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Claud Tiberius
58
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Posted - 2014.07.28 06:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lets assume that two T1BS, for the price of one NBS (Navy BS), can take down a PBS (Pirate BS). I think its a safe assumption.
So then if the progression of attributes in the ship levels is at a fixed rate, then logically (we assume EVE has set it this way), two or more NBS should be able to take down a MBS (Marauder BS), for the price of one PBS. Because the higher meta levels are better.
So the principle is (ISK value):
a) NBS == 2*T1BS. 2*T1BS > PBS.
Similar as: b) PBS == 2*NBS. 2*NBS > MBS
However I do not think that for the price of one PBS, you can get two NBS. For example, the Scorpion NI costs 539M ISK on average. The Machariel costs 657M ISK. You cannot sell the PBS for 2 NBS.
So this means the second part of the principle (part b) is wrong. What does that mean?
Well I think it only means one thing. Navy BS are not cost effective in PvP. And that disappoints me.
So what do you think? Agree with my cray cray analysis? Do you think NBS should be more cost effective (ie: decreasing their price)? Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end. |
ChromeStriker
0ne Percent. Odin's Call
744
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Posted - 2014.07.28 07:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
T1BS =/= NBS =/= MBS
Your problem is thinking isk is such a big factor...Price is a balancing factor but not as important as you think. A faction fit super 3bil pirate battleship can be easily killed by a T1 BS if the fit counters...
There are Navy battleship doctrines ....
No Worries |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
185
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Posted - 2014.07.28 08:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Before the pirate balancing, you could get almost 3 rattlers for the price of a mach.
Stop using ISK as an index of how good the ships are, by your logic a titan should be able to take down 140 Scorpion Navy Issues. Or 70 000 rifters. |
Claud Tiberius
58
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Posted - 2014.07.28 08:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:T1BS =/= NBS =/= MBS
Your problem is thinking isk is such a big factor...Price is a balancing factor but not as important as you think. A faction fit super 3bil pirate battleship can be easily killed by a T1 BS if the fit counters...
There are Navy battleship doctrines ....
I think you read it wrong: 2 * T1BS == PBS. "Two T1 battleships is equivalent to one pirate battleship".
Price certainly is a balancing factor. But I think I am judging the ISK value on Navy ships with fairly good accuracy - you could explain otherwise, if you disagree.
We shouldn't focus on the fits available. Because I like to think that all weapon types and all defence types are equally as good, based off the number of pros and cons within each of them. This is what CCP intends to bring to the game anyway.
In conjunction with the ships attributes, which are also assumed to also be balanced, the fits wont make a difference to this cost-benefit analysis. The only exception to the cost benefit rate, in each ship meta level, are the Navy Battle ships.
Note: we are only discussing BS for the moment.
Doctrines are irrelevant.
This is about: "Here have 100M ISK for each ship." "Fit the PBS, fit the NBS." "The NBS will lose the fight, even with the fit, assuming both players are fitted for this fight"
So instead of Buying/Fitting the NBS, you get another character, use two T1BS's and defeat the PBS for the same Fit and ship price in ISK. Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end. |
Claud Tiberius
58
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Posted - 2014.07.28 08:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:Before the pirate balancing, you could get almost 3 rattlers for the price of a mach. Why is that relevant?
Adrie Atticus wrote:Stop using ISK as an index of how good the ships are, by your logic a titan should be able to take down 140 Scorpion Navy Issues. Or 70 000 rifters. Why shouldn't I use ISK to value the ships? We use ISK to buy them ...
Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3394
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Posted - 2014.07.28 08:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Claud Tiberius wrote:Price certainly is a balancing factor. I've seen quite a large amount of ship rebalancing and I've read a lot of dev posts about it. It's a part of the game I take a personal, vested interest in. I've never seen a dev referencing price as a reason for buffing or nerfing a ship or class of ships. Price is not a balancing factor. Oh god. |
Claud Tiberius
58
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Posted - 2014.07.28 08:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Claud Tiberius wrote:Price certainly is a balancing factor. I've seen quite a large amount of ship rebalancing and I've read a lot of dev posts about it. It's a part of the game I take a personal, vested interest in. I've never seen a dev referencing price as a reason for buffing or nerfing a ship or class of ships. Price is not a balancing factor. So maybe you've never herd the Devs talk about balancing the price of ships.
That doesn't mean price isn't a factor. Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end. |
ChromeStriker
0ne Percent. Odin's Call
744
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Posted - 2014.07.28 08:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
So you think a brawler mach will beat 2 brawler Typhoons?
or a kiting Vindi will beat 2 kiting ravens??
You dont think there are some much larger balancing criteria than just price
Quote:Adrie Atticus wrote:Stop using ISK as an index of how good the ships are, by your logic a titan should be able to take down 140 Scorpion Navy Issues. Or 70 000 rifters. Why shouldn't I use ISK to value the ships? We use ISK to buy them ...
