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Rain6637
Team Evil
15561
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Posted - 2014.08.04 11:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm using freighters and jump freighters as a baseline in this suggestion.
Carriers can be split into T2 versions by DPS and Logistics. I also think T1 carriers should lose their jump drives. they're just too cheap for what they do. This goes for dreads as well.
Freighters have a mass and build cost comparable to carriers. similarly, T1 carriers and dreads would need to use gates. bar them from highsec, of course. only their T2 versions would have jump drives, and they would be:
T2 Logistics carrier: essentially the same as the current triage carrier, except it does not have the drone bonuses of...
...T2 DPS carrier: no logistics bonuses, is allowed to use drones while "triaged". ..."triage" gives a local rep and drone bonus instead (the current levels of drone DPS only occurs when the high slot module is activated... perhaps change the name to reflect an increase in tank. too bad bastion is already taken).
T1 carrier and dreads remain unchanged except for losing a jump drive. maybe do something with the number of drones to help server load.
make the T2 cost as much as jump freighters.
also: kaalakiota chimera... core complexion nid... carthum archon HHHNNNGGG President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
868
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Posted - 2014.08.04 11:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
i agree that T1 carriers can do far too much for a basic capital dps model ship..
-T1 carrier .. just a fighter dps basic model - supercarriers made into its own skill and reduce their HP somewhat and also make it a dps basic model
- add T2 variants for carriers and supercarriers - command variant - logistic variant Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
LT Alter
Ouroboros Research and Development
114
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Posted - 2014.08.04 11:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
We could see something along these lines with the capital rebalance pass coming up in the next year or so. Though I don't totally agree with your distinctions on the variant's, I just felt it worth mentioning about the capital rebalance pass. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15561
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Posted - 2014.08.04 12:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
o/
this was something I found myself thinking about in mittenz' latest traffic control, where he mentions the DPS+healer issue. it struck me as two distinct T2 roles that could be split. that leaves the task of distinguishing the T2 from the T1, and the jump drive came to mind, compared to freighters and JFs, a capital with a T1 and T2 version.
a split also achieves an increased need for pilots, and more SP, but capsuleers are used to the idea of choices and they say it's a good thing.
server load is also helped by reducing drones on the field.
anyway. this idea was buried in the comments of a traffic control article, and i wanted to un-bury it by placing it here. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2855
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Posted - 2014.08.04 12:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
...Well, that's one way to ensure no-one outside of the big blocs uses caps again... |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15563
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 12:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
because of cost? or SP? lowly logisticians find ways to afford jump freighters, and it's one of those ships you only need one of per character... right? President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
2857
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 13:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:because of cost? or SP? lowly logisticians find ways to afford jump freighters, and it's one of those ships you only need one of per character... right?
...isn't independent cap ownership already a bad idea?
Jump Freighters don't lock themselves in place for five minutes every time you try to use them. Nor are they used in their hundreds in sov fights. Nor are they used as a suicide ship to take out hostile supercaps.
Isn't the prevailing opinion that dreads are pretty well balanced anyway? They have their roles, they have their counters, they have their drawbacks. I assume you would be MASSIVELY buffing these things, or would you rather just see structures killed in subcaps?
And yes, doubling the cost of caps and massivley spiking the SP requirements is going to put them well out of the reach of groups who aren't in the big blocs. JFs don't compare, you don't need to drop multiples of them to do what you need.
Also, surely we want to see caps used more, so more of them die, not see them limited to unopposed structure bashing/repping? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15564
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Posted - 2014.08.04 13:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
actually this suggestion does not include buffing carriers and dreads. basically just labeling them T2 and treating them more like jump freighters than regular, non-jumping freighters. T1 carriers and dreads can still be projected, but they require bridges. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2458
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 14:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote: T1 carriers and dreads can still be projected, but they require bridges.
oh, so now to move a carrier, I need a titan.
That's pants-on-head stupid. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15564
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Posted - 2014.08.04 14:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
a T1 carrier worth just 1.2 bil base, yeah (...or a gate, like freighters). the main premise of a T2 designation is that the current T1 version is OP.
I kinda like that phrase. can i use it (you know the one... eh? eh?). President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
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Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
943
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Posted - 2014.08.04 14:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
I only have one issue with Carriers, and that is the refitting bay, I think Carriers on a role by role basis are very well balanced. They don't do great DPS unless you fit for it (no reps no tank) if you fit for reps you lose tank and dps, if you fit to tank you lose repping power and dps.
The problem is that when you get even just 2 carriers they can refit with each other to maximize whatever they need to on the fly. When you get 200 doing this you can see how the refit benefits can give the illusion of a ship being OP.
I think removing the refit bay from Carriers would go a long long way to changing how, when and why they are used.
Before anyone says "what about living out of a carrier in NS"....buy a Mobile Depot Unit for refitting.
(Note this does not mean carriers would no longer be able to move ships, it just a removal of the option to refit in space.)
