Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Arknos III
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 07:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
While the changes to mining barges in Kronos are quite well done in many regards, the overall balance between barges is not yet complete.
There are three categories in regards to barge attributes: 1) Yield 2) Tank 3) Cargo
Each barge has been designed to excel at one category. It should therefore be average and close to equal at the others. This is however not the case.
It is the case when comparing the Skiff/Mackinaw or the The Coveter/Retriever. When comparing Skiff/Hulk or Procurer/Retriever however, the balance leans to one side.
The Retriever has larger cargo and better yield than a Procurer for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories. The Skiff has larger cargo and better tank than the Hulk for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories.
The barges should be balanced so that when comparing a T1 barge to another T1 barge, they are both better at 1 category and the same at the other 2. Same thing for T2 barges, when comparing between other T2 barges.
NOTE: If this better belong in F&I, feel free to move it over. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2203
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 07:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Meh, I don't think balancing was done with exactly 1 property in mind. It was rather one property at excellent level, second at ok level and 3rd completely sucks. This way you have hulk with best yield, ok-ish cargo and tank of wet tissue and skiff with tank of BS, ok-ish cargo and worst yield among exhumers. Mack excels in cargo, yield < hulk and > skiff, tank > hulk and < skiff. Same goes for mining barges.
At least right now hulk is not the only answer. Eve Online Overview Wizard: Forum thread Homepage
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6239
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 08:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think they want the hulk to have more tank... ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
erg cz
Sliperer
88
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 08:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Arknos III wrote:
The Retriever has larger cargo and better yield than a Procurer for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories.
Wrong. Properly fitted Procurer has a little bit better yield than Retriever. CPU makes the difference. Procurer's CPU let you put mining drone rigs in all 3 slots. Retriever's CPU let you put only one cause you need 2 other for Medium processor overclocking unit I. Otherwise you can not put 3 mining upgrades on Retriever. And with only 2 upgrades EFT gives me less yield for 2 retriever's lasers, than the one of the Procurer.
|
Maekchu
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
28
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 08:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Retriever/Mackinaw - for solo mining Covetor/Hulk - for group mining Procurer/Skiff - when you need some tank on your mining ship.
The balance is fine, since they all excel at one particular role. If you'd "balace" the stats, the way you mentioned, then there would almost always only be one answer, and that would be the Hulk.
The balance is good now, nothing to fix here.
How come solo pvp'ers need to tell miners how to mine? It's not that hard people! |
Victor Andall
628
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 08:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Show us on the model Covetor where the Catalyst touched you. I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do? |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2204
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 08:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:How come solo pvp'ers need to tell miners how to mine? It's not that hard people!
Heheh, R1FTA iz getting soft, come gank our hulkz! Eve Online Overview Wizard: Forum thread Homepage
|
Yarda Black
Epidemic. Nulli Secunda
274
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 08:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Arknos III wrote:Each barge has been designed to excel at one category specifically. As such they should therefore be average and close to equal at the others.
Excelling at one category does not mean it should be average at others. Or close to the same attributes of another ship in its field. You can also say it should excel in one and should be really poor at the others. Or just one of the other attributes should be poor to compensate for elevated effectiveness in one.
I'm not claiming the balance and roles are fine now. I honestly don't know. The last time I undocked miningships in h-sec, I blew up my Orca. Something about safety settings? I think the word "therefor" leads to a statement I disagree with.
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1433
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 09:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Meh, I don't think balancing was done with exactly 1 property in mind. It was rather one property at excellent level, second at ok level and 3rd completely sucks. Problem is Hulk is slightly better at 1, and utterly sucks at the other two primary attributes. Personally I'd rather they gave enough slots, fittings and base EHP (Cruiser or BC level basically) to one of the Barges to fit it whichever way you want, and removed the other two barges (Or rather turned them into new ships since the art assets exist) That removes this terrible balancing act against each other and makes it all about player fittings. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2209
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 11:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
No, hulk is better at its primary attribute (yield) just as skiff is better at its primary attribute (tank) just as mack is better at its primary attribute (ore cargo). Secondary attributes are secondary because they are not what each hull is specialized in (for? English grammar iz hard, mmkey?)
Beside nobody says balance means everything is equal and there is always perfect rock-paper-scissors ratio. And apart from strict numbers and attributes if you mine with hulk when you have no boosts and dedicated hauler it's not hulk sucking at mining but you at choosing wrong tool for the job. Best yield/cycle goes out of the window when you spend more time warping between belt and station.