Yes isk is an idicator of value... not of combat effectivness.... people will spend millions of isk extra just for a 5% bonus over another module... that doesnt mean because it twice the price its twice as poweful
No Worries |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
51
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Posted - 2014.07.28 08:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Claud Tiberius wrote: However I do not think that for the price of one PBS, you can get two NBS. For example, the Scorpion NI costs 539M ISK on average. The Machariel costs 657M ISK. You cannot sell the PBS for 2 NBS.
are you talking about material prices or end prices? end prices are defined by the market, if people want to buy them at those prices they will be sold at that price point. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3394
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Posted - 2014.07.28 08:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Claud Tiberius wrote:So maybe you've never herd the Devs talk about balancing the price of ships.
That doesn't mean price isn't a factor. What does balancing the price of ships have to do with balancing the performance of those ships? Larger and more advanced ships incur greater mineral costs, as would be expected. This is logical and helps to create a more natural economy as well as aiding immersion. It doesn't mean they get nerfed when they become too cheap. They're cheap because they already suck. Oh god. |
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Pheusia
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
133
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Posted - 2014.07.28 09:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
How do I fly two T1 BS at once? |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
133
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Posted - 2014.07.28 09:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Claud Tiberius wrote:Price certainly is a balancing factor. I've seen quite a large amount of ship rebalancing and I've read a lot of dev posts about it. It's a part of the game I take a personal, vested interest in. I've never seen a dev referencing price as a reason for buffing or nerfing a ship or class of ships. Price is not a balancing factor.
It most certainly is.
Price can never be the only balancing factor, but it's absolutely a balancing factor.
And before you try an appeal to authority again, I spent a year talking to Fozzie & Rise directly about ship balancing.
- Malcanis |
Claud Tiberius
58
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Posted - 2014.07.28 09:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:So you think a brawler mach will beat 2 brawler Typhoons? or a kiting Vindi will beat 2 kiting ravens?? I said the pirate ships would lose vs 2 T1 ships, didn't I? (see post 1).
I think every part of the ship is part of the ship overall balancing. Including the cost.
ChromeStriker wrote:*snip* Yes isk is an idicator of value... not of combat effectivness.... people will spend millions of isk extra just for a 5% bonus over another module... that doesnt mean because it twice the price its twice as poweful But combat effectiveness increases value of the ship thus you would sell it at a higher ISK price. ISK is a competition. Thats why people are willing to spend millions of ISK to get that extra 5%. They want to get ahead.
This is moving away from the point I think.
The problem in my view is that navy ships are not as cost effective in regards to the other BS, because they cost more then they should. Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3394
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Posted - 2014.07.28 10:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Pheusia wrote:It most certainly is.
Price can never be the only balancing factor, but it's absolutely a balancing factor.
And before you try an appeal to authority again, I spent a year talking to Fozzie & Rise directly about ship balancing.
- Malcanis Are we talking about nerfing things when they become popular? Is this another one of those arguments where you absolutely insist you're right but all the evidence is protected by NDA and everyone should feel bad for not having access to privileged inside information, all hail the csm. Oh god. |
Claud Tiberius
58
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Posted - 2014.07.28 10:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Pheusia wrote:How do I fly two T1 BS at once? Obviously you can't
... you give the second ship to a member in your fleet (or someone who's going into the fight with you).
Riot Girl wrote:What does balancing the price of ships have to do with balancing the performance of those ships? Larger and more advanced ships incur greater mineral costs, as would be expected. This is logical and helps to create a more natural economy as well as aiding immersion. It doesn't mean they get nerfed when they become too cheap. They're cheap because they already suck. Balancing the price of ships is important because it is a cost. Everything has a cost, even ammo. If your enemy run out of ISK, they cannot use the better modules, the better ships, the better implants .... They are defeated.
Sara Tosa wrote:are you talking about material prices or end prices? end prices are defined by the market, if people want to buy them at those prices they will be sold at that price point. Well material prices are effected by the market as well. And that means its subject to supply and demand.
Guess I'm talking about material price then. Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end. |
Erehwon Rorschach
Justified Chaos
107
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Posted - 2014.07.28 10:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'm not sure if troll or genuine.
So my T2 frigate shouldn't be able to kill a faction BS because I paid 30mil and not 600mil?
Scaling based on ISK cost, what's to stop me stockpiling millions of lp and accumulating thousands of faction BS and then flooding the market with them at a massively reduced cost?
(Just as an example)
The price would plummet and what? CCP has to re balance the ships because I killed the price?
Because your mum just couldn't say no. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories Vertical.
675
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Posted - 2014.07.28 11:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Claud Tiberius wrote: However I do not think that for the price of one PBS, you can get two NBS. For example, the Scorpion NI costs 539M ISK on average. The Machariel costs 657M ISK. You cannot sell the PBS for 2 NBS.
