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Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9
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Posted - 2014.08.04 11:41:00 -
[211] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Philpip wrote:Please define ' integrated into the Amarr Empire'. Being subdued, denied the basic rights to food, water, medical care etc when they do not bow to their masters is not integration, it is servitude. Then bowing down is wiser, isn't it? Disobedience accomplishes nothing but making things harder on yourself, whether you are a slave to a master, or a soldier to a commander, or an employee to a manager. Poor behavior gets punished. A lot more Matari would be free citizens of the Empire by now, instead of slaves, if so many other Minmatar had not been so stubborn and ruined it for the rest of us. That is what Ensign Tyrhanos refers to by integration: joining Amarr society as a free citizen. And even those who are not integrated to that degree do have a home and a purpose as servants; servitude is not a bad thing. Not to sound uppity 1st Lieutenant Kernher.....but that is of recent days Lieutenant Tyrhanos...... and it is with that mark of recognition I shall proudly continue to do the Lord's work.
And I share your sentiments. The historical precedents support your assertions. Most Ni-Kunni were free citizens of the Empire within one or two generations with only those criminals and dissidents remaining a slaves so that they might learn humility. |
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
112
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Posted - 2014.08.04 11:53:00 -
[212] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote: A lot more Matari would be free citizens of the Empire by now, instead of slaves, if so many other Minmatar had not been so stubborn and ruined it for the rest of us.
You should watch this sort of speak, if your elders hear of you suggesting the Matari can be free citizens, you may find yourself given the same 'freedom' in the shape of manacles and chains.
Only an Amarrian would believe their own propaganda, I suggest a break from the warzone and witness the 'freedom' you are providing to the wealthy and the servants you maintain in bondage.
The only free Matari citizens in Amarr are the freedom fighters freeing their brethren. We come for our people! |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
659
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Posted - 2014.08.04 12:13:00 -
[213] - Quote
My apologies for the mistake, Lieutenant Tyrhanos. I shall amend my previous post.
Jinari Otsito wrote:You realize none of the attacks, revolts and "stubborness" would happen if you weren't holding their people enslaved, right? They're being denied freedom because they're "stubborn" and they're being "stubborn" because you are holding them enslaved.
Just release them and be rid of the problem. The State stands ready with highly effective technology and industry solutions to replace your archaic and inefficient slave-fueled economy.
You force that "disobedience". Another hundred years is not going to change this fact.
We aren't their people anymore. We stopped being their people generations ago. The Minmatar were conquered; those of us in the Empire are Amarr now. It happens in the history of nations, not a single one of the four major powers can deny having conquered other peoples and integrated them into their society at some point. After a few generations those subjugated people come to consider their new nation to be their home, not their old one.
The Day of Darkness didn't happen yesterday. The Minmatar in the Empire are not the same people as the Minmatar in the Republic.
Philpip wrote:You should watch this sort of speak, if your elders hear of you suggesting the Matari can be free citizens, you may find yourself given the same 'freedom' in the shape of manacles and chains.
I already had my own manacles and chains. |
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
112
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 12:27:00 -
[214] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:My apologies for the mistake, Lieutenant Tyrhanos. I shall amend my previous post. Jinari Otsito wrote:You realize none of the attacks, revolts and "stubborness" would happen if you weren't holding their people enslaved, right? They're being denied freedom because they're "stubborn" and they're being "stubborn" because you are holding them enslaved.
Just release them and be rid of the problem. The State stands ready with highly effective technology and industry solutions to replace your archaic and inefficient slave-fueled economy.
You force that "disobedience". Another hundred years is not going to change this fact. We aren't their people anymore. We stopped being their people generations ago. The Minmatar were conquered; those of us in the Empire are Amarr now. It happens in the history of nations, not a single one of the four major powers can deny having conquered other peoples and integrated them into their society at some point. After a few generations those subjugated people come to consider their new nation to be their home, not their old one. The Day of Darkness didn't happen yesterday. The Minmatar in the Empire are not the same people as the Minmatar in the Republic. Philpip wrote:You should watch this sort of speak, if your elders hear of you suggesting the Matari can be free citizens, you may find yourself given the same 'freedom' in the shape of manacles and chains. I already had my own manacles and chains. You confuse the ancestors of early slaves with the poor souls still be taken today. The historic brainwashing clearly only works on the weaker minds, while you have clearly been broken to your masters will, not all bow so readily.
