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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
332
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Posted - 2014.07.22 23:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Why? Because it is undisputedly a fact that moving them to low was a mistake and that one of the only ways to make people work harder has been taken away.
What? The game is different to back when level 5's used to be around. Capitals aren't allowed in highsec for one, we have high dps/volley gank mobiles like ABCs these days and incursions have been introduced.
How? To agents who only assign missions to either 0.5 or lowsec systems. The aforementioned gank mobiles *should* have enough time to eat through any sub-cap tank, short of spider tanking battleships and as we see from ALODs all the time that's still not enough.
When? After Level 5's have been rebalanced to award most of their rewards in LP and only maybe 1.5x the raw ISK of a level 4. Also to make them of comparable difficulty to some sleeper sites, in other words PVE ships should face a credible risk of dying when going in solo.
And? Mission runners not prepared to run their level 5's in lowsec simply won't. They aren't now and they won't be after this change. Relying solely on getting level 5's issued to 0.5's will be a gamble thanks to that 4 hr cooldown timer.
I've played the game long enough to have heard all the arguments in favour of the current system but the evidence speaks for itself. This was a poor move and nothing changes the fact that PVE in a general way creates victims due to demanding tank and no need for EWAR. Until we get kill missions where you fight a single NPC that you need to scram/point and otherwise exercise EWAR mods on then we might as well take what we already have and retrofit it for a modern era. Much easier to modify existing code than it is to fully program in new stuff.
Although the kill mission does hold a great deal more promise. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2420
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Posted - 2014.07.22 23:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lol. No.
Hisec is easy mode isk already. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8082
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Posted - 2014.07.23 00:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
I counter with the suggestion that L4s be moved to lowsec instead. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5753
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Posted - 2014.07.23 00:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Level 5s were never designed to be in high-sec. That was a glitch that CCP eventually corrected.
Also, your history is off. Capital ships were banned from high-sec not long after they were introduced. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
332
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Posted - 2014.07.23 00:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Lol. No.
Hisec is easy mode isk already.
One could claim ganking is too. Are you saying increased ease of ganking mission runners is bad? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
556
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Posted - 2014.07.23 00:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nope. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
234
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Posted - 2014.07.23 00:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Velicitia wrote:Lol. No.
Hisec is easy mode isk already. One could claim ganking is too. Are you saying increased ease of ganking mission runners is bad?
Is this your troll day ? Your afk cloaky thread will be imb4locked too, how extraordinarily unique. The L5 thread already exists too. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1436
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Posted - 2014.07.23 02:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I counter with the suggestion that L4s be moved to lowsec instead. I counter with the suggestion that concord be added to low sec.
Right, on a more serious note. No, level 5's don't need to be in High sec. A moderate income is already possible in high sec. And there is already fleet PvE in highsec in the form of Incursions (Which are not the Isk faucet people like to claim because of limited availability, contests & all the downtime that people never count) So moving Level 5's to High sec does not add to the range of activities that can be done, while it does reduce the number of activities low sec corps can do for 'unique' money making. |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
333
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Posted - 2014.07.23 02:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
I never suggested removing level 5 missions from low. Just add them back to high sec. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1436
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Posted - 2014.07.23 02:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:I never suggested removing level 5 missions from low. Just add them back to high sec. If the same activity can be done in multiple area's of space it will almost always be done in just one of them where it is more efficient. We can argue over what defines efficiency, but basically either High sec lvl 5's would have terrible rewards and no-one would bother because other things in highsec were better, or they would have good rewards and all the level 5 runners would leave lowsec because it would be better in high overall.
In theory there is a razors edge which would be perfectly balanced, but it's a peak razor edge, not a dip. So if it's not exactly on that razors edge, it will trend all the way to one extreme. And chances of hitting that exact razors edge are pretty much zero.
