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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1163
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 22:51:00 -
[391] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:mynnna wrote: As Querns noted, catching you before you edited, it runs a single damage mod. The Zealot I compared to has two, the Tengu three. The point is to compare standard fleet fits to the range of Ishtar DPS numbers and illustrate that the Ishtar's range is "about 15% lower" to "nearly 50% higher" than other fleet cruisers, with some common fleet BS included just because.
>Comparing single damage mod to 3 damage mods >Comparing damage as if tracking plays no role >Comparing inability to change location 3 times and still having dps to not having that >Comparing 55k ehp with 150k +ehp Baltec is completely different to ishtars and while ishtars are very strong in numbers ranging from 10-25 they dont scale well beyond that. Meanwhile slowcats truly have no counter and nobody complains because guess who fields them the most. You guessed right. Your coalition.
Did you just say the CFC is not unhappy about the state of slowcat? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
10835
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 22:52:00 -
[392] - Quote
captain foivos wrote:Who cares if a flight of drones dies or gets left behind when you have a hundred more flights sitting in your drone hangar? Sentries aren't free. There's always a collective groan in cap fleets whenever we lose a flight of them. No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1457
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 22:55:00 -
[393] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Keep the optimal range bonus on the ishtar as-is. Drop the tracking bonus entirely.
The tracking on the ishtar is the main problem and the drop to 5% is not nearly enough to address this (see the graphs posted elsewhere in this thread).
Ok ok.. I am agreeing with a goon. So this must be seriously right. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kaeda Maxwell
Carebear Luv Klub Neo-Bushido Movement
312
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Posted - 2014.07.29 22:57:00 -
[394] - Quote
For the Ishtar, have you considered increasing it's mass a little in addition to lowering its speed?
While the sentries themselves are an issue much of the Ishtars issues are caused by the fact it burns around on the grid with impudence after deploying it's stationary weapons. If it had more trouble turning/accelerating and decelerating it might solve much of the problem. And it would create a bit of diversity with the relatively fast and nimble Vexor Navy. 100mn fits that are now super popular for Ishtar PvE in 0.0 would also be come a little less amazing at what they do.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1457
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Posted - 2014.07.29 22:58:00 -
[395] - Quote
5yndr0m3 wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hi guys
You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!
After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.
HACs on the other hand are a slightly different story. In general the class gained a lot of power in the last pass and it's seeing plenty of use across the board, but there are some pretty clear imbalances between certain ships in the class. If you've undocked lately you probably know the Ishtar especially is a little out of control. Here's the small set of changes we're going to make:
Ishtar: Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level Max Velocity from 195 -> 185
Eagle: Max Velocity from 180 -> 190
Muninn: Max velocity from 210 -> 230
We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.
Looking forward to your feedback as always
PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?
Note for clarity: Hyperion release date is August 26 Where is the Recon/T3 balance? Also dont touch the Tempest, its in a good place. making it strictly an armor tank ship would be bad. The Ishtar nerf dosent go far enough. Seriously, when you have them listed for more points in the AT than any other hac, you really need to pound it with a hammer.
A good place is to never ever be used? How many you saw lately? The tempest is a failure because it wastes 2 damage bonus to have less damage than its peers.
It need changes. Rise proposed change is among the least efficient and most uninterestign ways to try it, but at least he wants to try.
What tempest really needs is 75/7 and/OR 5%rof And 7.5% damage to projectiles
that or make it even smaller and faster than the typhoon
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5425
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 22:58:00 -
[396] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.
An end to sledge-hammer rebalancing? Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
GROUND XERO
Rennfeuer Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 22:59:00 -
[397] - Quote
how te hell is someone comming up with such ****** nerfs and buffs???
