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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
23576
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Posted - 2014.07.31 09:14:00 -
[31] - Quote
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:This seems to be the same as saying "I want a skill point refund for my skills in flying ship XYZ, because after the patch ABC is better." It is. The only difference is that ABC was better all along and nothing has really changed between it and XYZ GÇö he's just a little late to the party when it comes to figuring this out.
Quote:Btw, as someone who doesn't do asteroid mining, I am curious: Why is mining not worth it anymore? I was under the impression that the refining changes reduced the mineral amount coming from refining mission loot, while in case of mined ore there was a compensating change for that. This would mean, if everything else stayed the same, that the total supply of minerals went down, while mining still nets about the same amount of minerals. This seems a change in favor of mining.
So .. what else changed to negate that? Or am I misunderstanding something? Nah. All of what you say is correct; all of what the OP says is not. Your GÇ£misunderstandingGÇ¥ comes from the OP not being entirely honest about his capabilities. If you have perfect refining skills, you get the same amount of minerals out of the ore as you always did (in fact, you can get more now if you're willing to put some extra effort in). The OP just doesn't have perfect refining skills in spite of trying to claim them as such. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
Doomsdale Little
Doom and Gloom Corp
1
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Posted - 2014.07.31 10:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The null sec cartel's completely control CCP, and Eve. Their well-documented goal is to destroy high sec, of which mining was (pre-Crius), still a marginally a profitable occupation, if you did not mind the cartel funded griefers like CODE.
Now, it is garbage, like most other things in high sec. (BTW, level 4's and Incursions are targeted, since they are the only semi-profitable things left in high sec left).
So why the shock?
Much of the player base has already recognized this (note the ACU and PCU), and demonstrated their opinion with their wallets. Naturally, the propagandists will be out in full force to outshout and even censor this truth in minutes. But even after they get this post removed, the truth will remain: the amount of people willing to put up with this is dwindling, and CCP is in deep trouble, whether they recognize it or not.
This guy gets it. Sky is falling, damage estimate to follow. Proof that CCP is out to get me personally. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
23577
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 11:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
Doomsdale Little wrote:This guy gets it. The problem is that he gets it wrong.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
2087
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 11:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:[...]
So .. what else changed to negate that? Or am I misunderstanding something? Nah. All of what you say is correct; all of what the OP says is not. Your GÇ£misunderstandingGÇ¥ comes from the OP not being entirely honest about his capabilities. If you have perfect refining skills, you get the same amount of minerals out of the ore as you always did (in fact, you can get more now if you're willing to put some extra effort in). The OP just doesn't have perfect refining skills in spite of trying to claim them as such.
Thanks for clearing this up. So as I understand it, it is now harder, as in more skill points needed (and maybe implants) to achieve the best possible refining rate. In my opinion that makes those skills more useful, even. |
Lan Wang
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
53
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Posted - 2014.07.31 11:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:I do not have the time to commit to running around null sec fighting for space. Nor do I like that play style in eve. I did my time back in 06 - 09 experiencing that portion of the game. CCP has effectively changed the system to much and done so by replacing skills to be less effective than before. In the past when ever this happened with any other portion of the game it was either a necessary balance change or skill points were refunded. Why not now? Especially considered the market has taken years to stabilize to where it was at pre cruis.
you know not all of null is sov or is null not an option because you cant really afk mine? EVEALON Creative --áLogo Design | Killboard Banners | -áWeb Design | Website Graphics -á
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1046
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 11:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
Must say I made a lot of money out of reprocessing implants for a while after Crius. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
3959
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 11:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:Btw, as someone who doesn't do asteroid mining, I am curious: Why is mining not worth it anymore? I was under the impression that the refining changes reduced the mineral amount coming from refining mission loot, while in case of mined ore there was a compensating change for that. This would mean, if everything else stayed the same, that the total supply of minerals went down, while mining still nets about the same amount of minerals. This seems a change in favor of mining.
