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Chil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.08.01 16:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Currently as we progress & earn skill points we upgrade clones to suit. After a few years this starts to be come more expensive, but initially income also rises to cover this. However, after about 5-6 years the replacement costs start to outstrip income.
So, two part proposal. 1) Retain the lower tier upgrade costs at their present values, but rethink the costs at 100M SP and up.
2) Using the Bounty system look at reducing the replacement cost resulting from podding based on the ship last flown. Maybe 1-2% for frigates up to around 60% for smaller caps.
Now the why: Currently there is a risk-reward balance for some activities, simply don't fly what you can't afford to replace. So, as an older player maybe a cruiser is a suitable vessel for lowsec, and the potential income balances out. BUT, not when clones cost more than the ship (ignoring implants, we have jump clones to cover that).
Reducing the costs may mean that more older players (who after 5-10 years may well have less time to earn isk) are more likely to head out to lowsec & jump into smaller ships for wardecs.
Couple of counter points (and their counter!) But you shouldn't lose too many pods: fine reducing the prices won't affect the amount of isk in game.
But you ought to be earning shed-loads of isk by ...... : Maybe, but with limited play time affording the higher fixed costs becomes harder; if you play more you may lose more so balance is still maintained.
Open for abuse with bounties: OK, maybe; would adding the bounty to the replacement cost resolve this?
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Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
268
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Posted - 2014.08.01 16:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hmm, the clone insurance discussion has come up quite a bit, but your post got me thinking, always felt there was something off.
I basically think the longer you play the cheaper the insurance should be. But that would mean new players could not afford it while vets get just disposable clones. But I think the problem is that upgrade and perceived insurance are one and the same thing. My twist on this would be:
Clone upgrade:
Clone upgrade installes a new genetic imprint of the maximum capabilities a clone can handle. This is a one time cost, x5 the current price (maybe x10).
Clone insurance:
Reoccuring insurance for lost clones. Current price x.75. Each DT, after insurance has been payed, the price for the clone insurance servicve will drop 2% to a minimum of 20%.
This means the one time upgrade is 'an investment'. The acutal use of the service is 'on demand' and gets cheaper with less usage for the 'casual old timer', but stays hefty (a little less then before) for the most active.
Problem sovled ? Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2851
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Posted - 2014.08.01 16:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Chil wrote:
2) Using the Bounty system look at reducing the replacement cost resulting from podding based on the ship last flown. Maybe 1-2% for frigates up to around 60% for smaller caps.
60% of the cost of a cap? So...best part of two BILLION isk if your dread goes down and your pod follows it?
Did you get your example shiptypes the wrong way around or something? |
Chil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.08.01 19:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
No, of the clone cost. Although it would cut the number of super caps!
Had also considered the multiplier, but what hard limit do you place on the clone cost? |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2851
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Posted - 2014.08.01 19:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Chil wrote:No, of the clone cost. Although it would cut the number of super caps!
Had also considered the multiplier, but what hard limit do you place on the clone cost?
Well, it'd make it very, very hard to justify actually flying a battleship or above, or undocking a cap for anything that wasn't an unopposed pos shot. Isn't losing 3b for the hull and fittings enough, without another 2b on top of that for the pod, even before implants? |
Chil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.08.01 20:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Chil wrote:No, of the clone cost. Although it would cut the number of super caps!
Had also considered the multiplier, but what hard limit do you place on the clone cost? Well, it'd make it very, very hard to justify actually flying a battleship or above, or undocking a cap for anything that wasn't an unopposed pos shot. Isn't losing 3b for the hull and fittings enough, without another 2b on top of that for the pod, even before implants?
How does a percentage of the existing clone cost (based on ship lost) get to be billions? |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
279
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Posted - 2014.08.01 20:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Chil wrote:No, of the clone cost. Although it would cut the number of super caps!
Had also considered the multiplier, but what hard limit do you place on the clone cost? Well, it'd make it very, very hard to justify actually flying a battleship or above, or undocking a cap for anything that wasn't an unopposed pos shot. Isn't losing 3b for the hull and fittings enough, without another 2b on top of that for the pod, even before implants?
I would agree with you on this. I think the OP has his idea backwards where the clone on a frig would cost 60%, and a cap would be 1-2% (Note I am not agreeing with the OP on the actual percent numbers, just saying he has the whole idea backwards). If it was this way, then the 100 mil SP character could fly a frig, and have his frig be the most expensive part of the ship, instead of his medical clone. The more SP you have, the higher the percentage would be for all ships. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2851
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Posted - 2014.08.01 20:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Chil wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Chil wrote:No, of the clone cost. Although it would cut the number of super caps!
Had also considered the multiplier, but what hard limit do you place on the clone cost? Well, it'd make it very, very hard to justify actually flying a battleship or above, or undocking a cap for anything that wasn't an unopposed pos shot. Isn't losing 3b for the hull and fittings enough, without another 2b on top of that for the pod, even before implants? How does a percentage of the existing clone cost (based on ship lost) get to be billions?
...Your suggestion is for it to be a percentage of the cost of the ship hull? That's how it reads anyway, and 60% of the cost of a dread hull is 2b+... |
Chil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2014.08.01 22:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
OK, so the numbers need some tweaking. But do we agree that making the clone replacement (due to loss) cheaper and related to the type of ship flown (as the number of SP actually needed varies)?
Currently, the 100M SP clone is 20M isk ish?
So, T1 frigate, equipped with T1 modules (good enough for lowsec) comes in at about 1-2M isk. How much should a replacement clone be? Full amount or something in line with the hull cost?
As we head up to BS and above, equipped hulls are 200 M isk and up. At that point 20M isk doesn't look as large a number. Note, I'm not suggesting increasing the clone cost for if podded when losing a cap ship (apologies if I wasn't clear enough). |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2851
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Posted - 2014.08.01 22:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cheaper clones, sure, but I don't like the idea of tying them to ship sizes. If you lose an expensive ship, you're already out a lot of ISK, why ramp the cost up even more by massively increasing the clone costs as well?
if the clone costs never go above what they are currently, you just pay less for smaller ships, it makes a little more sense I suppose. I'm still not sure it's an improvement though. |
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Chil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2014.08.02 09:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
So, you consider it a sensible risk to enter lowsec/null in an affordable frigate and 14M and up of clone? If the rewards are higher then yes, it's sensible or if replacement clones were cheaper.
Given it's the only fixed cost in game (skills can be saved for or not trained) it's the only one that adversely effects the veterans. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
272
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Posted - 2014.08.02 11:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sad, noone replied to my view of the matter... was it so bad ?! Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Chil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2014.08.04 09:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Not a bad idea, and with the max level clone you'd only have to lose 16 pods to break even (with 5 times current cost). Problem is that still comes out at about 75M (OK we're 5-10 years off anyone needing one of those clones but makes sense to think ahead).
I was trying to detach upgrade & replacement costs so we could tinker with replacement costs without (necessarily) messing with the upgrade.
Both ideas work, just need the numbers tinkering with. Both ideas also avoid messing with the market/reward side of balance too so should be easier to assess. |
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