You are out of the game for too long or ? |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1163
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Posted - 2014.07.29 22:59:00 -
[398] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Goochan derp wrote:using the argument that sentries can be killed as a downside is kind of lame when your talking about a ship that can hold 3 sets of them. if your going to put forth the effort to kill that many drones you have probably already lost the fight. each garde2 has over 6000 raw hp with max skills so that's 30,000 hp per set. assuming an ehp value of 45,000 for the ishtar that adds up to 135,000 hp you have to kill, assuming you kill every drone and the ship... all while doing a meager 1800 m/s. sure your drones die eventually but they are essentially tripling your ehp to do so.
the fact that sentries cant move can also be seen as an advantage, if your kiting away from your enemy your essentially laying a big fat land mine in your wake whenever you deploy them. what downside is there to this? should my fleet stop and kill the drones before continuing?
the problem with the ishtar is that its simply the total package. it has everything you can possibly want in a ship.
the way to bring it in line with other ships is to start taking away its features one at a time, the problem is, where to start?
i think even if the optimal+tracking bonus was removed completely it would still be op, sentries have great range even before that bonus, and not every ship that uses large weapon systems needs a tracking bonus to be effective either.
ive spent way too much time writing this post and i don't know what else to do about this ship. ccp dosen't have it easy when it comes to ship balance, that's for sure. It's a downside. You cannot remain 100% effective while your drones are being killed. We can talk when everyone has guns that can be shot off one by one. While 6000 EHP is 6000EHP, there is no way to change their resist profile, and being stationary damage applies to them really well, so if you are bringing something to kill them, it's pretty easy to know exactly what to use. The ship carries multiple waves, but ECM or Damps on the drone ship can curb much of the effectiveness of that. There is no 100% counter, but there are valid tactics that will make killing them much easier than just charging up and attempting to blasterize them.
Every single time you send 6k+ EHP worth of damage on a sentry, the enemy send their counter volley on your ship and deploy an new sentry. That's where killing the drones fail.
ECM and damp have worse effect on non drone ship so that's not a drawback at all, it's an advantage because at least part of your DPS is still applied even if in a non optimized way while missile/turret ships have to wait until their targeting system recover. |
Karash Amerius
Sutoka
190
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Posted - 2014.07.29 23:03:00 -
[399] - Quote
How about we just add some sort of visual overlay or addition to the overview that signifies which ship has the drones assigned to it? That way FCs can disrupt the command and control better.
Just white boarding here. Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka |
Lin Fatale
Mechanized Industrial Warfare Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
26
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Posted - 2014.07.29 23:12:00 -
[400] - Quote
so we can delete one of the last usefull ships from the list for small gangs
your plan to streamline evrything into harpy, crow, logi only blob fleets without any counters especialy for smaller gangs gets to the next level
which is great because you know we all hate the small gangs which try to fight with few ppl vs larger gangs and you are right this should be impossible, numbers is the game evryone has to play |
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1268
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:14:00 -
[401] - Quote
Skia Aumer wrote:Sister Bliss wrote:The only BS fleets you tend to see now... What you see now may have very little to do with bombers. For example, it's really annoying to make 10 to 20 jumps to get a fight while in a battleship. Why, if you can use Ishtar instead? My point stands - bombers and battleships have a very long mutual history. And now we have MJD. Shorten MJD spoolup if there is a bomb on grid. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
624
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:22:00 -
[402] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:mynnna wrote: As Querns noted, catching you before you edited, it runs a single damage mod. The Zealot I compared to has two, the Tengu three. The point is to compare standard fleet fits to the range of Ishtar DPS numbers and illustrate that the Ishtar's range is "about 15% lower" to "nearly 50% higher" than other fleet cruisers, with some common fleet BS included just because.
>Comparing single damage mod to 3 damage mods >Comparing damage as if tracking plays no role >Comparing inability to change location 3 times and still having dps to not having that >Comparing 55k ehp with 150k +ehp Baltec is completely different to ishtars and while ishtars are very strong in numbers ranging from 10-25 they dont scale well beyond that. Meanwhile slowcats truly have no counter and nobody complains because guess who fields them the most. You guessed right. Your coalition. holy lawl did this guy just say goons don't complain about slowcats |
Mariner6
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
196
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:22:00 -
[403] - Quote
These changes seem absolutely reasonable and sufficient. Nice to see small tweaks instead of just crushing a ship into oblivion. Any more nerfing on the Ishtar will kill it. Perfect, now how about putting that power grid back into the Vigilant?! |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
694
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:27:00 -
[404] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote: and while ishtars are very strong in numbers ranging from 10-25 they dont scale well beyond that. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....wait...wait... doesn't scale well...PFFFFHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Quote:Meanwhile slowcats truly have no counter and nobody complains because guess who fields them the most.