"You" is meant not personally to you Nevyn so don't take it as such :) Eve Online Overview Wizard: Forum thread Homepage
|
|
Jur Tissant
Unreal Darkness
89
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 12:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
It's more of a question of how each barge will be used. Hulks are meant for group mining ops or other instances in which you have a dedicated hauler and aren't in a ton of danger. To limit them to these scenarios, CCP gives them a tiny cargo hold. The Mack is meant for solo play and therefore has a respectable yield and large hold size. The Skiff is also geared towards solo play, hence the larger ore hold than the Hulk, but the tank means a tradeoff in yield vs the Retriever. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
992
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 13:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Arknos III wrote:
The Retriever has larger cargo and better yield than a Procurer for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories.
Wrong. Properly fitted Procurer has a little bit better yield than Retriever. CPU makes the difference. Procurer's CPU let you put mining drone rigs in all 3 slots. Retriever's CPU let you put only one cause you need 2 other for Medium processor overclocking unit I. Otherwise you can not put 3 mining upgrades on Retriever. And with only 2 upgrades EFT gives me less yield for 2 retriever's lasers, than the one of the Procurer.
yep the only downside of procurer is cargo hold.
so if your jet canning or loading directly into an orca Procurer > Retriever every time |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
155
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 13:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Maekchu wrote:Retriever/Mackinaw - for solo mining Covetor/Hulk - for group mining Procurer/Skiff - when you need some tank on your mining ship. This is where the OP went wrong. CCP didn't balance the barges based on particular properties, they balanced them on particular roles. The only thing I could see possibly tweaking is balancing out the drone bay size between the Retriever and the Covetor (i.e. make them both 50m^3 or both 25m^3). Otherwise, I think the balance is fine as-is, especially after the most recent changes. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
155
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 13:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:yep the only downside of procurer is cargo hold.
so if your jet canning or loading directly into an orca Procurer > Retriever every time A Retriever has a slight edge in yield on a Procurer when mining ice: drones don't play and the Retriever's third low mining upgrade bumps it ahead of the Procurer.
I think this is a very nice balance: one does better than the other depending on rocks or ice, but neither do as well as the Covetor. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
98
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 13:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
OP is thinking from a solo players perspective |
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
126
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 14:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Arknos III wrote:While the changes to mining barges in Kronos are quite well done in many regards, the overall balance between barges is not yet complete.
There are three categories in regards to barge attributes: 1) Yield 2) Tank 3) Cargo
Each barge has been designed to excel at one category specifically. As such they should therefore be average and close to equal at the others. This is however not always the case.
It is the case when comparing, say, the Skiff/Mackinaw or the The Coveter/Retriever. When comparing Skiff/Hulk or Procurer/Retriever however, the balance leans to one side.
The Retriever has larger cargo and better yield than a Procurer for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories. The Skiff has larger cargo and better tank than the Hulk for instance. Wins clearly at 2/3 categories.
The barges should be balanced so that when comparing a T1 barge to another T1 barge, they are both better at one category and the same at the other two. Same thing for T2 barges, when comparing between other T2 barges.
As such, I would make the following changes: - Remove a low slot from Retriever or add a low slot to Procurer - Increase Coveter ore bay to 12k m3 - Increase Hulk ore bay to 16k m3 - Slight buff to HP of Coveter/Hulk to match Retriever/Mack or slight nerf to HP of Retriever/Mack to match Coveter/Hulk.
NOTE: If this better belongs in F&I, feel free to move it over.
.
In actual fact the recent rebalance of the mining vessels is one of very few things CCP has done well in recent times. I do still feel that as the Procurer has a Battleship sized tank it should have a similar build cost/requirement and not be as cheap as it is. Virtual protection from attack should not be as cheap. But other than that they are all in a good place atm.
As regards your proposed changes: - Retriever is a weak enough ship in terms of defence now. Procurer is highly defended with a large EHP. So neither of your low slot suggestions are warranted. - Coveter is a fleet mining vessel so does not need a large ore bay. Would enable 'AFK' usage which is bad. - Same as above for your Hulk suggestion. - I don't think the HP of the Retriever, Mackinaw, or Hulk need to be nerfed or buffed. Admittedly the Retriever is weak in defence terms but the Procurer or Skiff can be deployed if stronger defences are required. The Mack & Hulk can be tanked fairly well. Coupled with other tactics they can both be flown successfully. See my past replies & OPs for more info on fittings and tactics.
|
Malcolm Lionel
The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing
25
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 17:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
The hulk needs more cargo to make it more usable, atleast enough to make it to where I can through the can out the airlock with max mining boosts. Currently in my book the skiff is the clear winner. It has enough to do just that and tank interceptors. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
157
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 17:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Malcolm Lionel wrote:The hulk needs more cargo to make it more usable, atleast enough to make it to where I can through the can out the airlock with max mining boosts. Currently in my book the skiff is the clear winner. It has enough to do just that and tank interceptors. If you have max mining boosts, that means you're likely in fleet with an Orca. It has a massive fleet hangar, cargo bay, and ore hold for a reason: dump your ore straight into the fleet hangar and you have no need for jetcans at all.
