Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Fourteen Maken
VipeRs Pit
136
|
Posted - 2014.07.28 23:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
How sophisticated are these bots exactly? Are we talking client side hacks or just macro's? If they are basically dumb macro's then no need for captcha just a simple check box appearing in random parts of the screen requiring a click will trip most of them up, but if it's a client hack it might need something more elaborate. |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1318
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 04:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
Do 0.01 bots need to be banished? yes
Is this a good solution? sorry, no.
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 and now CSM9 |
Gavin Dax
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
66
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 05:30:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Do 0.01 bots need to be banished? yes
Is this a good solution? sorry, no.
m
How do you banish 0.01 bots then? And why is it not a good solution? It's used extensively in the real world, not to mention heavily in market/finance applications for the very reason that it's the best available solution to the bot problem. If bots are a problem (though I'm not sure how you would determine that without implementing a CAPTCHA and observing the market effects) then isn't this at the very least better than doing nothing?
Yes, it's an inconvenience. But it really is a minor one, not to mention that it can be made as little of an inconvenience as CCP wants it to be. Fourteen Maken suggested a checkbox that appears at a random location on screen - very simple but that could very well put an end to most if not all market bots (and at the very least provide some statistics on it).
Also just to clarify, CAPTCHA does not necessarily refer to a hard to read sequence of letter that's annoying and time consuming to identify. That's a very specific type of CAPTCHA... |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1990
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 05:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
Gavin Dax wrote:[
How do you banish 0.01 bots then? And why is it not a good solution? It's used extensively in the real world, not to mention heavily in market/finance applications for the very reason that it's the best available solution to the bot problem.
Market/Finance, like the Stock Market. Cause trading on those exchanges is like 99.9% bots.
CCP can defeat all market bots overnight by giving all players the tools they have. Then the smartest people win, not those that sit in station longer and click the most.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Gavin Dax
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
66
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 06:20:00 -
[35] - Quote
Sentamon wrote: Market/Finance, like the Stock Market. Cause trading on those exchanges is like 99.9% bots.
Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of it from the security perspective, not trading. Point is, whenever the goal is to prevent bots, you find CAPTCHAs. There really is no other way around it other than to just accept bots (and potentially do something to mitigate their usefulness/appeal).
Sentamon wrote: CCP can defeat all market bots overnight by giving all players the tools they have. Then the smartest people win, not those that sit in station longer and click the most.
Buy-sell spread will always exist and bots will always be the ones that win in that area (or those that click the most). Not great I know, best you can do is limit the profits that can be made like that... although I'm not sure how. |
Luwc
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
190
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 06:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
hahahahahha no. http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif |
Kale Freeman
Dirt 'n' Glitter I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
29
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 08:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Remove the special pricing when modifying an order. Turn "modify order" into a convenient short cut for "cancel order + create order" |
Elusive Panda
Gendry's Leech Nerfed Alliance Go Away
55
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 16:49:00 -
[38] - Quote
No, please no, please, stop.
Pretty sure CAPTCHA were invented by the devil itself. |
De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2678
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 16:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
Elusive Panda wrote:No, please no, please, stop.
Pretty sure CAPTCHA were invented by the devil itself.
The Devil Himself wrote: I had nothing to do with CAPTCHA. They are solely an invention of humans, who need no help from me at making their existence even more miserable than it already was.
MAMBA is recruiting. -áWhen other folks are whining about a lack of content, we go out and create it. The case of Shrodinger's Hotdropper |
Renegade Dussault
Stability Significantly Disrupted
42
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 17:07:00 -
[40] - Quote
this sums up my thoughts exactly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H07zYvkNYL8
warning: lower your sound ;)
yeah, it's a bad idea. |
|
Gavin Dax
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
66
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 17:43:00 -
[41] - Quote
"Spreadsheets online" but we don't want an added 5 seconds every 15 min or longer to potentially drastically fix a broken mechanic?
Can't spare 5 seconds for a CAPTCHA, need to camp that gate.
Warped off from station but forgot something? Congrats you just wasted about as much time as you spent doing captchas in Jita for the last 3 (or potentially way more) hours.
Anyway, this is just my take on it. Thanks for the responses guys. Certainly wasn't what I would have expected but maybe useful feedback for CCP |
De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2681
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 17:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
Gavin Dax wrote: Anyway, this is just my take on it. Thanks for the responses guys. Certainly wasn't what I would have expected but maybe useful feedback for CCP
I'm curious what you did expect when you suggested adding literally the most annoying feature of the Internet, bar none, to the game. Did you would expect we would agree with you? If so, then I have to follow up with what color is the sky in the world where you live? MAMBA is recruiting. -áWhen other folks are whining about a lack of content, we go out and create it. The case of Shrodinger's Hotdropper |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2845
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 19:58:00 -
[43] - Quote
Gavin Dax wrote:"Spreadsheets online" but we don't want an added 5 seconds every 15 min or longer to potentially drastically fix a broken mechanic?
Can't spare 5 seconds for a CAPTCHA, need to camp that gate.
Warped off from station but forgot something? Congrats you just wasted about as much time as you spent doing captchas in Jita for the last 3 (or potentially way more) hours.
Anyway, this is just my take on it. Thanks for the responses guys. Certainly wasn't what I would have expected but maybe useful feedback for CCP
I cannot read most captchas. I am not the only one. Why are you incapable of realising that adding a mechanic to ACTIVELY FORCE people to bot is an awful idea? |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
109
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 20:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:
^this.
Lotsa times it's like "hey stupid -- just because your calcs show you getting x% profit at [price] doesn't mean that you should undercut the market by 20m ISK because your spreadsheet told you to sell at that price. TAKE THE FREE EXTRA 20M ISK PROFIT!!!"
Like an a culprit often doing this when visitin jita (I haven't had a separate trading character until recently) I can only say that I haven't got all day to compete with you, market sharks, in 0.01 isk games. I need to dump my stuff quickly, grab my isks and swith to more intresting things on the horizon. But, at the same time, selling to your buy orders is most times simply a robbery. So I will undercat your sell prices boldly untill someone will lose his temper and buy my staff to make this stop. You can see it as my innovative market strategy. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
49
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 20:56:00 -
[45] - Quote
Gavin Dax wrote:"Spreadsheets online" but we don't want an added 5 seconds every 15 min or longer to potentially drastically fix a broken mechanic?
Can't spare 5 seconds for a CAPTCHA, need to camp that gate.
Warped off from station but forgot something? Congrats you just wasted about as much time as you spent doing captchas in Jita for the last 3 (or potentially way more) hours.
Anyway, this is just my take on it. Thanks for the responses guys. Certainly wasn't what I would have expected but maybe useful feedback for CCP
I think a better solution would be pop up ads. really annoying full screen ones with sound that is 10x the normal eve sound. every time an order is changed
That is as good as an idea as captcha are.
or to go outside the box both captch and pop up ad at the same time, triggered randomly when updating an order. |
Gavin Dax
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
66
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:43:00 -
[46] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote: I'm curious what you did expect when you suggested adding literally the most annoying feature of the Internet, bar none, to the game. Did you would expect we would agree with you? If so, then I have to follow up with what color is the sky in the world where you live?
I expected given the HTFU attitude that is common on these forums, people would not mind CAPTCHAs, yes, but who cares what I expected. If CAPTCHAs had existed from day 1, and someone posted a thread to have them removed from the game, I'm pretty sure the opinions would be quite different.
Then again, there's the fact that ideas are shot down rather quickly on these forums without any constructive discussion (think questions, refinement of an idea, alternative solutions, etc. make up maybe 5-10% of posts). Many here just like to argue, and a lot of smart people avoid the forums all together since it's not worth their time.
BTW I lol'd at CAPTCHAs being the most annoying feature of the internet. And apparently some EVE players have the patience to gate camp, run level 4 missions/anoms, shoot structures, etc. but don't have the patience for a little CAPTCHA on the rare occasion (and even if that means less micro-management of market orders)...
I wonder if CCP actually implemented an anti-bot test (almost synonymous these days with CAPTCHA for these purposes), would you really cry on the forums about it like this?
Danika Princip wrote: I cannot read most captchas. I am not the only one. Why are you incapable of realising that adding a mechanic to ACTIVELY FORCE people to bot is an awful idea?