You guessed right.
Your coalition. Sentry carriers are stupid, sentry carriers supported by EWAR immune supercaps is even more stupid. We're not the ones abusing that particular mechanic presently, but by God WE ARE GOING TO DO IT BECAUSE CCP NEEDS TO BE REPEATEDLY HIT OVER THE HEAD WITH THEIR OWN STUPID MECHANICS TILL THEY NERF THAT SHITE INTO THE GROUND. "it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka-á |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
135
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:30:00 -
[405] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest.
I prefer the current slot layout. If you want to do something for the pest why not reduce the mass a bit so that with a propmod it flies like a heavy battlecruiser.
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Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
56
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Posted - 2014.07.29 23:30:00 -
[406] - Quote
Karash Amerius wrote:How about we just add some sort of visual overlay or addition to the overview that signifies which ship has the drones assigned to it? That way FCs can disrupt the command and control better.
Just white boarding here.
Why does it have to be so complex?
EWAR should affect the ship which should affect it's drones. It so damn simple. ECM a ship, it loses connection with its drones. Tracking Disrupt a ship, the tracking of its dromes are affected. Sensor Damp a ship, its drones sensors should be damped.
EWAR onto an enemy ship needs to affect it's drones. Basic and simple concept.
Whats the counter that the drone ships can use?? ECCM. Takes up midslots. Its effective. Even skills to increase racialnsensor strength.
The game already has the answer built right into the game. Counter Measures. CCP just needs to get with it and make the ewar carry from the ship to its drones. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
851
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:32:00 -
[407] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Harvey James wrote:Deeone wrote:Harvey James wrote:i expected the ishtar change ... will the domi change aswell then?
Eagle - i did say in the HAC page it was far too slow .. would be nice at 200 along with some drones .. it has a dronebay now on the model and would allow for blaster variants then instead of only rails ...
Vagabond - please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal??? Speed is the min resilience.......Seriously its made out of rust and tape you really think it can tank? just compare the vaga to the stabber and cynabal and even orthrus now.. ............speed /mass vaga - 295 / 11.59 stabber - 290 / 11.4 cynabal - 263 / 9.0 orthrus - 245 / 9.3 yet the other 3 don't get the same kind of resilience , cap, sensor strength or tank = shield booster and T2 bonuses You just proved you have no CLUE. That HUGE mass advantage of the pirate battleships means a LOT. And the Vagabons ID the SPEED havc, it shoudl be the FASTEST cruisers ANYwhere. YEt.. you missed the true offender. Navy Omen.
you would think the mass difference would be a big advantage .. but inevitably its counterbalanced too the point where it isn't .. there speed still ends up in the same area.... and what did the navy omen do? its hardly a beacon of super speed..
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1268
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:37:00 -
[408] - Quote
Sentries aren't drones. They are deployable battleship turrets. That's why they are imbalanced. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
GreenSeed
1095
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:42:00 -
[409] - Quote
the buff to the Eagle is fine and all, but the caldari HAC lineup is still confusing as hell. both the eagle and the Cerb overlap with one another... they do the same thing! i can see one is a missile boat and the other a rail platform... but that cant be all. i know that the Zealot/Sacrilege thing was lighting in a bottle and repeating the same thing without copying it 1:1 is probably impossible, but could we at least define one hull as a HAM brawler and the other one as a rail/HML sniper... as it is the eagle is still a line hull that wont see play on small gangs unless you keep buffing it, until you cave in and give it a drone bay or an extra ewar slot... and then the thing with get OP. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
855
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:46:00 -
[410] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Crazy thought for sentry drones:
Sentry drones are battleship sized weapons, in a very small hull. So they're taking liberties with shielding and the like, and are unstable.