So .. what else changed to negate that? Or am I misunderstanding something? Nope, you're right there more or less. To make it even better, miners don;t even need to refine anymore. Compressed ore sells at a higher price than it ever would under the old system, so all you need is an offline tower and a compression array to turn on once in a while.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
3959
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 11:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: mining was (pre-Crius), still a marginally a profitable occupation, if you did not mind the cartel funded griefers like CODE.
Now, it is garbage, like most other things in high sec. Dinsdale. Does it not seem perculir to you that you say this, yet highsec mining is now more profitable than it was pre-Critus? Seriously, go do the math. It's way up. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Xylem Viliana
Protomonolithic
202
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Posted - 2014.07.31 11:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
you guys keep making me link this with this kind of complaining nonconstructive moaning
HTFU
Now please post something more constructive so I can link something different next time. |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2448
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 12:03:00 -
[40] - Quote
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:Tippia wrote:Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:[...]
So .. what else changed to negate that? Or am I misunderstanding something? Nah. All of what you say is correct; all of what the OP says is not. Your GÇ£misunderstandingGÇ¥ comes from the OP not being entirely honest about his capabilities. If you have perfect refining skills, you get the same amount of minerals out of the ore as you always did (in fact, you can get more now if you're willing to put some extra effort in). The OP just doesn't have perfect refining skills in spite of trying to claim them as such. Thanks for clearing this up. So as I understand it, it is now harder, as in more skill points needed (and maybe implants) to achieve the best possible refining rate. In my opinion that makes those skills more useful, even.
Yes.
Prior to Crius, in Hisec, at a 50% base station (i.e. most of them), you could get 100% yield with the following skills:
Refining - L5 Refinery Efficency - L3 [Ore] Processing - L4
Now, you need the following
Refining 5 Refinery Efficiency 5 (NOTE -- Was renamed ... but like my N-Type Adaptive Nano Membranes, I'm still gonna call it that) [Ore] Processing 5 Cybernetics 5 (For the 4% Refining implant)
Looking at a dead-new rookie (EVE Mon "Create Character File" option), and the hisec ores (Veld, Scord, Plag, Omber, Kernite, Pyrox)
OLD skills = 18 days (well, 17 and change) NEW skills = 89 days (88 and change)
This is ignoring the fact that you can easily put +3s in, which shaves off 11 days, 14 hours, 15 minutes (of which, about 1 hour 45 minutes is Cybernetics 1-3 ... which are prereqs for the +3s anyway).
Difference -- 60 to 70 days to be "perfect" now. And it's not really like miners are going to be torn between "train mining skills" and "train something else" (because they don't tank in the first place ...)
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
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Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
604
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 13:07:00 -
[41] - Quote
OP forgot EVE rule no.1 if you trained more then a week for something CCP will change it.
Hence one should find "Fluff" reason to enjoy the game or something CCP can't break. I, as an example, adore this amazing amarr hoods and CCP will never take this hood from me. "What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what." --áAaron Birch |
Victor Andall
691
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 13:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
I trained Missiles once but now I don't use them anymore. Please refund me, CCP. I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do? |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1323
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 13:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote: TL;DR: Mining is not only boring now, but extremely unprofitable, unless you move to null.
Wait, this is a new thing?
(PS - You can access NullSec ores just 1jump from HiSec. If you're smart and adventurous you can figure out how!)
Epic Space Cat |
Chad Ramsbottom
University of Caille Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 13:51:00 -
[44] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:Anyways cruis was to game changing and maybe eve will struggle on. But you guys are right I am leaving. Watching its birth in 03 to the new player hating community in 14 is saddening. Thanks for the 11 years CCP.
Guys, EVE is dying! This one super important guy can't figure his **** out so EVE is dying! This guys profit margin went down a little bit so EVE is dying. He can't make enough in High-sec without a POS than he can in null so EVE is dying.
RIP in peace EVE, DM was the glue holding you together but he's gone now
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
7417
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 13:54:00 -
[45] - Quote
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:OP forgot EVE rule no.1 if you trained more then a week for something CCP will change it.
Hence one should find "Fluff" reason to enjoy the game or something CCP can't break. I, as an example, adore this amazing amarr hoods and CCP will never take this hood from me.
Next patch, Hoods get nerfed. Bet you 5 bucks .