You say the Minmatar were conquered? I, and an entire warzone, beg to differ. Tides ebb and flow but at this time, your masters are in retreat, having failed to drive forwards.
You now wear different chains, and are still manipulated into doing the jobs that your masters lack the stomach for. I can see how this can be to their advantage, using your inherent warrior spirit to replace their spineless offspring on the field of battle.
We will continue to answer the call of those who wish to be freed, we come for our people.
We come for our people! |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
701
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 13:03:00 -
[215] - Quote
Yeah, they were "conquered". That's why there's a massive war on and unrest even within your own Empire. Clearly they're very Amarrian if they revolt and remain "stubborn" as you put it. They're not your people as long as they don't want to be.
You can't make anyone Caldari by force. It's a mindset. A culture. A way of life. Genetics. You can't make anyone Amarrian by force either. That's the reason you're embroiled in this utter mess and face countless attacks on a daily basis, from within and without.
Release the people who want out. They clearly aren't Amarrian by even your standards. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Philpip
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
112
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Posted - 2014.08.04 13:17:00 -
[216] - Quote
Jinari, I think you have misunderstood slightly, I do not fight for the Caldari, look properly at who I fly with, I am a senior member of Ushra'Khan.
'You can't make anyone Caldari by force. It's a mindset. A culture. A way of life. Genetics. You can't make anyone Amarrian by force either. That's the reason you're embroiled in this utter mess and face countless attacks on a daily basis, from within and without.'
This I do agree with. While on deployment with Dauntless Naval Academy, I saw with my own eyes the atrocities committed towards slaves and I made my stand and chose my path. We come for our people! |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
701
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 13:31:00 -
[217] - Quote
I was speaking to Sammie, referring to my own State. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Philpip
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
112
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Posted - 2014.08.04 13:39:00 -
[218] - Quote
Sorry, it was me that misunderstood. I thought the mention of Caldari was in reference to my heritage. We come for our people! |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3907
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 17:56:00 -
[219] - Quote
Philpip wrote:Jinari, I think you have misunderstood slightly, I do not fight for the Caldari, look properly at who I fly with, I am a senior member of Ushra'Khan.
'You can't make anyone Caldari by force. It's a mindset. A culture. A way of life. Genetics. You can't make anyone Amarrian by force either. That's the reason you're embroiled in this utter mess and face countless attacks on a daily basis, from within and without.'
This I do agree with. While on deployment with Dauntless Naval Academy, I saw with my own eyes the atrocities committed towards slaves and I made my stand and chose my path.
Whille I understand and sympathise with your stand against Slavery, I cannot condone your acceptance of your own kind as 'collateral damage' in the fight.
Cold Wind said that we were not to fight our own. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
701
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Posted - 2014.08.04 18:29:00 -
[220] - Quote
The question becomes when does collateral damage become acceptable damage? Sooner or later, it becomes the lesser evil. You take up arms against your own when you have to, because even greater evils will come to pass if you refrain from doing so. Cold Wind wouldn't be in favor of absolutes. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Philpip
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
112
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Posted - 2014.08.04 21:42:00 -
[221] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Philpip wrote:Jinari, I think you have misunderstood slightly, I do not fight for the Caldari, look properly at who I fly with, I am a senior member of Ushra'Khan.
'You can't make anyone Caldari by force. It's a mindset. A culture. A way of life. Genetics. You can't make anyone Amarrian by force either. That's the reason you're embroiled in this utter mess and face countless attacks on a daily basis, from within and without.'
This I do agree with. While on deployment with Dauntless Naval Academy, I saw with my own eyes the atrocities committed towards slaves and I made my stand and chose my path. Whille I understand and sympathise with your stand against Slavery, I cannot condone your acceptance of your own kind as 'collateral damage' in the fight. Cold Wind said that we were not to fight our own.
Everyone chooses a side, if they support slavery, then they have accepted the risk.
We utilise all intel available to minimise collateral damage but war is war.
