversal by orbiting, then that means you and your target happen to be travelling in the same direction at that point in time.
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Skatton
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Posted - 2006.07.02 13:24:00 -
[11]
Then what is the benifit of orbiting...because what you are saying is blowing what I thought right out of the water?
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.07.02 13:26:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Skatton Then what is the benifit of orbiting...because what you are saying is blowing what I thought right out of the water?
If you have more tracking than your enemy, you can orbit to take advantage of that fact.
If you have less tracking, you don't want to orbit.
Simple as that.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
Antonicus Sarumi
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Posted - 2006.07.02 17:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Skatton Then what is the benifit of orbiting...because what you are saying is blowing what I thought right out of the water?
If you have more tracking than your enemy, you can orbit to take advantage of that fact.
If you have less tracking, you don't want to orbit.
Simple as that.
So thats why occasionally during combat, damage and accuracy are far greater when not orbiting than when doing so. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Sicariidae
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Posted - 2006.07.02 19:23:00 -
[14]
I dont know much about it since, i use missiles but...
the idea that whome ever your orbiting has to make use of its turrets ablity to track if your doing circle around him, where as your guns barely have to move at all as your target remains perpendicular to your ship width/length if they arent moving. seems perfectly logical.
What Shikara says, basicly disregaurds that stable peice of logic, so I guess the game was "just made that way" if he's certain its true.. Thats really too bad, wonder why they decided to do that.
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F'nog
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Posted - 2006.07.03 03:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Sicariidae Thats really too bad, wonder why they decided to do that.
Balance.
It would be impossible to kill a frig with guns if they stay out of web range. The frigs would just orbit a BS outside range with an MWD on, immune to damage while they pumelled it mercilessly.
Originally by: Panzer Goddess I podded wrangler, and all I got was this lousy forumban.
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.03 09:32:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 03/07/2006 09:33:19
Originally by: Shao Tso and I seem to get the impression setting the orbit about 500-1000m closer seems to keep my at optimum (or as close as I can get) for a longer time.
You are correct on this point I believe, I find that setting orbit distance 500m less than optimal range tends to hold the ship at the correct distance. ---------- Throwing ships away doing stupid things since April '06 |
Dinife
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Posted - 2006.09.14 20:38:00 -
[17]
I have a question about orbit. If you use keep at distance and you kill your target, you stop. but if you use orbit, you just head off into space. The location of the last known postion has not change. or the ship should stop, nothing to orbit.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2006.09.14 22:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dinife I have a question about orbit. If you use keep at distance and you kill your target, you stop. but if you use orbit, you just head off into space. The location of the last known postion has not change. or the ship should stop, nothing to orbit.
So what was the question? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Ricky Starwalker
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Posted - 2006.09.14 22:15:00 -
[19]
Quote:
so why does my transversal vel show as fairly low when i am orbitting on overview? I'm not arguing, just a bit confused.... happy to accept if i'm wrong
Er, how does one tell one's transversal velocity?
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Sandeep
Trojan industries
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Posted - 2006.09.14 23:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ricky Starwalker
Quote:
so why does my transversal vel show as fairly low when i am orbitting on overview? I'm not arguing, just a bit confused.... happy to accept if i'm wrong
Er, how does one tell one's transversal velocity?
It's one of the overview columns.
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Skawl
GeoTech
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Posted - 2006.09.14 23:48:00 -
[21]
Or it can be.. you have to configure the overview to show it...
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MaJPayne Killerz
Minmatar Shadow Of The Light
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Posted - 2006.09.15 16:42:00 -
[22]
Something I failed to see mentioned here is radial velocity. I have my overview set to show both. Basically the lower you can get your radial velocity to target the better chance you have of hitting and doing optimal damage. Some don't use it, but I find it to be good information if you are wondering why you are not doing any damage...