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Rain6637
Team Evil
15564
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Posted - 2014.08.04 14:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
that's a good point. that refit is responsible for an impression that carriers are OP. however. capital high- and low slot modules are too big to carry around and turn a tanky logistics carrier into a DCU-having drone platform, or the other way around, on the fly. their role is mostly locked in when they undock. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
943
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Posted - 2014.08.04 14:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:that's a good point. that refit is responsible for an impression that carriers are OP. however. capital high- and low slot modules are too big to carry around and turn a tanky logistics carrier into a DCU-having drone platform, or the other way around, on the fly. their role is mostly locked in when they undock.
Eh there are a lot of modules that can be exchanged that take up a very very tiny amount of space comparatively. Pretty much every non-Cap module can be replaced depending on what the role is, which means increased drone damage and application (DDA's and Omni's), increased remote rep ability (cap stability modules) or increased tank (Armor or shield resists).
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Rain6637
Team Evil
15565
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Posted - 2014.08.04 15:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
true, true. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
575
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 16:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Jump Freighters don't lock themselves in place for five minutes every time you try to use them. Nor are they used in their hundreds in sov fights. Nor are they used as a suicide ship to take out hostile supercaps.
Isn't the prevailing opinion that dreads are pretty well balanced anyway? They have their roles, they have their counters, they have their drawbacks. I assume you would be MASSIVELY buffing these things, or would you rather just see structures killed in subcaps?
And yes, doubling the cost of caps and massivley spiking the SP requirements is going to put them well out of the reach of groups who aren't in the big blocs. JFs don't compare, you don't need to drop multiples of them to do what you need.
Also, surely we want to see caps used more, so more of them die, not see them limited to unopposed structure bashing/repping? So leave carriers as T1 so the SP requirements stay the same and split the roles into two T1 hulls. Also, what if taking sov didn't require grinding silly amounts of HP and what HP did have to ground couldn't be ground with capitals? Something like this guy's idea. |
Elusive Panda
Gendry's Leech Nerfed Alliance Go Away
58
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Posted - 2014.08.04 16:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:
The problem is that when you get even just 2 carriers they can refit with each other to maximize whatever they need to on the fly. When you get 200 doing this you can see how the refit benefits can give the illusion of a ship being OP.
I think removing the refit bay from Carriers would go a long long way to changing how, when and why they are used.
I like this idea, but maybe instead of removing the refit bay, just make it so Carrier are incapable of using a refit bay? That way you still offer the service, but cannot use it yourself. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
944
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 17:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Elusive Panda wrote:Mario Putzo wrote:
The problem is that when you get even just 2 carriers they can refit with each other to maximize whatever they need to on the fly. When you get 200 doing this you can see how the refit benefits can give the illusion of a ship being OP.
I think removing the refit bay from Carriers would go a long long way to changing how, when and why they are used.
I like this idea, but maybe instead of removing the refit bay, just make it so Carrier are incapable of using a refit bay? That way you still offer the service, but cannot use it yourself.
I don't think there is really a need for a refit service from ships to be honest. If you need to refit in space, use an MDU imo. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15565
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 17:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
hey, I was ok with the overlap of mobile depots and my baby carrier (orca)... but saying it shouldn't have a refitting service at all is too far. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 18:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
T2 carriers sounds interesting. |
Catherine Laartii
Providence Guard Templis CALSF
254
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Posted - 2014.08.04 18:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Rain6637 wrote:because of cost? or SP? lowly logisticians find ways to afford jump freighters, and it's one of those ships you only need one of per character... right?
...isn't independent cap ownership already a bad idea? Jump Freighters don't lock themselves in place for five minutes every time you try to use them. Nor are they used in their hundreds in sov fights. Nor are they used as a suicide ship to take out hostile supercaps. Isn't the prevailing opinion that dreads are pretty well balanced anyway? They have their roles, they have their counters, they have their drawbacks. I assume you would be MASSIVELY buffing these things, or would you rather just see structures killed in subcaps? And yes, doubling the cost of caps and massivley spiking the SP requirements is going to put them well out of the reach of groups who aren't in the big blocs. JFs don't compare, you don't need to drop multiples of them to do what you need. Also, surely we want to see caps used more, so more of them die, not see them limited to unopposed structure bashing/repping?
It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to make t2 dreads that focus on doing good amounts of (comparably) well-applied dps unsieged, or reversing the role and making the t2 one the crazy siege machine...which actually make a lot of sense since it would have stronger defenses. There's a lot of room for this idea to work, and it definitely makes a lot of sense for carriers; logi spider tanking is currently one of the largest issues facing the game right now; an idea was made earlier about making it so logi is unable to rep people with an aggression timer; I think it would make sense to do that with the teal engagement timer thing since that would allow for use of logistics within a pve setting. |
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
28
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Posted - 2014.08.04 22:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Harvey James wrote: - supercarriers made into its own skill and reduce their HP somewhat and also make it a dps basic model
Would make the Revenant an even rarer sight than it already is... Nobody would fly a super carrier that required 2 SC books, considering that their prices would be massive.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1458
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 22:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote: I don't think there is really a need for a refit service from ships to be honest. If you need to refit in space, use an MDU imo.