CAPTCHAs are not only things you need to "read". There are image CAPTCHAs, or "button spawned at random location on the screen" CAPTCHAs, and many, many more ways to test for a bot/human. Again, I would have expected more of the EVE community to know this. The argument that CAPTCHAs would actually increase botting also made me laugh.
Lady Rift wrote: I think a better solution would be pop up ads. really annoying full screen ones with sound that is 10x the normal eve sound. every time an order is changed
That is as good as an idea as captcha are.
Aside from the fact that many CAPTCHAs are nowhere near that annoying, have you ever thought about what would happen without CAPTCHAs? The proposal was not for a CAPTCHA to be implemented for no reason. It was that they be implemented if bots were a big enough problem.
No discussion about "how big of a bot problem would need to exist before a CAPTCHA becomes worth it, does that currently exist" or anything like that though. Nope, CAPTCHAs are bad no matter what. Even if there is always a bot 0.01 ISKing every single one of your orders. Because those damn CAPTCHAs! lol |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
50
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 15:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Gavin Dax wrote:De'Veldrin wrote: I'm curious what you did expect when you suggested adding literally the most annoying feature of the Internet, bar none, to the game. Did you would expect we would agree with you? If so, then I have to follow up with what color is the sky in the world where you live?
I expected given the HTFU attitude that is common on these forums, people would not mind CAPTCHAs, yes, but who cares what I expected. If CAPTCHAs had existed from day 1, and someone posted a thread to have them removed from the game, I'm pretty sure the opinions would be quite different. Then again, there's the fact that ideas are shot down rather quickly on these forums without any constructive discussion (think questions, refinement of an idea, alternative solutions, etc. make up maybe 5-10% of posts). Many here just like to argue, and a lot of smart people avoid the forums all together since it's not worth their time. BTW I lol'd at CAPTCHAs being the most annoying feature of the internet. And apparently some EVE players have the patience to gate camp, run level 4 missions/anoms, shoot structures, etc. but don't have the patience for a little CAPTCHA on the rare occasion (and even if that means less micro-management of market orders)... I wonder if CCP actually implemented an anti-bot test (almost synonymous these days with CAPTCHA for these purposes), would you really cry on the forums about it like this? Danika Princip wrote: I cannot read most captchas. I am not the only one. Why are you incapable of realising that adding a mechanic to ACTIVELY FORCE people to bot is an awful idea?
CAPTCHAs are not only things you need to "read". There are image CAPTCHAs, or "button spawned at random location on the screen" CAPTCHAs, and many, many more ways to test for a bot/human. Again, I would have expected more of the EVE community to know this. The argument that CAPTCHAs would actually increase botting also made me laugh. Lady Rift wrote: I think a better solution would be pop up ads. really annoying full screen ones with sound that is 10x the normal eve sound. every time an order is changed
That is as good as an idea as captcha are.
Aside from the fact that many CAPTCHAs are nowhere near that annoying, have you ever thought about what would happen without CAPTCHAs? The proposal was not for a CAPTCHA to be implemented for no reason. It was that they be implemented if bots were a big enough problem. No discussion about "how big of a bot problem would need to exist before a CAPTCHA becomes worth it, does that currently exist" or anything like that though. Nope, CAPTCHAs are bad no matter what. Even if there is always a bot 0.01 ISKing every single one of your orders. Because those damn CAPTCHAs! lol
I 0.01 isk everyone's orders and I'm not a bot. for someone who thinks they know eve players so well you should know there are many people that 0.01isk cause that's what they do like some camp gates or stations. Eve is full of players that only want to cause other players to rage the game is partly based on that, the amount of rage and tears I see from people getting 0.01isked makes me more likely to go stay in jita a little longer to 0.01isk people.
There currently is no reason to believe that there are countless bots on the market (no one has anything beyond anecdotal evidence.)
What do you think is the most annoying thing on the internet? cause for me it is captchas.
The fact you don't think that a bot can be trained to run the market even with a captcha is funny, the only reason that it doesn't happen more often in bots is cause its not worth the time to get right in most cases. This would just help the ones who put in the time to get the bot working.
|
Shaklu
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 18:26:00 -
[48] - Quote
Back to the actual topic of this forum:
NO |
Gavin Dax
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
67
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 23:53:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote: I 0.01 isk everyone's orders and I'm not a bot. for someone who thinks they know eve players so well you should know there are many people that 0.01isk cause that's what they do like some camp gates or stations. Eve is full of players that only want to cause other players to rage the game is partly based on that, the amount of rage and tears I see from people getting 0.01isked makes me more likely to go stay in jita a little longer to 0.01isk people.