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
284
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 13:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:OP forgot EVE rule no.1 if you trained more then a week for something CCP will change it.
Hence one should find "Fluff" reason to enjoy the game or something CCP can't break. I, as an example, adore this amazing amarr hoods and CCP will never take this hood from me. Next patch, Hoods get nerfed. Bet you 5 bucks .
I heard they're making all shades and glasses into contact lenses in Hyperion. |
RoAnnon
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
401
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 14:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
Zero Sum Gain wrote:I fully expect CCP executives to empty all the accounts they can one day and flee the country.
I'd expect they're more apt to buy the country and kick everyone else out. They seem to like the climate.
So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter. |
Studio Ghibli
Starstuff Industrial Rim Worlds Protectorate
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 20:14:00 -
[48] - Quote
OP,
Here is a constructive option.
Move to Providence null-sec. Receive the null-sec mining/industrial benefit.
I live there. :) |
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4235
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 20:39:00 -
[49] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:Seeing as the changes to mining and industry are essentially completely game changing numbers wise. Why do we not have the option to refund the skill points invested in them. It is one thing to not do your research and train skills, at least that is avoidable. But when CCP takes the game in a new direction altering that aspect of the game. It isn't exactly foreseeable nor always desirable. With the new changes my isk an hour from mining have gone down tremendously. The time I put in to have what was perfect refining are gone. It is now more profitable with level 4 in all reprocessing ores and refine eff 5 to simply sell the ore even at a station with 0% tax. Null sec has finally won the war on mining in high sec, and you know, they should make more because 0.0 is "dangerous". Depending on where you are or what can happen. But that doesn't mean CCP should have made it that much more profitable to now either get your own station or move to null. Now I can hardly make 20 mill in an hour and a half with perfect orca boosts. Which is insane considering I was making almost 35 million isk an hour before cruis. There is also no reason to ever risk flying a hulk in hi security space. The time it takes to pay off the thing makes it illogical to fly.
I'm sure people will quote other game changes in the past as justification for making people stick out or move on with the new changes. But when you consider I have the equivalent of every learning skill at 5, in mining skill points. And can make more isk an hour blitzing level 3's for SOE, well any corp. Why should the reward be so low for so much time invested? Also I had over 100% refine before the cruis changes. And I know they boosted the mineral reprocessing amounts. But CCP could have at least gave me the option of having what is now perfect instead of forcing me to train 4 months of level 5 industry skills and use an implant slot just to get back to the isk and refine equivalent of before.
I am not disagreeing with CCP's mind set to change industry to improve it in the long run. I just no longer wish to be forced to use a remap and go back to skills that for years were considered perfect for high sec space. Just to see a few more mill an hour return. Or they could have at least done like they did with battle cruisers and let me have equal returns for my skill point investment. Either way I feel the changes are altering enough to merit the option of redirecting my skill points. Also because if I have the option to shoot red boxes or to shoot stationary gray boxes. I will hands down always choose to shoot the more profitable one. Especially when it is now 3-4x the isk an hour.
TL;DR: Mining is not only boring now, but extremely unprofitable, unless you move to null.
Thank you for reading, what is your opinion? Should I adapt or die, or will this almost 7 million skill point deficit be stuck on my character.
Please die, biomass and unsub. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
698
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 21:23:00 -
[50] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Digital Messiah wrote:This community like almost all others has become so toxic. No one will take a look at how changes effect balance in the game. So far the only thing any one has said is can I have your stuff, and adapt or die. Looking back I now don't see why I spent countless hours trying to convince CCP to balance systems such as drones or hybrids. The work I put into spreadsheets and balance discussions mean nothing today. Perhaps I have bitter vet syndrome or maybe I just don't like seeing the league of legends community get likes because the only thing that is considered cool and enjoyable is being negative on the forum or forced pvp on players. Anyways cruis was to game changing and maybe eve will struggle on. But you guys are right I am leaving. Watching its birth in 03 to the new player hating community in 14 is saddening. Thanks for the 11 years CCP. No you can not have my things, you will just let them sit in hanger while you troll general discussion for likes from people you don't know so you can impress other people who don't know or care who you are.