Please refit a fleet of 250 from MDU's. That's the need. However if it was limited to subcaps only I don't think it would be a huge issue.
Caps & Super Caps, supers especially, still need some way to refit in space, but if they had to use an MDU you wouldn't be refitting a fleet of 250 Caps while they are in a blob due to the space requirements for MDU's. But carrying an MDU (or five) wouldn't be a huge issue for most Caps with large cargo bays.
Alternative options would be the Rorqual being made into a Capital Logistics Ship, with the ability to bridge industrial ships, and a Refit service that Caps & Super Caps would use. It would be a significant role change for it, but it would give it a unique place in the meta as well as bringing them along on cap fights so the titans can refit on grid. Give them some other personal abilities as well, and you actually have the Rorqual being useful & at risk.
Would upset miners a bit, but also means that the mining skill path leads to a ship that is useful in large cap fights, without having to skill any specific DPS capitals. Which is a nice thing. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
946
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 23:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Mario Putzo wrote: I don't think there is really a need for a refit service from ships to be honest. If you need to refit in space, use an MDU imo.
Please refit a fleet of 250 from MDU's. That's the need. However if it was limited to subcaps only I don't think it would be a huge issue. Caps & Super Caps, supers especially, still need some way to refit in space, but if they had to use an MDU you wouldn't be refitting a fleet of 250 Caps while they are in a blob due to the space requirements for MDU's. But carrying an MDU (or five) wouldn't be a huge issue for most Caps with large cargo bays. Alternative options would be the Rorqual being made into a Capital Logistics Ship, with the ability to bridge industrial ships, and a Refit service that Caps & Super Caps would use. It would be a significant role change for it, but it would give it a unique place in the meta as well as bringing them along on cap fights so the titans can refit on grid. Give them some other personal abilities as well, and you actually have the Rorqual being useful & at risk. Would upset miners a bit, but also means that the mining skill path leads to a ship that is useful in large cap fights, without having to skill any specific DPS capitals. Which is a nice thing.
But that is just it, a fleet of 250 shouldn't just be able to refit on the fly, it is impractical, it should have some tediousness involved, and should be susceptible to interruption, especially on a field of battle. The fact there are ships in this game that facilitate this is seemingly unnecessary with the advent of the MDU. If you can not refit your whole fleet, that sucks but that is the risk you took undocking your ships and committing to battle.
I don't think making the Rorqual into a "mandatory" fleet ship makes any more sense than making a Titan or Super Carrier mandatory for a fleet. I think that there should be no refitting in space outside of using a POS or an MDU. It is an unnecessary ship bonus with the MDU as an option, and if it is logistically difficult to implement into a 250 man fleet good, you have 250 people coordination should be more difficult.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1461
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Posted - 2014.08.06 01:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tedium is a bad thing. No matter what the cause. If MDU's still work for Caps & Supers the Rorqual also wouldn't be 'mandatory'. It would just be a good addition for a cap fleet. But each Rorqual is one person not in a normal cap or super, so less DPS/Reps your fleet is bringing, which creates an interesting trade off, rather than the current where the refit ships are also your reps & DPS. |
beatlebutt
Hedion University Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:because of cost? or SP? lowly logisticians find ways to afford jump freighters, and it's one of those ships you only need one of per character... right?
...isn't independent cap ownership already a bad idea?
JF avoid fights because they aren't a combat ship. they go from station to station. I would like to see more T2 caps with comparable cost..but I don't think we kill normal carriers by taking out jump drives and making them use gates. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15575
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Posted - 2014.08.07 00:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
for sure. they're priced like dumb* T1 hulls, and if they're also prereq'd like one (without jump skills) I think they'd be quite popular as home defense
people won't like the thought of a 6B price tag, but that's part of the point... making the loss sting more.
*dumb in the sense of T1 without special T2 abilities. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Rain6637
Team Evil
20714
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 05:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
not bumping to toot my own horn. that would not be modest. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Maruk Ihnati
V I R I I Ineluctable.
31
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Posted - 2014.10.02 06:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
First, you should consider changing the name of the topic. T2 capitals is not what this is about and you might scare some support for this idea away.
I definitely agree with you. Split the logistical (moving ships) and combat of capitals so that moving ships won't become a even more tedious task with the current proposed jumping range and fatigue limitations.
CCP Veritas gives us Dojos, so that we can have pvp without the 95% of the time spending on logistics and finding a suitable target to engage, and now CCP gives us a harder time moving ships around.
Yes, power projection needs nerfing but why taking down supplying your alliance down with it? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
20714
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Posted - 2014.10.02 06:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
I think the topic still says what I want it to. I'd also like to preserve the un-edited status of the first post.
I meant Logistics in the sense of 'healer', and the role of material Logistics will still belong to the Jump Freighter. Especially after the jump changes, moving assembled ships via jump drive is a convenience not worth having. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1885
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Posted - 2014.10.02 07:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
Yeah let's put even more money in the pockets of moon holders. Great plan! +1 |
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