There currently is no reason to believe that there are countless bots on the market (no one has anything beyond anecdotal evidence.)
What do you think is the most annoying thing on the internet? cause for me it is captchas.
The fact you don't think that a bot can be trained to run the market even with a captcha is funny, the only reason that it doesn't happen more often in bots is cause its not worth the time to get right in most cases. This would just help the ones who put in the time to get the bot working.
You 0.01 ISK people for tears? Good job you cost someone 0.02 ISK, I'm sure they're crying about it.
A bot can 0.01 ISK way better than you anyway. I never claimed to know that market bots were an issue, but just because maybe 90% of players in EVE 0.01 ISK orders does not mean that bots don't exist as well. Bots exist for a lot of things in EVE, I see no reason to assume this isn't true for the market as well - your profits would be huge if you used a bot to play the buy-sell spreads in Jita all day, and no one would know you were botting unless you were dumb about it. You'd simply eat into the profits of those who do manual trading. And as an added bonus you wouldn't need to manage your own market orders. Seems pretty appealing to me, and as long as you're not dumb you won't get caught because nobody can tell you're a bot on the market without a CAPTCHA.
So the fact is you don't know how many bots there are either, and not even CCP will know unless they implement at least a temporary type of CAPTCHA and observe the market effects.
Regarding the inconvenience, here you will find some things that people find more annoying than CAPTCHAs.
Whether you agree or not, CAPTCHAs really are a minor inconvenience. It's something you just need to HTFU and accept instead of whining about how it's "the most annoying thing on the internet". It can be annoying when you fill out one of those written CAPTCHAs and other people happened to read it differently than you, yes. Does that warrant such a presupposition about all CAPTCHAs/implementations and an unconstructive response to this thread? No. |
Mag's
the united
17703
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 09:57:00 -
[50] - Quote
CAPTCHA in Eve? Are you mad?
No. Good god no. Hell no.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
|
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2453
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 10:41:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:Velicitia wrote: Lotsa times it's like "hey stupid -- just because your calcs show you getting x% profit at [price] doesn't mean that you should undercut the market by 20m ISK because your spreadsheet told you to sell at that price. TAKE THE FREE EXTRA 20M ISK PROFIT!!!"
Like a culprit who often is doing this when visiting jita (I haven't had a separate trading character until recently) I can only say in my defense that I haven't got all day to compete with you, seasoned market sharks, in 0.01 isk games. I need to dump my stuff quickly, grab my isks and switch to more intresting things on the horizon. But, at the same time, selling to your buy orders is most times simply a robbery. So I will undercut your sell prices boldly untill somebody will lose his temper and buy my stuff to make this stop. You can see it as my innovative market strategy.
Market shark?
**** dude, I have 20 (21?) slots, and 14 of them are usually buy orders.
Do you really expect that by dropping the price by 5, 10, or 20 million will really get your item sold any faster than if you dropped the price a few hundred thousand? I mean, 0.01 ISKers (and other lemmings) will just see your price, and undercut you there anyway ..
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
855
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 11:50:00 -
[52] - Quote
Well, if simply moving the undock button caused such anger, it does make one think that this would raise a similar effect. CAPCHA has really bad associations in peoples minds, one immidiately thinks of the worst imaginable implementations. However, were the solution to be one where one needed to confirm the purchase or sale order in a way that was both logical and intuitive for a human but non trivial for a bot, then If botting was not a desired option, I could support it, especially if it also helped protect against mistypes. But I suspect that those who are making the most of this mechanic would strongly disapprove. And those who spend many hours on these forums, probably have such extensive free time for a reason. So I am afraid you will get mainly negative responses. This is one for CCP to decide where their priorities lie, only they know the full extent and importance of the issue, in the mean time we just need to find our own way around them and just put up with it. There is still money to be made, and plenty of it. There are a lot worse bots to deal with. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
bowwowruffruff
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 13:23:00 -
[53] - Quote
terrible idea NO ******* CAPTCHA |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |