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Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
540
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Posted - 2014.07.29 10:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL;DR - Change Web heat bonus to web strength, not range.
I've said more than once that overheating Webs is one of the most overpowered uses of heat in the game. As a quick comparison to back up this statement look at this:
Overheating weapons doesn't last very long - over the course of a fight it makes a small difference (just enough to win the fight in some cases) Overheating movement mods is limited by a very finite number of uses, also it's limited by the activation duration of the module (You can't suddenly overheat as a twitch reaction to a situation that occurs mid-cycle) Overheating Tank mods results in significant tanking increase for a limited amount of time (Similar to weapons, just enough to stay alive in some cases) Overheating a long-range point can be just enough to keep a fast target disrupted long enough for 1/2 final volley's to finish them off, or to grab someone at long range while they align.
Overheating can lead to a small advantage over the course of a long fight, enough to win it in some cases. But this isn't the case with Webs being overheated - a single cycle of overheat can (and does, frequently) decide a fight. It can sit deactivated with itGÇÖs overheat toggled on. Spamming the Web button while slingshoting can grab a target significantly more often than without overheat. Once the target is caught, heat goes off and isn't used again. Generally when used in situations of a slower ship with high dps/tank against faster ship with low DPS/tank (the price it pays for being fast and having range) the net result is a loss for the ranged ship.
On the flip side of this, targets who are webbed still move fast enough to cause issues for larger ships in most cases, allowing them to slow-boat out of range while still staying relatively safe from guns.
The net effect is that webs currently don't punish bad piloting (e.g. getting in range of a bigger ship in a small fragile one) and makes the difference between faster and slower ships of the same ship class much smaller (e.g. 1 movement-mod overheat and 1-web overheat can crush a significant speed advantage and takes much more effort to avoid than It takes to use against someone).
I could go on but the point of the thread is this: Change Web overheating bonus to increased web *strength* not range.
Overheating webs on already ranged bonused ships combined with gang links leads to insane situations with near 100KM faction web ranges - this is a counter example of what CCP called 'Ludicrous Speed' when all three things combined lead to 18KM/s Interceptors.
This change hopes to breathe some life into larger ships such as Battleships who, as of right now, offer little advantage in combat terms but have massive weaknesses in both ability to move around Eve and ability to effectively apply damage. The idea being that a few overheated cycles gives larger ships time to apply damage to pilots who have been sloppy or thrown themselves into web range by paying no attention.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1443
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Posted - 2014.07.29 10:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Too much impact to be thrown in like this.
Half of eve pvp would need to be rebalanced.
Prop mod Overheat is WAY more overpowered (nothing gives such a massive boost).
What I think web needs is a split. 3 size of webs.
Frigate Sized 8 km 50% Cruiser sized 10 km 60% Battleship sized 12 km 70%. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
540
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Posted - 2014.07.29 11:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Too much impact to be thrown in like this.
Half of eve pvp would need to be rebalanced.
Prop mod Overheat is WAY more overpowered (nothing gives such a massive boost).
What I think web needs is a split. 3 size of webs.
Frigate Sized 8 km 50% Cruiser sized 10 km 60% Battleship sized 12 km 70%.
Ironically that would break combat way more. |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
53
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Posted - 2014.07.29 11:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Too much impact to be thrown in like this.
Half of eve pvp would need to be rebalanced.
Prop mod Overheat is WAY more overpowered (nothing gives such a massive boost).
What I think web needs is a split. 3 size of webs.
Frigate Sized 8 km 50% Cruiser sized 10 km 60% Battleship sized 12 km 70%. that basically would remove frigates from game. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
846
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Posted - 2014.07.29 12:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
it would solve some of problems with the crazy range you can get out of webs combined with a nerf too the warfare link that increases web/point range..
but webs needs a base strength nerf really for this too be possible ... what would a serpentis ship end up with 95% ??? that and maybe a nerf to serpentis web strength bonus Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
225
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Posted - 2014.07.29 12:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:it would solve some of problems with the crazy range you can get out of webs combined with a nerf too the warfare link that increases web/point range..
but webs needs a base strength nerf really for this too be possible ... what would a serpentis ship end up with 95% ??? that and maybe a nerf to serpentis web strength bonus
It would make the blood ships too good with overheats, serpentis are already sufficiently awesome that that difference between 90% going higher almost wouldnt matter, overkill if you will.
But the ones with mad range already, being able to OH into heavy strengths....ouch time. And the minnie recons. |
Valkin Mordirc
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
38
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Posted - 2014.07.29 12:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
I don't know if I agree with this or not, for one overheating a web on a kiting ship is a life save and damn near impossible to do without. Making it so that kiting becomes less viable or people will have to shell out even more more for Faction Webs with what they could sorta do with the Meta-4.
Though I do agree, a loki without any links gets a ridiculous web range, add links in and it becomes silly. Rather than changing the overheat bonus, we have some sort of range pentiy for linked ships with web range bonus?
Also towards Kagura; I don't think sizes would matter, Battleships would become OP and could easily kill cruisers with a single web, and Frigates would be come almost completely useless, Psychotic Monk for CSM9 |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
540
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Posted - 2014.07.29 12:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:I don't know if I agree with this or not, for one overheating a web on a kiting ship is a life save and damn near impossible to do without. Making it so that kiting becomes less viable or people will have to shell out even more more for Faction Webs with what they could sorta do with the Meta-4.
Though I do agree, a loki without any links gets a ridiculous web range, add links in and it becomes silly. Rather than changing the overheat bonus, we have some sort of range pentiy for linked ships with web range bonus?
Also towards Kagura; I don't think sizes would matter, Battleships would become OP and could easily kill cruisers with a single web, and Frigates would be come almost completely useless,
The big deal from what i see is the difference between web range and point range - With overheating it's too small. If you have an afterburner and an MWD kiting ship catches you in space then you have just been hard-countered. It's like running an active tanked laser boat with no cap injector and meeting a Curse.
Inherently the faster you move, the easier it is to be caught using a slingshot - agility is more the key factor. I'll never accept that kiting ships are too hard to catch - They can chose to disengage definitely - but people seem to forget the penalties of fighting at range, and the penalties you take using slots to become faster. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
208
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Posted - 2014.07.29 13:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
I hear what you're saying about "heat it once and ever again". Most mods you overheat, you leave them overheated for a while, but with webs it's usually only once. And I also hear what you're saying about the "Ludicrous Speed" bonus to overheated prop mods. I fly 'ceptors, I rely on speed to live, and even I think the overheat bonus is kinda crazy.
However, I don't think these issues justify changing the overheat bonus for webs from range to strength. Here's why:
1. When CCP changed webs from 90% to 60%, they also rebalanced turrets, ship movement, etc. around it. Mucking around with the web bonus is not something to do lightly, and I don't see that much work for so little benefit being worth it.
2. CCP has granted a select few ships bonuses to web strength. Changing the web overheat bonus would lessen the role of these ships, or, even worse, overpower them.
3. Scrams and disruptors have overheat bonuses to range. Since webs are also propulsion jamming modules, it seems fitting that they would have the same overheat bonus.
4. It's okay that some modules rely on heat differently than others. Why make all heat usage the same? Isn't that what we tell the folks who want an armor invul field or a shield EANM?
I sympathize with the issues raised here and agree that they could use some looking into, but I don't agree with your proposed solution. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1443
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Posted - 2014.07.29 13:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Too much impact to be thrown in like this.
Half of eve pvp would need to be rebalanced.
Prop mod Overheat is WAY more overpowered (nothing gives such a massive boost).
What I think web needs is a split. 3 size of webs.
Frigate Sized 8 km 50% Cruiser sized 10 km 60% Battleship sized 12 km 70%. that basically would remove frigates from game.
No would NOT. Frigates that go tackle already go at 1-2 km if they want to avoid being tracked by larger ships. The only problem with that woudl be the need to reduce a bit vindicator bonus. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
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Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
541
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Posted - 2014.07.29 15:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Sara Tosa wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Too much impact to be thrown in like this.
Half of eve pvp would need to be rebalanced.
Prop mod Overheat is WAY more overpowered (nothing gives such a massive boost).
What I think web needs is a split. 3 size of webs.
Frigate Sized 8 km 50% Cruiser sized 10 km 60% Battleship sized 12 km 70%. that basically would remove frigates from game. No would NOT. Frigates that go tackle already go at 1-2 km if they want to avoid being tracked by larger ships. The only problem with that woudl be the need to reduce a bit vindicator bonus.
Webbed, scrammed, neuted, droned, dead. You really need to stop camping carebears into stations and fight against other willing pilots.
This is what happens when a frig tries to tackle a prepared PVP BS. I was the only one in the corp willing to smash myself into 10km range to grab the kill - then the KM vultures decended.
Wait, what corp is that? |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4049
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Posted - 2014.07.29 15:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
A few points...
Often you can overheat your weapons for an ENTIRE fight, which makes overheating them extremely important. Overheating webs is extremely important for brawlers to catch kiters. Overheating webs and scrams is also very important to maintaining tackle on the ship trying to run away long enough to destroy it.
While changing the overheat bonus to web strength is interesting, I'm not sure that's a good thing. Especially since you can overheat a web much longer than you can overheat an AB or MWD.
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De'Veldrin
Black Serpent Technologies The Unthinkables
2678
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Posted - 2014.07.29 16:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
afkalt wrote: And the minnie recons.
Oh yeah. I would love a pair of 90% webs with 40k range on my Rapier.
Here interceptors...I have a surprise for you....
MAMBA is recruiting. -áWhen other folks are whining about a lack of content, we go out and create it. The case of Shrodinger's Hotdropper |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
277
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Posted - 2014.07.29 16:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
The thing I love about the OP is this...
Maeltstome wrote: Overheating a long-range point can be just enough to keep a fast target disrupted long enough for 1/2 final volley's to finish them off, or to grab someone at long range while they align.
He lays out how points have an extended range as well...and yet...
Maeltstome wrote: Overheating can lead to a small advantage over the course of a long fight, enough to win it in some cases. But this isn't the case with Webs being overheated - a single cycle of overheat can (and does, frequently) decide a fight. It can sit deactivated with itGÇÖs overheat toggled on. Spamming the Web button while slingshoting can grab a target significantly more often than without overheat. Once the target is caught, heat goes off and isn't used again.
Hmmm, this sounds like another module, but I can't quite put my finger on it. For some reason I think it's because he already mentioned something about it...lets read on a bit and maybe we can figure this out...
Maeltstome wrote: Overheating webs on already ranged bonused ships combined with gang links leads to insane situations with near 100KM faction web ranges - this is a counter example of what CCP called 'Ludicrous Speed' when all three things combined lead to 18KM/s Interceptors.
Wait, I got it, replace webs with points and scrams. Yet the OP seems to support how points and scrams have an extended range bonus when overheated, but not webs?
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
rsantos
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
12
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Posted - 2014.07.29 17:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
nop... webs are fine! |
Alundil
Isogen 5
610
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Posted - 2014.07.29 18:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
I agree with rsantos on this one. Granting a strength bonus to overheating webs, especially for Serpentis hulls, would be craecrae. They are fine.
I'm right behind you |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
543
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Posted - 2014.07.30 08:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
The Serpentis Hulls are a non issue. 90% webs are basically as good as a complete stop - You're just as dea at 10% speed as you are at 5%. I fly interceptors too - if a rapier lands 2 webs on you at 40KM you're dead regardless if they have a point on you. Its over 80% movement slow from 2 webs.
I didn't mention strength bonus, but making 60% webs be 90% would be a 50% overheat bonus... that's far too strong. I didn't mention numbers on purpose but somethign around the 20%-30% would be about as strong as required.
As a final point scramblers do get a range bonus from overheat. It's a little different though: Scramblers have a shorter range (9km on T2) and bonused ships get half as much range increase as Web bonused ships do. They are also counterable as the only deactivate MWD's - AB fit ships can still get under the guns of larger ships who use scramblers if they are AB/Dual-Prop fit.
Even overheated, scramblers barely get more range than webs without heat as the overheat bonus is 20% versus webs 30% |
Alundil
Isogen 5
613
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Posted - 2014.07.30 17:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:The Serpentis Hulls are a non issue. 90% webs are basically as good as a complete stop - You're just as dea at 10% speed as you are at 5%. I fly interceptors too - if a rapier lands 2 webs on you at 40KM you're dead regardless if they have a point on you. Its over 80% movement slow from 2 webs.
I didn't mention strength bonus, but making 60% webs be 90% would be a 50% overheat bonus... that's far too strong. I didn't mention numbers on purpose but somethign around the 20%-30% would be about as strong as required.
As a final point scramblers do get a range bonus from overheat. It's a little different though: Scramblers have a shorter range (9km on T2) and bonused ships get half as much range increase as Web bonused ships do. They are also counterable as the only deactivate MWD's - AB fit ships can still get under the guns of larger ships who use scramblers if they are AB/Dual-Prop fit.
Even overheated, scramblers barely get more range than webs without heat as the overheat bonus is 20% versus webs 30% You are failing to take into account CCP math and the very real possibility that over heating webs on a serpentis hull causes the targeted ship to accelerate in some crazy negative (but interpreted as absolute) value of -123456789 and it zips off into grids never before seen all without waiting for player built stargates.
I'm right behind you |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1472
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Posted - 2014.07.30 18:21:00 -
[19] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Sara Tosa wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Too much impact to be thrown in like this.
Half of eve pvp would need to be rebalanced.
Prop mod Overheat is WAY more overpowered (nothing gives such a massive boost).
What I think web needs is a split. 3 size of webs.
Frigate Sized 8 km 50% Cruiser sized 10 km 60% Battleship sized 12 km 70%. that basically would remove frigates from game. No would NOT. Frigates that go tackle already go at 1-2 km if they want to avoid being tracked by larger ships. The only problem with that woudl be the need to reduce a bit vindicator bonus. Webbed, scrammed, neuted, droned, dead. You really need to stop camping carebears into stations and fight against other willing pilots. This is what happens when a frig tries to tackle a prepared PVP BS. I was the only one in the corp willing to smash myself into 10km range to grab the kill - then the KM vultures decended. Wait, what corp is that?
Another ignorant htat thinks we camp carebears...
your link just helps MY point. It changes nothing. If the battleship already does that, then nothing would change. Thank you for destroying your own position so easily
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1472
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 18:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
De'Veldrin wrote:afkalt wrote: And the minnie recons. Oh yeah. I would love a pair of 90% webs with 40k range on my Rapier. Here interceptors...I have a surprise for you....
You know they used to be exaclty that don' t you? "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
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