We come for our people! |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3907
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 22:48:00 -
[222] - Quote
Philpip wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Philpip wrote:Jinari, I think you have misunderstood slightly, I do not fight for the Caldari, look properly at who I fly with, I am a senior member of Ushra'Khan.
'You can't make anyone Caldari by force. It's a mindset. A culture. A way of life. Genetics. You can't make anyone Amarrian by force either. That's the reason you're embroiled in this utter mess and face countless attacks on a daily basis, from within and without.'
This I do agree with. While on deployment with Dauntless Naval Academy, I saw with my own eyes the atrocities committed towards slaves and I made my stand and chose my path. Whille I understand and sympathise with your stand against Slavery, I cannot condone your acceptance of your own kind as 'collateral damage' in the fight. Cold Wind said that we were not to fight our own. Everyone chooses a side, if they support slavery, then they have accepted the risk. We utilise all intel available to minimise collateral damage but war is war.
Support Slavery? But the ones running the risk would be any Caldari who forsook their people to sign up with you. In any case, I see I was in error - Cold Wind only said that we should not fight other Caldari. You chose your path and the hill that you wish to die upon.
Alone. Forgotten by your ancestors. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
112
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 06:26:00 -
[223] - Quote
I do not do this for the adulation of the mass of faceless conglomerates, to think you are more than a blip on their balance sheet is delusional.
The smile on the face of 1 freed slave is all I need. We come for our people! |
Chronoxi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
47
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 06:46:00 -
[224] - Quote
Hypocrites, terrorists and heathens. With every slaves you 'free', at least one innocent dies (slaves or not). And this will continue on as long as you continue your terrorist operations. You'll never be able to stop the empire, all you are doing is contributing to the death toll. To think your actions are of any benefit to anyone, are delusional and hypocritical.
Since heathens are incapable of higher cerebral functions, I'll give a crude example.
Take 5 slave lives to 'free' 1 slave, and rescued slave being unable to actually find any sort of safe employment opportunities will then be sent in some remote frontier colonies and then abused and die. Damned 6 soul, and not accomplishing anything. 'Chronoxi' Joseph Vafhan |
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
112
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 08:07:00 -
[225] - Quote
Chronoxi wrote:Hypocrites, terrorists and heathens. With every slaves you 'free', at least one innocent dies (slaves or not). And this will continue on as long as you continue your terrorist operations. You'll never be able to stop the empire, all you are doing is contributing to the death toll. To think your actions are of any benefit to anyone, are delusional and hypocritical.
Since heathens are incapable of higher cerebral functions, I'll give a crude example.
Take 5 slave lives to 'free' 1 slave, and rescued slave being unable to actually find any sort of safe employment opportunities will then be sent in some remote frontier colonies and then abused and die. Damned 6 soul, and not accomplishing anything.
More diatribe to try to enforce your will onto your brainwashed masses. Do you also call your Navy terrorists for taking up arms to maintain your freedom?
No slaves were lost at our hands during the operation. As for your statement 'abused and die', that is their future in your hands. In ours they are relocated and offered education and employment. Note the word 'offered', no force is used.
I understand your panic as the employment many are choosing is to take up arms and join the casue. Everyday your citizens get lazier and more complacent and your generals on the battlefield are dwindling in numbers.
We come for our people! We come for our people! |
Chronoxi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
48
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 15:02:00 -
[226] - Quote
Quite the contrary, most slaves are not abused or die under our care. The holders have a duty to provide for and care for their slaves, and make them work hard for the empire of course. This result in the slave being healthy and not having to worry about anything at all. There are many former slaves in the wretched republic that joined their military (thus the sometimes impulsive and questionable decisions made), but what of those that went to the vile federation after hearing the empty promises of a better life? Mostly they won't be able to compete with immoral federal citizens in both academic pursue and employment opportunities, so they'll still be used for hard labor only this time they will be given an abysmal amount of material payment that is not enough to give them shelter, food, medicine or warm clothing. Slaves of the empire enjoy a good life, majority of them do.
It's ridiculous how you can say that no life, even that of a slave, is lost during your operation. Have you no sympathy for the innocent lives you claimed? That you are willing to make this statement to propagate your terrorist ideas disgust me.