To James 315 who just ganked me in under 15 seconds in high security space. You are part of the problem. And killing me for having an opinion is childish. Even more so is the griefing which you continue to call fair and balanced play. Enjoy moving to 0.0 guys, im sure helping to pay someones mortgage and the on going and never resolved issue of RMT is going to be fun. Watching SWG die the same fate and knowing the people who did only play for irl funds. I can see EVE heading down the same path.
Congratulations btw on removing someone who has helped countless new players and strived to make the game better finally give up. Enjoy throwing sand. TL;DR - I'm quitting because my spreadsheets are worthless now & a big meanie ganked me. Also something about the Dinsdale nullsec RMT cartel bandwagon. BTW, thanks for invoking my name in a thread I had not even posted in. You guys clearly have as much fixation with me as I do with fighting you.
Ain't about you Jayne. It's about what they need.
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Angeal MacNova
LankTech Masters of Flying Objects
130
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 22:48:00 -
[51] - Quote
Become toxic? Most people on here have always been toxic for as long as I can remember. Can I have your stuff? I qualify for two reasons.
1. I don't troll the forums. I'm one of the few people who will actually engage in an intellectual conversation.
2. It won't sit in station. Whatever I can't use directly, its isk value I can use. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1051
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 00:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
RoAnnon wrote:Zero Sum Gain wrote:I fully expect CCP executives to empty all the accounts they can one day and flee the country. I'd expect they're more apt to buy the country and kick everyone else out. They seem to like the climate.
Iceland has a population of 320,000
Sell the country to China or Japan or something for 300 trillion or so and that gives everyone a million each to move to the Bahamas or somewhere with a warmer climate. |
45thtiger 0109
AL3XAND3R.
83
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 01:09:00 -
[53] - Quote
Digital Messiah wrote:Seeing as the changes to mining and industry are essentially completely game changing numbers wise. Why do we not have the option to refund the skill points invested in them. It is one thing to not do your research and train skills, at least that is avoidable. But when CCP takes the game in a new direction altering that aspect of the game. It isn't exactly foreseeable nor always desirable. With the new changes my isk an hour from mining have gone down tremendously. The time I put in to have what was perfect refining are gone. It is now more profitable with level 4 in all reprocessing ores and refine eff 5 to simply sell the ore even at a station with 0% tax. Null sec has finally won the war on mining in high sec, and you know, they should make more because 0.0 is "dangerous". Depending on where you are or what can happen. But that doesn't mean CCP should have made it that much more profitable to now either get your own station or move to null. Now I can hardly make 20 mill in an hour and a half with perfect orca boosts. Which is insane considering I was making almost 35 million isk an hour before cruis. There is also no reason to ever risk flying a hulk in hi security space. The time it takes to pay off the thing makes it illogical to fly.
I'm sure people will quote other game changes in the past as justification for making people stick out or move on with the new changes. But when you consider I have the equivalent of every learning skill at 5, in mining skill points. And can make more isk an hour blitzing level 3's for SOE, well any corp. Why should the reward be so low for so much time invested? Also I had over 100% refine before the cruis changes. And I know they boosted the mineral reprocessing amounts. But CCP could have at least gave me the option of having what is now perfect instead of forcing me to train 4 months of level 5 industry skills and use an implant slot just to get back to the isk and refine equivalent of before.
I am not disagreeing with CCP's mind set to change industry to improve it in the long run. I just no longer wish to be forced to use a remap and go back to skills that for years were considered perfect for high sec space. Just to see a few more mill an hour return. Or they could have at least done like they did with battle cruisers and let me have equal returns for my skill point investment. Either way I feel the changes are altering enough to merit the option of redirecting my skill points. Also because if I have the option to shoot red boxes or to shoot stationary gray boxes. I will hands down always choose to shoot the more profitable one. Especially when it is now 3-4x the isk an hour.
TL;DR: Mining is not only boring now, but extremely unprofitable, unless you move to null.
Thank you for reading, what is your opinion? Should I adapt or die, or will this almost 7 million skill point deficit be stuck on my character.