Good job at comparing a hull used for PvE (high demand, every scrub can fly a navy scorp) with a hull used for PvP and L4 blitzing exclusively (that also takes a boatload of SP to fly properly).
Navy BS are roughly 400mil, Pirate BS are roughly 900mil, the current low for the mach is just the result of many missioners not getting exactly WHY the mach is currently the most superior L4-boat.
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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Claud Tiberius
58
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Posted - 2014.07.28 11:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Claud Tiberius wrote: However I do not think that for the price of one PBS, you can get two NBS. For example, the Scorpion NI costs 539M ISK on average. The Machariel costs 657M ISK. You cannot sell the PBS for 2 NBS.
Good job at comparing a hull used for PvE (high demand, every scrub can fly a navy scorp) with a hull used for PvP and L4 blitzing exclusively (that also takes a boatload of SP to fly properly). Navy BS are roughly 400mil, Pirate BS are roughly 900mil, the current low for the mach is just the result of many missioners not getting exactly WHY the mach is currently the most superior L4-boat. The Mach is just as good, even better for pve. And whos to say the SNI is just for pve? Why would you say that?
I'm sure there are just as many, probably more Caldari FW players getting SNIs, then those doing missions for the Mach. Caldari FW is a huge business.
Erehwon Rorschach wrote:I'm not sure if troll or genuine.
So my T2 frigate shouldn't be able to kill a faction BS because I paid 30mil and not 600mil?
Scaling based on ISK cost, what's to stop me stockpiling millions of lp and accumulating thousands of faction BS and then flooding the market with them at a massively reduced cost?
(Just as an example)
The price would plummet and what? CCP has to re balance the ships because I killed the price? Scaling based on the material cost (and work effort, since there is LP involved).
CCP don't care if players are throwing away their money. They don't reduce a ships attributes just because an idiot is giving them away for free. They know the player is still going to be buying the materials, gaining lp, etc. Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
206
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Posted - 2014.07.28 12:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
There is a great many things wrong with this thread. Here is a list of just a tiny fraction of those things (heck some of them might be wrong as well, whatever):
1) horrendously faulty assumptions. Why do we assume 2 t1BS = 1 NBS? What do you base this on? Does 1NBS have double the health of 1t1 BS? Damage? Anything? 2) Assuming that all t1 bs are equal, that all NBS are equal, heck assuming that a t1 and the NBS based on that hull even perform the same functions or can be flown the same way. Comparing apples to the latest issue of Time magazine. 3) completely ignoring the specific/general tasks the hulls are suited for. some hulls make amazing pvp boats, others are far better at pve. this effects demand and thus price. 3.1) not taking into account target markets. incurtion runners have the isk to pay for expensive hulls while pvpers need hulls cheaper. 4) not taking into account the source of these ships, cheap lp stores and easy access for navy hulls but rare drops or hard to access lp stores for pirate hulls. 5) doctrines greatly effect the price of hulls as supply and demand are constantly in flux as they adapt to doctrines 6) patch changes effecting ship prices while their raw cost stays exactly the same (compare most recently gila, rattler, sni, mach, etc.) 7) actual usefulness of a hull (demand) and other uses for the same lp (supply) nestor is an excellent example of this. its **** but one of the most expensive pirate BS currently afaik. 8) unconventional uses of a hull where whole roles are ignored or it is used not how it was intended. see incurtions, all pvp ever, all pve ever.
Basically this whole thread is a troll/farce. the amount of assumptions and conceding the op ask us to do to construct this fantasy scenario is a joke. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
690
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Posted - 2014.07.28 13:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
I understand what the OP was getting at, it's still wrong, but it isn't what the rest of you are assuming.
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Liam Inkuras
Top Belt Heroes
1220
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Posted - 2014.07.28 14:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
More cost does not equal a better ship. I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone |
Froggy Storm
Paragon Trust The Bastion
284
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Posted - 2014.07.28 19:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Case in point the SoE bs is a POS, ams last I checked it still costs a fortune. So price is inversely proportional to bs performance in the PBS line up (/sarcasm) |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
18
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Posted - 2014.07.28 21:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
Well I can easily say that I started to kill things a lot faster when I went from my Apoc to my Navy Apoc. |
Xequecal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
252
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Posted - 2014.07.28 21:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:Case in point the SoE bs is a POS, ams last I checked it still costs a fortune. So price is inversely proportional to bs performance in the PBS line up (/sarcasm)
The SoE battleship isn't bad, it's just too expensive. If it was the same price as a Rattlesnake it would see quite a bit of use. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12543
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Posted - 2014.07.29 08:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Claud Tiberius wrote: Why shouldn't I use ISK to value the ships? We use ISK to buy them ...
Because that would mean a Federate Issue Megathron would have the firepower and tank of several titan fleets. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
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