The Covetor/Hulk isn't meant to be used without support sufficient support. If you're worried about your jetcan respawn rate, you very likely don't have it and should be using something else. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
15500
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 17:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
The ONLY thing that needs to be done is to take some yield back away from the Procurer / Skiff.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Malcolm Shinhwa
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
2685
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 17:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
The only thing the barges need is an actual slot for the permit. If we're not supposed to shoot pods in hisec, why are they filled with meat? |
|
Felicity Love
2038
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 17:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
"Dear CCP... please rebalance the Hulk with a freighter sized cargo bay, 20 high slots that fit strip miners, and a tank like a Dread, mmmmmmkay ?
Oh, and put more blinky lights on it... and have it making chuffy 'nom, nom, nom' noises when the spinny things are grinding up rocks."
"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.-á-á ( Pick four, any four. They all smell. -á)
|
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2220
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 17:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Malcolm Lionel wrote:The hulk needs more cargo to make it more usable, atleast enough to make it to where I can through the can out the airlock with max mining boosts. Currently in my book the skiff is the clear winner. It has enough to do just that and tank interceptors.
Hmm... I don't know about yours but my hulk has 8.5k ore hold which is for sure enough to for 2 full cycles after which you can jettison and dump next cycles into a can. So I don't know why would you need more ore hold on hulk. Especially that it's meant as fleet mining ship and you should have dedicated hauler / storage in orca's hangar.
As for skiff tanking interceptors... 80-100k ehp is enough to tank little more than ceptors :) Eve Online Overview Wizard: Forum thread Homepage
|
Ra' zutao
The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing
5
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 20:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
The Balance is fair as it is,
Why would you want to balance it the suggested way? That would mean 5/6 Barges become obsolete because everyone would be gunning for a Hulk. At that point just make a Freaking Mining Barge Capital ship that has all the things...
People more educated on the nuances of EVE developed these the way they did for a reason, just because you want to Solo Mine in a Hulk and no have the Big Bad CODE pop you does not mean they need rebalancing. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6240
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 22:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ra' zutao wrote:That would mean 5/6 Barges become obsolete because everyone would be gunning for a Hulk. That sounds familiar, actually... ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
654
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 22:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
This was obvious on day one.
Hulk/ Covetor have no role bonus. Not crappy role bonus, no role bonus. In line with roles thinking, they should have gotten a role bonus for fleet boosters. |
Gorinia Sanford
Big n Large
65
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 22:47:00 -
[26] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:No, hulk is better at its primary attribute (yield) just as skiff is better at its primary attribute (tank) just as mack is better at its primary attribute (ore cargo). Secondary attributes are secondary because they are not what each hull is specialized in (for? English grammar iz hard, mmkey?)
Beside nobody says balance means everything is equal and there is always perfect rock-paper-scissors ratio. And apart from strict numbers and attributes if you mine with hulk when you have no boosts and dedicated hauler it's not hulk sucking at mining but you at choosing wrong tool for the job. Best yield/cycle goes out of the window when you spend more time warping between belt and station.
"You" is meant not personally to you Nevyn so don't take it as such :)
True enough, but there are times I'll swap out a Retriever/Mack for a Procurer/Skiff if there's been a gank in system. I'll deal with the increased trip time to keep myself alive and from losing ISK on a destroyed barge. :) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6240
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 22:49:00 -
[27] - Quote
Paying attention to what is happening... no way ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Gorinia Sanford
Big n Large
65
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 22:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
Malcolm Lionel wrote:The hulk needs more cargo to make it more usable, atleast enough to make it to where I can through the can out the airlock with max mining boosts. Currently in my book the skiff is the clear winner. It has enough to do just that and tank interceptors.
I've found, if you're doing jetcan mining and have max or near max skills (such as I do), staggering the strips goes a long way to making jetcanning more manageable.
|
Gorinia Sanford
Big n Large
65
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 23:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:The only thing the barges need is an actual slot for the permit.
*rolls eyes* |
Hal Morsh
404 Ship Not Found Violent Declaration
120
|
Posted - 2014.07.21 23:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:The only thing the barges need is an actual slot for the permit.
People like you are why ice belts are now filled with skiffs.
That and I think yields were changed. I enjoy a good session of mining. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |