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Jhaelee de'Auvrie
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
7
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Posted - 2014.07.22 16:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Factional Warfare GÇó Factional Warfare upgrades no longer give extra station slots and instead reduce NPC price on all industry activities by 10% per solar system upgrade level GÇó The damage and tracking of Factional Warfare Complex NPCs has been reduced significantly.
I do not know how many people caught this little bit snuck in between industry giant thread-naught breeding patch notes.
Who asked for this and (more so) who thought it was a good idea? Positive change to the plexes has been way to slow in happening. As of July 21st, you could run a plex one size over your ship solo with little problem (in a PvP ready fit). Why make it easier for bot/script running warpcorestabbed farming alts to continue to disrupt what is suppose to be a group and PvP focused activity?
If anything, we need to see a shift the other way. Make the plexes a group thing, like the incursions sites. Maybe with each size increase, add then next size of NPC without removing the smaller one(s). So a medium would have the spawn of the frigate, the destroyer, and the cruiser. This promotes greater numbers needed to run larger sites. Then, for offensive plexing, have the LP payout scale up as well. This kind of change would leave the Novice plexes alone, and easy for newer players (and farmers) to run. So be it.
Even without additional increases to the plexes, do not make them easier to run.
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Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
220
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Posted - 2014.07.22 17:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Plexes are far from being too easy to run.
It actually felt a little too hard to take out the rats on your own, even if you brought the right ship for the right plex.
And hey, maybe easier plexing might do the trick when it comes to #burnhuola2018. pew pew |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2395
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Posted - 2014.07.22 17:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
1. They had to change it along with the industry changes. 2. The damage and tracking of plex NPCs was already pretty low. This just makes it so the result of solo pvp is now 99% determined by the solo fight itself.
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Plato Forko
Forko Nanorobotics
79
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Posted - 2014.07.22 17:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jhaelee de'Auvrie wrote:I do not know how many people caught this little bit snuck in between industry giant thread-naught breeding patch notes.
I didn't notice but I'd like to thank whoever made the idea a priority at CCP!
Quote:Who asked for this and (more so) who thought it was a good idea?
I did and do (still think it's a good idea). It was difficult for FW pilots to engage in a solo fight in plexes because of the DPS from the NPCs.
Quote:Why make it easier for bot/script running warpcorestabbed farming alts to continue to disrupt what is suppose to be a group and PvP focused activity?
You know what, I don't see the evidence to suggest that the last changes did anything to make farming any harder. I still see farmers in the warzone, I still see the Amarr militia at T1 and the Minmatar militia flitting between T3 and T4 just like always. Botting farmers were on the whole reduced by the change that prevents cloaking near a beacon, not by the change to NPC behaviour. It's still possible to bot with the present NPC behaviour, all you need is a drone boat.
Quote:Even without additional increases to the plexes, do not make them easier to run.
here's my question: why should the game mechanics be responsible for deciding the course of the war? I mean come on, the Minmatar militia has on average 2000 characters more than the Amarr militia. Whether or not they're farmers is immaterial, if they're in the warzone doing the war then they will be affecting sov regardless of how much the mechanics are stacked in the defender's favour. My terribad blog where I QQ and rage about Amarr FW |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1321
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Posted - 2014.07.22 17:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
It sounds like a good change to me.
The problem with the current mechanic from the solo perspective is that you can almost never pvp in a higher class plex. So I might be in t1 frigate or faction frigate and be willing to fight a destroyer or af in a small (or even a cruiser in a medium) But now with the unkillable rat that does steady damage this is far less feasible. Hence we had well documented reduction in fw pvp after kronos but before huola kicked off.
There was a player who posted a request that the npcs not shoot unless you aggro them. I and a few others supported that idea. This might be a sort of compromise. But really its not as good as the solution where the rat doesn't aggro. Its not as good for pvp nor is it as good for preventing farming.
Remember the timer is not running if the rat is not killed so its not like this will increase ofarming much. But for those who like to pvp in plexes the rat dps sucks and this was doccumented by a reduction in pvp.
I don't think you should need a group to deal with the npcs in fw plexes. Low sec incursions are not my thing though. Others who like that sort of thing might feel differently.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
390
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Posted - 2014.07.22 18:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cearain wrote:There was a player who posted a request that the npcs not shoot unless you aggro them. I and a few others supported that idea. This might be a sort of compromise. But really its not as good as the solution where the rat doesn't aggro. Its not as good for pvp nor is it as good for preventing farming. Yanno, having the rat not aggro at all - or even just not aggro until you shoot it - could have an impact on drone boat using AFK / botting plexers as well.