No CCP will not give your skill points back to anyone.
CCP has the rights to change the game content at their discretion.
CCP did mention this in the dev blogs what their plans for Cyrus was going to be.
And yes why not go to Low sec space if you don't want to go to 0.0
And as I always say EvE is working as Intended
Thread Locked By The ISD
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Remiel Pollard
The Vigilance Institute
4053
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 01:10:00 -
[54] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The null sec cartel's completely control CCP, and Eve. Their well-documented goal is to destroy high sec, of which mining was (pre-Crius), still a marginally a profitable occupation, if you did not mind the cartel funded griefers like CODE.
Now, it is garbage, like most other things in high sec. (BTW, level 4's and Incursions are targeted, since they are the only semi-profitable things left in high sec left).
So why the shock?
Much of the player base has already recognized this (note the ACU and PCU), and demonstrated their opinion with their wallets. Naturally, the propagandists will be out in full force to outshout and even censor this truth in minutes. But even after they get this post removed, the truth will remain: the amount of people willing to put up with this is dwindling, and CCP is in deep trouble, whether they recognize it or not.
Alex Jones makes more sense than you. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Hiply Rustic
A Private Space Venture
109
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Posted - 2014.08.01 01:58:00 -
[55] - Quote
Ton'Ka Katsu wrote:so this patch did what code was trying to do? break the miners?
also guys without miners no minerals come in, then nothing gets built, then we can no pvp. do we really want the miners to quit?
No, I think it's more a question of where it gets done and who profits from that change then whether or not mining needs to continue. Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the stong-willied need apply.
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TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
837
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 02:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I move that we make a violation of the forum rules to ask for skill refunds.
I'll see this and raise you to make it a violation to ask refunds for anything in-game. ANYTHING! My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
546
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Posted - 2014.08.01 03:39:00 -
[57] - Quote
Victor Andall wrote:I trained Missiles once but now I don't use them anymore. Please refund me, CCP. This. I want all of muh SP back that I trained to run perma-MWD Drakes...and Hurricanes...and everything else that ever got nerfed. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12570
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 04:25:00 -
[58] - Quote
Mr Wonka says Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Lucian Trask
Outer Ring Exploration
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 18:00:00 -
[59] - Quote
My understanding of it was. Your refining % might have gone down, but the ore's yield has gone up. So regardless of what you refining % was prior to the change, you will get the same amount of minerals now as the increased ores yield had gone up to compensate ?
If anything its a buff to you as if you were perfect refining before you the you will get the same amount of minerals as before the change, but because old perfect is no longer perfect you can continue to train a few other skills to get more minerals than you did before. Think of it as raising the level cap. Your no worst off now... but with more training you can be better off than prior change?
Correct me if im wrong on this though.
Valar Morghulis, Valar Dohaeris |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2454
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 18:40:00 -
[60] - Quote
Lucian Trask wrote:My understanding of it was. Your refining % might have gone down, but the ore's yield has gone up. So regardless of what you refining % was prior to the change, you will get the same amount of minerals now as the increased ores yield had gone up to compensate ?
If anything its a buff to you as if you were perfect refining before you the you will get the same amount of minerals as before the change, but because old perfect is no longer perfect you can continue to train a few other skills to get more minerals than you did before. Think of it as raising the level cap. Your no worst off now... but with more training you can be better off than prior change?
A diablo player explained it to me, and did so in the following way... Its like diablo got his hp buffed by 10%, but you also got you damage out put buffed by 10% so their is no difference you wont notice any change - however the damage cap point has also been raised by 15% on top of that so - with a bit of work you can raise your damage 15% higher and be better off that before the change.
The guy telling me how the change effects refining could have been talking nonsense though, he tends to do that from time to time. so correct me if im wrong.
In order to get the equivalent of "100% refine" these days, you need all the skills to 5, as well as the 4% implant. Prior to this, you only needed 5/4/3 (or thereabouts) to get "100%". So, if you had perfect before, you won't necessarily have "perfect" (or, rather, 72.4% in an NPC station) now.
However, yes, there are facilities now that will allow you to go beyond this 72.4% yield. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
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