As for the navy of our glorious empire, they are to not only protect our empire but also to enforce God's will. Our navy had not once undertaken any sort of terrorist acts, unlike some organizations within the republic...
'Chronoxi' Joseph Vafhan |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
3897
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 15:20:00 -
[227] - Quote
If the Caldari are ever going to contribute to bringing about the end of slavery in New Eden - setting aside for a second our justified ethical discomfort over uninvited meddling in the affairs of other nations - I prefer to think we'll do it our way.
We can prove with advanced economic theory and experience that widespread slavery is an inefficient and poor way to run an economy. We can demonstrate by example the benefits of a culture of meritocratic freedom. We have the wealth and political clout to go looking for alternative partnerships and deals. We can - indeed, do - invest in the Empire by way of corporate enclaves and Caldari stations where slavery does not exist, all of which have proven to be successful and profitable for their parent corporations.
We have all sorts of gentle, cold pressure we can apply. I sympathize with Ushra'Khan, but I've always felt that their "get angry and break stuff" strategy only serves to convince the Amarrians that they (the Amarrians) are doing the right thing.
The important part from our perspective should be that whatever change we are willing to effect shouldn't come at the expense of our own values, nor at the expense of making us hypocrites. We're not cultural crusaders. Slavery must end, but the Caldari can't be the ones to end it. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Chronoxi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
48
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Posted - 2014.08.05 15:34:00 -
[228] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:If the Caldari are ever going to contribute to bringing about the end of slavery in New Eden - setting aside for a second our justified ethical discomfort over uninvited meddling in the affairs of other nations - I prefer to think we'll do it our way.
We can prove with advanced economic theory and experience that widespread slavery is an inefficient and poor way to run an economy. We can demonstrate by example the benefits of a culture of meritocratic freedom. We have the wealth and political clout to go looking for alternative partnerships and deals. We can - indeed, do - invest in the Empire by way of corporate enclaves and Caldari stations where slavery does not exist, all of which have proven to be successful and profitable for their parent corporations.
We have all sorts of gentle, cold pressure we can apply. I sympathize with Ushra'Khan, but I've always felt that their "get angry and break stuff" strategy only serves to convince the Amarrians that they (the Amarrians) are doing the right thing.
The important part from our perspective should be that whatever change we are willing to effect shouldn't come at the expense of our own values, nor at the expense of making us hypocrites. We're not cultural crusaders. Slavery must end, but the Caldari can't be the ones to end it.
You do not understand what is the point of slavery. It is not for economic benefits or any such things, it is meant as a test and a path which a heathen can, hopefully, be embraced by God. Also, the economical state of our glorious empire is very stable and no amounts of station building in the empire will affect it. Do not speak as if you represent the entire Caldari people. 'Chronoxi' Joseph Vafhan |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
3898
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 15:45:00 -
[229] - Quote
I'm not speaking for all Caldari any more than you're speaking for all Amarr.
Besides, I can't argue the theology with you. Theology is by definition outside of the realms of rational motive and argument, hence why I omitted it.
I've encountered that fedo dung of an argument far too many times to even bother addressing it nowadays. If you're capable of believing that the infinitely wise creator of the universe is so stupid as to think that slavery of all things is the best way to win hearts, minds and faith then you have a much lower opinion of your maker's intellect than I would in your position, and are clearly unlikely to be persuaded away from that opinion. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
701
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 15:45:00 -
[230] - Quote
Oh he's got a good grasp of how we see things, I'd say. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Chronoxi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
48
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Posted - 2014.08.05 15:54:00 -
[231] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:I'm not speaking for all Caldari any more than you're speaking for all Amarr.
Besides, I can't argue the theology with you. Theology is by definition outside of the realms of rational motive and argument, hence why I omitted it.
I've encountered that fedo dung of an argument far too many times to even bother addressing it nowadays. If you're capable of believing that the infinitely wise creator of the universe is so stupid as to extol slavery of all things as the best way to win hearts, minds and faith then you have a much lower opinion of your maker's intellect than I would in your position, and are clearly unlikely to be persuaded away from that opinion.
Again, you do not understand what exactly is slavery. It is not to gain ANYTHING, though in the process of slavery there are some minor benefits, the sole purpose is to put a man through hardship. Though the more.. liberal nobility view slaves as a economical/political tool, they still put a slave through hardship and thus fulfilling their mission.