So it doesn't matter if you leave them in low sec, basically one of the two area's will end up having pointless level 5's. While at the moment they are a unique part of the Low Sec landscape, and they don't need to be touched since there is already fleet experience available in high sec. |
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
333
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Posted - 2014.07.23 04:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
People run level 5s? I know one guy that used to. I personally just use wormholes to move around and run exploration sites for a dizzying several hundred mil a day. I too can empty cite meaningless scenarios. Naturally is it better to run level 5s or level 4s in low seeing as you say level 5s are valuable and must therefore be hotly contested. Or are they incidentally run by pairs of multi boxed residents in their tz offpeak?
I said that missions should only spawnnin 0.5 or lower to represent some extra danger to the mission runner. They can choose to run it in 0.5 at the risk of being ganked and rather easily. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5690
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Posted - 2014.07.23 04:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
To make level 5's an attractive alternative to running 4's solo both the isk & LP rewards would have to be significantly increased if they were moved to highsec, otherwise people will just continue soloing 4's. To make up for that the ones remaining in lowsec would have to be increased to make lowsec 5's more attractive. There's nothing really inherently wrong with the suggestion, but the effects of this being implemented don't make it viable. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
333
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Posted - 2014.07.23 04:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
I would lower level 4s first. The payout on a level 4 is much much higher than level 3s iirc. Like between 2 and 3 times as high. Or even higjer. Seem to remember needing to do something like 100 level 3s just to earn enough to buy my first battleship at a time when the rokh was only 80 mil.
And change most of the payout to LP of course. If killing isk is the objective then more consumption is the answer. Your thoughts? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Omega Crendraven
Crow Homocide Squad Black Rise Police Department
164
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Posted - 2014.07.23 04:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Quote:Dear OP: Stay the f*ck out of our lvl5 hubs Sincerly The Pirates
" REMOVE RLML remove rlml you are worst light missile, you are the missile idiot you are the missile smell. return to rubicon. to our hml cousins you may come our fitting. you may live in the hangarGǪ.ahahahaha" CCP Rise |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5690
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Posted - 2014.07.23 04:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:I would lower level 4s first. The payout on a level 4 is much much higher than level 3s iirc. Like between 2 and 3 times as high. Or even higjer. Seem to remember needing to do something like 100 level 3s just to earn enough to buy my first battleship at a time when the rokh was only 80 mil.
And change most of the payout to LP of course. If killing isk is the objective then more consumption is the answer. Your thoughts?
As long as the rewards of all levels of missions end up scaling appropriately based on where they are so as not negatively affect other areas of space (namely lowsec which has long suffered in the past), I don't see any reason for people to be opposed to the idea. It gives people something further to work towards & encourages the act of friend making, something I'm an advocate of. It also provides new opportunities for gankers & people of other unsavory tastes. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal & proud member of the popular gay hookup site, somethingawful.com |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3345
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Posted - 2014.07.23 05:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Remove missions. Oh god. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8087
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Posted - 2014.07.23 05:59:00 -
[17] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:I never suggested removing level 5 missions from low. Just add them back to high sec.
No. It was a bug that they were ever there in the first place.
Is it that difficult to understand? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1374
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Posted - 2014.07.23 06:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
No. Move L4 to lowsec. The Tears Must Flow |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6255
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Posted - 2014.07.23 06:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:I never suggested removing level 5 missions from low. Just add them back to high sec. No. It was a bug that they were ever there in the first place. Is it that difficult to understand? Maybe they subscribe to the "that is just a cover story for nerfing highsec" mode of thought ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1436
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Posted - 2014.07.23 07:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: No. It was a bug that they were ever there in the first place.
Is it that difficult to understand?
Evidence it was a bug rather than by design and then changed later. Not that I'm disagreeing on balance, but you seem to be pushing this bug thing hard.
The main reason for level 5's to move back to high sec would be to encourage fleet combat rather than solo'ing, but as I said above, that already exists in the form of incursions. So there is no need for them to move to high sec. It doesn't fill any empty place, or add any game mechanics. And it takes away from Low Sec mechanics, so it's a bad idea. |
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Yarda Black
Epidemic. Nulli Secunda
288
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Posted - 2014.07.23 07:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
A large number of the lvl5's are old lvl4's. They moved the most difficult ones to low-sec only and named them lvl5
Although I dont believe in the "move all lvl4 missions to lowsec" argument and dismiss it as a ploy for nullsec cartels to gain more taxable citizens, I do believe the current set of lvl4's give an average player enough ISK to enjoy this game.