When destroyed, they explode, damaging anything in a 6km radius, doing at least enough damage to kill any sentry drone (max boosted sentry drone, at that matter)
Oh, and push sentry drone deployment out to a 3km radius of the ship deploying them.
And just to take care of a potential issue, no sentry drone deployment within, say, 20km of a station or star gate.
If you were doing this, one would need to make sure sentries spread and could be recalled so you do not get them pop corning each other where one popping pops the whole group.
But it would not really change anything, just an interesting mechanic. The question is, is there a counter to the ship and weapon system? If there is not then a resolution would be wise, or is it that a counter via player behaviour has not been found yet, or those who have found it are keeping it (naturally) to themselves? If ishtars are so wildly overpowered, then why are we seeing them in killmails? As losses? CCP can see the true balance here, it is worth it for us to find the tactics, and the fights where we can either use them or exploit their weaknesses.
Either may be possible, I make no statement either way, but both sides of the argument need to be fully considered. But minor changes as suggested, can be monitored through the stats and revisited as needed. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1458
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:54:00 -
[411] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Harvey James wrote:Deeone wrote:Harvey James wrote:i expected the ishtar change ... will the domi change aswell then?
Eagle - i did say in the HAC page it was far too slow .. would be nice at 200 along with some drones .. it has a dronebay now on the model and would allow for blaster variants then instead of only rails ...
Vagabond - please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal??? Speed is the min resilience.......Seriously its made out of rust and tape you really think it can tank? just compare the vaga to the stabber and cynabal and even orthrus now.. ............speed /mass vaga - 295 / 11.59 stabber - 290 / 11.4 cynabal - 263 / 9.0 orthrus - 245 / 9.3 yet the other 3 don't get the same kind of resilience , cap, sensor strength or tank = shield booster and T2 bonuses You just proved you have no CLUE. That HUGE mass advantage of the pirate battleships means a LOT. And the Vagabons ID the SPEED havc, it shoudl be the FASTEST cruisers ANYwhere. YEt.. you missed the true offender. Navy Omen. you would think the mass difference would be a big advantage .. but inevitably its counterbalanced too the point where it isn't .. there speed still ends up in the same area.... and what did the navy omen do? its hardly a beacon of super speed..
The idea is exaclty the speed to be on same area. The navy omen? Not a speed beacon? Omg have you ever fit one?
Let me explain like this.. we are famous for flyign basically only nano fleets.. and no one of us uses vagabonds. Navy omens on other hand.. even we consider them overpowered.
With my sameimplants.. My navy omen does 2.8 km/s without links. My vaga that has worse damage projection and tracking (altough better tank) goes 50ms more. The supposedly fastest cruiser ever is barely faster than a cruiser of the suposedly slower race. mmm while the laser boat fields better damage application. The extra tank is not relevant. If you ware relayign on speed you are doing it wrong if you take too much damage.
If somethign should be done is INCREASE vagabond speed. I barely do nto see them anymore. PEopel tried them for a hwile after the shiedl boost chagnes but soon epopel noticed that for brawling other ships outshine him by far. And for nano work the cynabal and orthos are superior.
And do not forget the kingof the kitign ships... no I will ot tell wich one, would spoil it. Hint it is not minmatar... and we use a LOT.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Pj Harvey
Ship spinners inc
24
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:55:00 -
[412] - Quote
The Muninn needs more. Haven't seen one in combat in about 5 years. What would really bring more life to it is a double tracking bonus, let it excel as a mid-range arty sniper with outstanding tracking. |
Cyrek Ohaya
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:56:00 -
[413] - Quote
I think to be able to understand how to balance the ishtar you need to look up what is it upgrading from, from its basic T1:
Sacrilege: An odd one evolved from the Maller but with missiles. A range bonus, two damage bonuses and a tanking one, very attractive.
Muninn: Straight upgrade from the Rupture with two new bonuses to projection, would have preferred if it had falloff but the Vaga also having it would appear very conflicting, understandable.
Eagle: Again, straight upgrade to the moa, perfect! two bonusbonuses to optimal. Attractive, efficient tho? don't know. Rails are very popular but can't compete well, like the muninn.
Ishtar :...Okay, the way you balanced this ship is, weird? An intact drone damage bonus, dropped its hybrid turret bonus during an update, AND added THREE exotic bonuses to it, Two very specific for different types of drones, drone control? On synergy with the heavy drones, good! Now I've read this thread very thoroughly, players find the sentries very out of place here, very effective vs Battleships you can't deny they aren't for them (400 turret resolution), it is questionable why you guys pushed this role to the ship, a sentry ship, What I'd do I would change its heavy drone speed and tracking bonus to be wide across light,mediums and heavys to 10% per skill level, drop its sentry bonus and add in an attractive armor repair bonus, so you guys can put those medium AARs finally to use, which you pvp hardcores probably won't.
I only focused on rating the Heavy and Slower HACs on my article.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8285
|
Posted - 2014.07.29 23:59:00 -
[414] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
You cannot remain 100% effective while your drones are being killed. We can talk when everyone has guns that can be shot off one by one.
If you really want to go there, we can.
We can talk when cruiser sized ships aren't allowed to use battleship sized weapons. Because that's what the Ishtar is right now, a cruiser that can use a battleship weapon system with absolutely zero tradeoffs.
Yeah, they can be shot at. That's balances regular drones, not sentries, which you can park ridiculously far away from the enemy. Regular drones have to come to you,so you can feasibly clean them off. Sentry drones do not.
You've actually suggested that the enemy be FORCED to dedicate dps ships to shoot sentry drones until the Ishtar runs out, and then runs away because it outranges any point in the game anyway.
That is beyond asinine. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8285
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 00:01:00 -
[415] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: If ishtars are so wildly overpowered, then why are we seeing them in killmails? As losses?
You've said a lot of stupid things, but this is one of your dumbest.
You see them as killmails because sometimes people bring more Ishtars than the first group. Because sometimes people screw up and make mistakes.
But it does not preclude them from being wildly overpowered just because they sometimes die. Those two things are completely unrelated. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
135
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 00:06:00 -
[416] - Quote
I suggest this partially in jest, but what the ishtar fleet lacks is the rock - paper - scissors that nearly every other concept has to deal with. So, simply give them the "caldari" experience by applying the hull bonus only to thermal damage. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
855
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 00:08:00 -
[417] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: If ishtars are so wildly overpowered, then why are we seeing them in killmails? As losses?
You've said a lot of stupid things, but this is one of your dumbest. You see them as killmails because sometimes people bring more Ishtars than the first group. Because sometimes people screw up and make mistakes. But it does not preclude them from being wildly overpowered just because they sometimes die. Those two things are completely unrelated. Thank you for yet another of your invaluable ad hominem posts.
Please read the whole post, and try to pay attention.
But taking one line completely out of context is obviously such fun There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
227
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 00:09:00 -
[418] - Quote
Can't tell if already posted.
With the ishtars, I'd do what is proposed already and then push a medium into a low to force an armor tank to slow it further. |
rsantos
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
12
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 00:13:00 -
[419] - Quote
Ishtar is so simple to fix... bring its DPS down to 500-600 with heavies and 400 with sentries |
Budan Kado
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 00:20:00 -
[420] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Fredric Wolf wrote:Budan Kado wrote:CFC if you cant beat them, nerf them.
Devs I hope you skip over the CFC posting brigade of nerfing. Its sorta personal for them. They cant figure out how to beat them, so they will try to get them nerfed. This isnt a new case, it has happened before with ships.
Its a shame really, they have the biggest collection of players in Nullsec and when they cant out blob something, they run and cry about it to get it nerfed. Do you mean the same fleet doctrines most of the alliances in the CFC currently use? Just because it is not a CFC doctrine does not mean it is not being used by the CFC. Or is the the standard Grr Goons reply when you cant defend something that is clearly broken and most sides agree on this statement. why are you replying to an npc alt
because, unlike you, he understands that i pay for my accts, there for i can post on what ever character on that acct. how about you get everyone in CFC to post with their mains, then i will do the same. but we know that will never happen in a million years. |
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