"Only through many hardships Is a man stripped to his very foundations And in such a state Devoid of distractions Is his soul free to soar And in this He is closest to God" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5
Faith is not outside of rational motive, in fact the only rational thing to do is to embrace the true faith. 'Chronoxi' Joseph Vafhan |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
3898
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 16:00:00 -
[232] - Quote
Yyyyeah, if you think that slavery is about bringing people closer to God, then I invite you to recall that time an entire ethnic group from among your slaves staged a successful rebellion and went on to found the foreign power that is most intractibly hostile towards the Empire.
Quoting masochistic scripture doesn't make for a convincing argument when your nation is presently at war with a living, vibrant and very angry demonstration of why conversion-through-hardship just plain doesn't work.
But, you have Faith. And like I said: Faith lies outside of rationality. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3911
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 16:11:00 -
[233] - Quote
You'll have to show me the math of that logic at some point, sir, I've stood in the Basilica itself and whilst it's a mighty impressive building, I have to say that it doesn't compare favourably with a simple mountain shrine in the Kaalakiota peaks.
It strikes me that spirituality is subjective. Highly subjective. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1208
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 09:56:00 -
[234] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Philpip wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Philpip wrote:Jinari, I think you have misunderstood slightly, I do not fight for the Caldari, look properly at who I fly with, I am a senior member of Ushra'Khan.
'You can't make anyone Caldari by force. It's a mindset. A culture. A way of life. Genetics. You can't make anyone Amarrian by force either. That's the reason you're embroiled in this utter mess and face countless attacks on a daily basis, from within and without.'
This I do agree with. While on deployment with Dauntless Naval Academy, I saw with my own eyes the atrocities committed towards slaves and I made my stand and chose my path. Whille I understand and sympathise with your stand against Slavery, I cannot condone your acceptance of your own kind as 'collateral damage' in the fight. Cold Wind said that we were not to fight our own. Everyone chooses a side, if they support slavery, then they have accepted the risk. We utilise all intel available to minimise collateral damage but war is war. Support Slavery? But the ones running the risk would be any Caldari who forsook their people to sign up with you. In any case, I see I was in error - Cold Wind only said that we should not fight other Caldari. You chose your path and the hill that you wish to die upon. Alone. Forgotten by your ancestors. You got me excited all over, Tuulinen-haan!! Now you are speaking like CALDARI |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3913
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:42:00 -
[235] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:You got me excited all over, Tuulinen-haan!! Now you are speaking like CALDARI
We ARE kin, you know, Kim-haani? We might have different ideas about some things, but I've never claimed you weren't Caldari in your heart. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
624
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:29:00 -
[236] - Quote
Is it just me or do Pieter and Stitcher look really similar now? I keep on confusing them when I scroll past the posts I am not reading. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3915
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:53:00 -
[237] - Quote
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:Is it just me or do Pieter and Stitcher look really similar now? I keep on confusing them when I scroll past the posts I am not reading.
Ironically enough, it's my old Suvee ID tattoo that should give the game away. Verin didn't get one - at least not one on his forehead. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
701
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:04:00 -
[238] - Quote
There will be no pestering of the bearded chins, ladies and gentlemen. We got them exactly where we want them, after a lot of pestering. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Quin Mansa
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:51:00 -
[239] - Quote
With this renewed threat of violence against our home worlds, I feel stirred within me a calling to set aside my ecumenical studies, to preserve the faithful against misguided aggression toward God's Chosen.
I am not a combat pilot, and I am not a Holder. I will carry no slaves within my small ships, and my command of battle may be meagre, but I am directing my executive officers to assemble, from those brave souls who have fully embraced God's grace, crews who are resolved to bulwark His children to their mortal end. Through His gift of artifice we will transform His light to shed Salvation upon the belligerents who imperil the faithful.
God preserve us in our task. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3915
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 21:11:00 -
[240] - Quote
Ms Mansa, if you want a suggestion, do not do this solo. Find a group - such as PIE - and work with them. Your chances of not scattering the atoms of your crews to the solar winds increases exponentially. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
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