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SmokinJs Arthie
Justified Chaos
60
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Posted - 2014.07.22 18:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
The only ones I think getting hit hardest on the plexing changes is light missile ships. The time between volleys takes entirely too long and allows the npc to regen lots of it's health. I know for myself I am able to plex in a novice and small with my nano comet. I fought ~8 people last night in a large and the npc's affect on the battle was almost nothing, still in my trusty nano comet. Then again later in the night I fought a 2v1 in a large while in a cruor, was able to kill one but the other got away. The npc's affect was still zero.
Another issue I can see with the constant spawns is for brawlers. When they are sitting 0 on the warp in and the npc respawns they usually have to burn after it to kill it, leaving the warp in wide open. This is for blasters and autocannons, I think rockets or railguns should be able to reach the target just fine. There has been multiple instances where I warp in and the wartarget is 8-10km from the warp in making it extremely easy to get out to kite range and blap away.
These are just some of my observations so far since the changes.
edit: Another ship type that got the short end of these changes is the maulus. They dont have a tank and barely do any dps. They utilize their damps as a tank to just whittle down their opponent, which is a problem when the npc can easily tank your damage almost indefinitely. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
789
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Posted - 2014.07.22 18:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
npc will never solve any issues.
CCP has now tried everything from lot of npc to practically none npc and all solutions have their own faults, npc has never been a problem and will never be a solution. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
351
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Posted - 2014.07.22 18:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
SmokinJs Arthie wrote: edit: Another ship type that got the short end of these changes is the maulus. They dont have a tank and barely do any dps. They utilize their damps as a tank to just whittle down their opponent, which is a problem when the npc can easily tank your damage almost indefinitely. Few can claim to love the Maulus as much as I. So, speaking as a Maulus perve, I mean lover, I will say that there is nothing wrong with this.
The Maulus is an ewar boat. That it could be used as a combat vessel in novice plexes of old was always something of an inadvertent design quirk. Now you need a ship with decent/good dps and not the poor dps which the Maulus was able to muster. It took forever anyway to kite and kill any pvp boat with a halfway decent tank. Nothing wrong with the increased tanks on the rats now here rectifying this plex design flaw.
P.S. If you see me lying drunk and crying incoherently outside my Captain's Quarters, you will know that my Mauluses have not only kicked me onto the couch, but out the door for my betrayal. Please do not tell them and make this possibility come true. I can't live without my honey buns. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, please give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
1801
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Posted - 2014.07.22 22:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Plato Forko wrote:
You know what, I don't see the evidence to suggest that the last changes did anything to make farming any harder. I still see farmers in the warzone, I still see the Amarr militia at T1 and the Minmatar militia flitting between T3 and T4 just like always. Botting farmers were on the whole reduced by the change that prevents cloaking near a beacon, not by the change to NPC behaviour. It's still possible to bot with the present NPC behaviour, all you need is a drone boat.
In the first week after Kronos Amarr militia flipped six systems - Arzad, Tararan, Asghed, Iesa, Sosan, and Vard. We then went for broke in Huola and it cost us. We conquered Rouzshar during the campaign but it was hardly a focus. The process is similar to Huola on a much smaller scale. Put up a POS in system for reshipping or use next door if available.
Offensive plexing may occur but it's statistically irrelevant. Amarr has quite a few systems in the 70s and 80s percentage wise - but no Amarr system has fallen to the Minmatar since Kronos rolled out. That's very telling after three weeks. Offensive plexing by farmers is no longer going to move systems in a timely manner. Sasawong type individuals will no longer have a huge impact on the warzone other then deplexing. Taking systems now is a team effort. As much as a side may deride the roleplayers or the guys yelling in militia to fleet up for plexing - you need some of those for your militia or you're going to be hurting in the long run.
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Arla Sarain
56
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Posted - 2014.07.23 08:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jhaelee de'Auvrie wrote:
Who asked for this and (more so) who thought it was a good idea
A lot of people asked for easier rats and a lot of people thought it was a good idea.
The rats are there to put pressure on farmers using fits that promote afk or scrolled client plexing. They're not there to interfere with those people who are there for a reason.
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Grenadier Greyback
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Could have atleast added a gap (even 10 seconds) in the perma-jam of ONE cruiser in L2 Missions https://i.imgur.com/xnZKiON.gif |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
392
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Grenadier Greyback wrote:Could have atleast added a gap (even 10 seconds) in the perma-jam of ONE cruiser in L2 Missions Welcome to FW Hard Mode, my friend.
Fit ECCM, learn which rats are the jamming ones, and blap those when they come up. It's annoying but works. |
Grenadier Greyback
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2014.07.23 10:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Grenadier Greyback wrote:Could have atleast added a gap (even 10 seconds) in the perma-jam of ONE cruiser in L2 Missions Welcome to FW Hard Mode, my friend. Fit ECCM, learn which rats are the jamming ones, and blap those when they come up. It's annoying but works.