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Guaradar
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Posted - 2006.09.18 18:53:00 -
[23]
Originally by: MaJPayne Killerz Something I failed to see mentioned here is radial velocity. I have my overview set to show both. Basically the lower you can get your radial velocity to target the better chance you have of hitting and doing optimal damage. Some don't use it, but I find it to be good information if you are wondering why you are not doing any damage...
Exactly! Transversal velocity is really only used for missiles -- radial velocity is used for any turret-based weapon. Granted, the two are related, but let's take two (admittedly extreme) cases. In both cases you are stationary (for simplicity's sake).
Case 1) Enemy is orbitting you at a speed of 1000 m/s at a distance of 1000 m. Because he is orbiting (in a perfect circle), his transversal velocity is equivalent to his actual speed so his transversal velocity is 1000 m/s. His radial velocity (in radians/second, the same unit that turrets are rated in) would be 1 rad/s (velocity/radius to figure that one out).
Case 2) Enemy is orbitting you at a speed of 1000 m/s at a distance of 100 km. Again, his transversal velocity would be 1000 m/s, but in this case his radial velocity would be 0.01 rad/s.
To maximize your damage, you want to make sure that your radial velocity is less than the guns you are using, and if you are using missiles, you want your transversal velocity to be lower than the explosion velocity of the missiles. To minimize the damage you are taking you want those numbers to be as high as possible, so the best solution is to get as close as possible to the numbers of your equipment.
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Talino
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Posted - 2006.09.18 20:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Chinny RekOn Orbit keeps transversal low, as the side of your ship always faces the opponent. It does make YOUR transversal high to them, however, so they have trouble hitting you.
No. Your opponent sees the same transfersal that you do. Transfersal has nothing to do with which way your ship is facing. Transfersal is the speed the target is moving in transverse (side to side) from you, as opposed to radial which is how fast it is moving towards or away from you. Orbitting maximizes transferal.
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Talino
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Posted - 2006.09.18 20:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dinife I have a question about orbit. If you use keep at distance and you kill your target, you stop. but if you use orbit, you just head off into space. The location of the last known postion has not change. or the ship should stop, nothing to orbit.
Keep At Distance adjusts your ships speed. When the target is destroyed your ship stop its speed.
Oribitting does not change your ships speed, it changes your ships direction. When the target is destoryed your ship will stop turning and keep going in a strait line.
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Talino
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Posted - 2006.09.18 20:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Guaradar Case 2) Enemy is orbitting you at a speed of 1000 m/s at a distance of 100 km. Again, his transversal velocity would be 1000 m/s, but in this case his radial velocity would be 0.01 rad/s.
Actually it would be 0.1 rad/s or ~5.7 Deg/s. Basicly the math is sin(x) = transversal/distance, where x is the arc velocity, or as the above poster call the radial velocity. It is this inverse Sine calculation that you would compare with the tracking speed of your turrets. A tracking rate of 1.57 rad/s will tack a ship that orbits you (or you orbit them) once every 4 seconds. 0.785 allows for one orbit every 8 seconds and so on.
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Apoca Lypse
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Posted - 2006.09.19 03:47:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Apoca Lypse on 19/09/2006 03:50:44
Originally by: Guaradar
Originally by: MaJPayne Killerz Something I failed to see mentioned here is radial velocity. I have my overview set to show both. Basically the lower you can get your radial velocity to target the better chance you have of hitting and doing optimal damage. Some don't use it, but I find it to be good information if you are wondering why you are not doing any damage...
Exactly! Transversal velocity is really only used for missiles -- radial velocity is used for any turret-based weapon. Granted, the two are related, but let's take two (admittedly extreme) cases. In both cases you are stationary (for simplicity's sake).
Case 1) Enemy is orbitting you at a speed of 1000 m/s at a distance of 1000 m. Because he is orbiting (in a perfect circle), his transversal velocity is equivalent to his actual speed so his transversal velocity is 1000 m/s. His radial velocity (in radians/second, the same unit that turrets are rated in) would be 1 rad/s (velocity/radius to figure that one out).