The way it is now, lvl5's provide an excellent income source for lowsec dwellers capable of running them. I think the added risk of getting dropped or otherwise interrupted should remain a part of running those lvl5's as it sets those missions apart from the others and allow for a different gaming-experience.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8091
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Posted - 2014.07.23 07:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: No. It was a bug that they were ever there in the first place.
Is it that difficult to understand?
Evidence it was a bug rather than by design and then changed later. Not that I'm disagreeing on balance, but you seem to be pushing this bug thing hard. The main reason for level 5's to move back to high sec would be to encourage fleet combat rather than solo'ing, but as I said above, that already exists in the form of incursions. So there is no need for them to move to high sec. It doesn't fill any empty place, or add any game mechanics. And it takes away from Low Sec mechanics, so it's a bad idea.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1334641 "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
334
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Posted - 2014.07.23 07:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: No. It was a bug that they were ever there in the first place.
Is it that difficult to understand?
Evidence it was a bug rather than by design and then changed later. Not that I'm disagreeing on balance, but you seem to be pushing this bug thing hard. The main reason for level 5's to move back to high sec would be to encourage fleet combat rather than solo'ing, but as I said above, that already exists in the form of incursions. So there is no need for them to move to high sec. It doesn't fill any empty place, or add any game mechanics. And it takes away from Low Sec mechanics, so it's a bad idea. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1334641
Just goes to show you nothing really ever changes. There are some good arguments in there to support level 5s staying in lowsec only and there a couple of salient points that gave them a reason to exist in high. YMMV I think level 5s belong in highsec as an empire activiry and introduce pirate stations to 0.1&0.2 systems that aren't in fw. The first step is clarifying what belongs where. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8091
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Posted - 2014.07.23 07:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:The first step is clarifying what belongs where.
They already did. About four years ago. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
334
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Posted - 2014.07.23 07:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:The first step is clarifying what belongs where. They already did. About four years ago.
Oh so a whole game rebalanced from the floor up isn't enough of hint for you?
The game has changed mate and it's time that the activities we do get some rebalancing as well. Not just missions but belt rats and sleepers and exploration sites and anomolies. All of it. End of the day CCP controls the isk flow. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8091
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Posted - 2014.07.23 08:02:00 -
[26] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:The first step is clarifying what belongs where. They already did. About four years ago. Oh so a whole game rebalanced from the floor up isn't enough of hint for you? The game has changed mate and it's time that the activities we do get some rebalancing as well. Not just missions but belt rats and sleepers and exploration sites and anomolies. All of it. End of the day CCP controls the isk flow.
PVE combat is the last thing they're going to waste their time on. There are more than a few things in line before that. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Dally Lama
Republic University Minmatar Republic
89
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Posted - 2014.07.23 08:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:The first step is clarifying what belongs where. They already did. About four years ago. It's called Features & Ideas. Solely meant for people to propose ideas and features that CCP have not implemented in such a state.
Your reasoning of "that's how it is", especially 4 years ago which was around Incarna, is quite a toxic way of thinking. New Fitting Window | Distances above 10km | Maximums for buy orders |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1436
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Posted - 2014.07.23 08:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Thanks. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8091
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Posted - 2014.07.23 08:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dally Lama wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:The first step is clarifying what belongs where. They already did. About four years ago. It's called Features & Ideas. Solely meant for people to propose ideas and features that CCP have not implemented in such a state. Your reasoning of "that's how it is", especially 4 years ago which was around Incarna, is quite a toxic way of thinking.
It's called "features and ideas", not "bring back a bug from half a decade ago".
There was a reason this was changed, you realize. They were never intended to be in highsec, not at the beginning, not four years ago, and not now. And certainly not because a few people are bored (shockingly) with shooting red crosses.
Try shooting other players if you don't want to be bored. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Tabyll Altol
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
5
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Posted - 2014.07.23 08:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I counter with the suggestion that L4s be moved to lowsec instead.
/sign |
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