Oh don't get me wrong, my drones chew them up and I don't have to sacrifice my fit for ECCM vs NPC's. It's just fecking annoying that ONE ship can perma-jam in a L2. I don't care much for missions anyway, only do them for the 1ish hour before I start work :P https://i.imgur.com/xnZKiON.gif |
erg cz
Sliperer
94
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Posted - 2014.07.23 11:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote: Now you need a ship with decent/good dps and not the poor dps which the Maulus was able to muster. It took forever anyway to kite and kill any pvp boat with a halfway decent tank.
I may be wrong, but if this fit: [Maulus, Solo PvP Maulus] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier I Reactor Control Unit I
Low Frequency Sensor Suppressor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Low Frequency Sensor Suppressor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Inverted Signal Field Projector I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hobgoblin II x1 Warrior II x4
is able to do 126 DPS at 9 km optimal, how Maulus can be that much weaker in damage output if even Incursus classical fit like this: [Incursus, Incursus: ScramKite] Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
1MN Afterburner II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
125mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Hobgoblin II x1
is able to produce nothing more then 133 DPS with less then 7 km optimal. 135 with Javelin, but your range is like 3 km then...
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Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
352
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Posted - 2014.07.23 15:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
erg cz wrote: I may be wrong, but if this fit: [Maulus, Solo PvP Maulus] Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier I Reactor Control Unit I
Low Frequency Sensor Suppressor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Low Frequency Sensor Suppressor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S 150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Inverted Signal Field Projector I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hobgoblin II x1 Warrior II x4
is able to do 126 DPS at 9 km optimal, how Maulus can be that much weaker in damage output if even Incursus classical fit like this: Yes if all one ever does is eft. Might work for some dumb rats but you will have to pvp (it's why you have the point fitted).
In order to long point kite you need some agility, to avoid being slingshotted and to maintain the long point kite advantage while you mwd. Something has to give way in the lows for a nanofiber. I suggest the reactor control unit. In which case do those 150mm still fit?
The long point and mwd means you won't be fighting at 9km (the damps won't save you at that distance, even if effective they won't leave much room for error). In which case your 9km optimal is not being used. Long point kiting is quite possible with the damps. Scram kiting not so much. So replace that 150mm navy antimatter with 125mm navy tungsten.
But whoops, mwd and a human opponent that moves can also present some tracking issues, especially with rails. So find somewhere in that fit for some tracking help. Again, eft damage per a fit doesn't factor in tracking difficulties with a moving and intelligent target.
Pretty soon your theoretical eft boat is no longer.
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, please give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals. |
RonPaul Rox
Justified Chaos
35
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Posted - 2014.07.23 16:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
i fully support the change. rat RNG respawn timers should not determine the result of a 1v1 pvp fight http://imgur.com/EGjYLSL
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Baron' Soontir Fel
Justified Chaos
226
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Posted - 2014.07.23 17:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Still want to be able to fly my LML Kestrel (88 dps), LML Condor, and Rocket Condor again. All around 85dps with level 5 skills and T2 launchers. CCP basically said it's too bad if you've went for missile skills and you want to fight in FW. Considering how FW should allow newer pilots to take novice plexes, it's very limiting to find out that you can't even take a novice frigate. |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate Repeat 0ffenders
314
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Posted - 2014.07.23 17:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:Still want to be able to fly my LML Kestrel (88 dps), LML Condor, and Rocket Condor again. All around 85dps with level 5 skills and T2 launchers. CCP basically said it's too bad if you've went for missile skills and you want to fight in FW. Considering how FW should allow newer pilots to take novice plexes, it's very limiting to find out that you can't even take a novice frigate.
I'm fine in novice plexes with a 90dps breacher. Smalls are a bit rough though, but doable. Mediums cannot be done. QCATS is recruiting:-á https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3896299 |
Baron' Soontir Fel
Justified Chaos
226
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Posted - 2014.07.23 18:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
I can do novice plexes in them. I'm talking about the new players who have 2 months of SP under their belt and don't have the time to put 10 days towards LML II's or something similar. These were the ships that I literally flew for 3 months while I trained BC5 before Odyssey hit. I don't want to see similar new pilots unable to follow the same skill path I did just because of NPC rats. |
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Deerin
Federal Navy Special Forces
264
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Posted - 2014.07.23 18:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rats did very little damage anyway. Not a big change. Nov's and smalls in breacher are no problem. Med's are not posible though. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
126
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Posted - 2014.07.24 00:41:00 -
[22] - Quote
It really is a bizarre, pointless change and gives the impression that FW balancing involves CCP brainstorming a bunch of random ideas, then pinning them to a dartboard to see which one get implemented
The problem is the absurd number of spawns turning plexing into a PVE grind. The damage has always been negligible.