Case 2) Enemy is orbitting you at a speed of 1000 m/s at a distance of 100 km. Again, his transversal velocity would be 1000 m/s, but in this case his radial velocity would be 0.01 rad/s.
To maximize your damage, you want to make sure that your radial velocity is less than the guns you are using, and if you are using missiles, you want your transversal velocity to be lower than the explosion velocity of the missiles. To minimize the damage you are taking you want those numbers to be as high as possible, so the best solution is to get as close as possible to the numbers of your equipment.
You totally messed this one up. Radial velocity is not what you're thinking, that's angular velocity.
Radial velocity is how fast the distance between you and him is changing. If he orbits you in a perfect circle the radial velocity is zero no matter how fast he's going. If you looked on your overview numbers, radial velocity is given in meter/second, not rad/sec. I don't think any weapons are taking into account radial velocity, except maybe missiles but even those take into account the total velocity of the ship, not just radial/transversal.
Anyway, some of your theory stays valid if you replace "radial" with "angular" everywhere. But transversal is not used for missles like you said, it's used for guns after it's converted into angular by taking into account the distance between the ships.
Unfortunately the game doesn't seem to let you display a ship's angular velocity though Maybe we should petition.
Useful link: http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g26.asp
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Guaradar
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Posted - 2006.09.19 12:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Talino
Originally by: Guaradar Case 2) Enemy is orbitting you at a speed of 1000 m/s at a distance of 100 km. Again, his transversal velocity would be 1000 m/s, but in this case his radial velocity would be 0.01 rad/s.
Actually it would be 0.1 rad/s or ~5.7 Deg/s. Basicly the math is sin(x) = transversal/distance, where x is the arc velocity, or as the above poster call the radial velocity. It is this inverse Sine calculation that you would compare with the tracking speed of your turrets. A tracking rate of 1.57 rad/s will tack a ship that orbits you (or you orbit them) once every 4 seconds. 0.785 allows for one orbit every 8 seconds and so on.
Barring my confusion of radial and angular velocity, it is .01 radians/s.
To calculate:
(V)m 1 revolution 2*Pi radians V ----- X ------------ X ------------ = - radians/second 1s 2*Pi*(R)m 1 revolution R
Taking the arcsine won't work because there's no right triangle involved -- the ship is moving in an arc. You would have to do something with derivatives to actually calculate the rad/s using arcsin.
In fact, the definition of a 1 radian is: "One radian is the angle subtended at the center of a circle by an arc of circumference that is equal in length to the radius of the circle." (Wikipedia)
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Simon Jax
Gallente Freelancing Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.19 23:17:00 -
[29]
Another thing to note on Orbiting. The faster your ship, the more difficult maintaining a close orbit ends up being. Ships have a certain agility (the ability to turn), and if you set a close orbit (say 500m) and can travel at 500m/s, one of two things happens.
1) Your actual orbit distance increases, so even though you set "Orbit" to 500m, you may be circling at 750m. or 2) Your speed drops to maintain the orbit such that you're traveling at 400m/s rather than your max of 500m/s.
Which of the two happens depends (I believe) on how the other ship is moving in relation to yours. If the other ship is (near) stationary, then the second occurs. If the ship is moving, especially if it is trying to counterorbit you, then the distance ends up increasing.
Now, with large orbits and/or slow ships this is no longer an issue as your turn rate will be more than sufficient. It's only an issue with fast ships that are up close and personal.
It sometimes takes a bit of futzing to set your Orbit such that you keep a particular target at optimal range. Don't ignore that tracking guide posted earlier as well, it's hella handy.
--Wherever you go, there you are. |
Dinife
Dinife Corp
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Posted - 2006.10.13 17:22:00 -
[30]
You have not answered my question. In keep distance i stop, in orbit you say i stop turning. Why would i just not stop alltogether? I Have in target to set any vector for speed and direction. Any thing X 0= 0. The target should have a 0 speed and direction. Or i should orbit the last known location of the target, because this would be the last input into the nav computer.
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