The simple solution is to reduce the spawns to 2 for Novice, 3 for Small and 4 for Med/Large. Problem solved. |
Josclyn Verreuil
Justified Chaos
21
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Posted - 2014.07.24 02:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:It really is a bizarre, pointless change and gives the impression that FW balancing involves CCP brainstorming a bunch of random ideas, then pinning them to a dartboard to see which one get implemented
The problem is the absurd number of spawns turning plexing into a PVE grind. The damage has always been negligible.
The simple solution is to reduce the spawns to 2 for Novice, 3 for Small and 4 for Med/Large. Problem solved.
The damage is not negligible if you're flying a buffer fit ship. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
352
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Posted - 2014.07.24 22:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
Josclyn Verreuil wrote:Squatdog wrote:It really is a bizarre, pointless change and gives the impression that FW balancing involves CCP brainstorming a bunch of random ideas, then pinning them to a dartboard to see which one get implemented
The problem is the absurd number of spawns turning plexing into a PVE grind. The damage has always been negligible.
The simple solution is to reduce the spawns to 2 for Novice, 3 for Small and 4 for Med/Large. Problem solved. The damage is not negligible if you're flying a buffer fit ship. You mean an armor buffer fit ship CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, please give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2749
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Posted - 2014.07.24 23:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Josclyn Verreuil wrote:Squatdog wrote:It really is a bizarre, pointless change and gives the impression that FW balancing involves CCP brainstorming a bunch of random ideas, then pinning them to a dartboard to see which one get implemented
The problem is the absurd number of spawns turning plexing into a PVE grind. The damage has always been negligible.
The simple solution is to reduce the spawns to 2 for Novice, 3 for Small and 4 for Med/Large. Problem solved. The damage is not negligible if you're flying a buffer fit ship. i could shieldtank the rat in an armor buffer ship even before the changes. now they don't even hit. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Terhiss
Moira. Villore Accords
54
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Posted - 2014.07.24 23:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jhaelee de'Auvrie wrote: Make the plexes a group thing, like the incursions sites. Maybe with each size increase, add then next size of NPC without removing the smaller one(s). So a medium would have the spawn of the frigate, the destroyer, and the cruiser. This promotes greater numbers needed to run larger sites. Then, for offensive plexing, have the LP payout scale up as well. This kind of change would leave the Novice plexes alone, and easy for newer players (and farmers) to run. So be it.
Even without additional increases to the plexes, do not make them easier to run.
It currently takes 143 conquered sites to render a system vulnerable. Thats already a considerable time sink as it is. When toying with this balance you might result in needing a quantity of resources that arent as readily available in FW as in incursions or other activities. Plex Npcs dont only serve to deter botting alts, they also need to be tailored to a certain playerbase. |
Squatdog
State Protectorate Caldari State
126
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Posted - 2014.07.25 02:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Josclyn Verreuil wrote:Squatdog wrote:It really is a bizarre, pointless change and gives the impression that FW balancing involves CCP brainstorming a bunch of random ideas, then pinning them to a dartboard to see which one get implemented
The problem is the absurd number of spawns turning plexing into a PVE grind. The damage has always been negligible.
The simple solution is to reduce the spawns to 2 for Novice, 3 for Small and 4 for Med/Large. Problem solved. The damage is not negligible if you're flying a buffer fit ship.
My alt runs Smalls in an armour-tanked Hookbill.
The damage is negligible.
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Dan Carter Murray
532
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Posted - 2014.07.26 17:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
summer 2015 CCP are removing FW plexing completely and instead sov will be based on towers. this is according to CCP dev blog from CCP Gnomo
To cap a system 4 towers (novice, small, medium, and large) need to be defended which each have a 72 hour timer. novice towers have 25m armor small towers have 50m armor medium towers have 100m armor large towers have 200m armor all resists are 90%
Offensively/Defensively: Towers do not have a "shield". Towers start at 50% armor. Towers can be repped. If tower isn't destroyed then system % changes. (25% each size). Towers can only be anchored once per 72 hours. Towers cost 150k LP
summer 2015 is resub time \o/ http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order Repeat 0ffenders
1021
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Posted - 2014.07.26 18:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Occupancy by ninja dread blap? Not sure thats at all where FW should be heading.
Current system is far superior to that DCM brain fart.
EDIT : also, you cant post on the forum, unless your sub is active so... |
Arla Sarain
58
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Posted - 2014.07.26 18:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Occupancy by ninja dread blap? Not sure thats at all where FW should be heading.
With how things are going, Gall/Min will be renting lowsec systems for Caldari and amarr to plex in with no disturbances. |
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