Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Paul Panala
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
183
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 15:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is more of a rant followed by some information. One of my pet peeves is when people do not understand the way math works related to ship resistances. They assume resistance numbers are added together, and anything less is the result of a stacking penalty. They also wronging assume diminishing returns. The simplest example is that 50% + 50% does not mean you have 100% making you invincible, or what about 60% + 60%??? Your ship recovers hit points from incoming fire? No.
If you reduce incoming damage by half (50% resist) and then reduce it by half again (another 50%), the total incoming damage is 25% of the original, or a 75% resistance. Another way to say this is that the ship can take 4 times the damage it could with 0% resist. That is simple enough to understand, but how do you calculate those numbers? How do you figure out T2 resists? Here is a simple explanation. This could be simplified into a complicated looking algebraic expression, but I am going to write this out in English in hopes more people can understand how it works.
First, instead of thinking about resistances, we need to think about incoming damage, the math is a lot easier that way. Just flip the number so a 25% resist is now 75% incoming damage (1.0 subtracted by resistance) Base thermal shield resist is 20%, so 1.0 - 0.2 = 0.8
Then find the inverse of that by taking 1 divided by 0.8. Or just type 0.8 on a calculator and press the 1/x button (even simple calculators should have that button). The answer is 1.25, or the ability to absorb 1.25 times the damage we normally could.
Next letGÇÖs do it again and figure out the same number for a T2 Adaptive Invulnerability Field. 30% turns into 0.7, the inverse is about 1.43.
Now multiply the two numbers. 1.25 * 1.43 is about 1.79. That number still means the same thing; it would now take almost 2 times the incoming damage to deal the same base damage. To convert it back to an Eve resistance percentage, just take the inverse, and flip. So the inverse of 1.79 is 0.56, flip it to 44%, which is the number the Eve client would show. No stacking penalty because you only have one mod on the ship.
Now letGÇÖs say it is a Caldari T2 ship. No problem, we just need to add in the 75% resistance to thermal damage (75% for primary and 50% for secondary). The inverse is 4. 4 multiplied by the base 1.25 number is 5, the inverse is 0.2, which flipped gives you the base resist of 80%. Add the invul and you get 1.25 * 4 * 1.43 = 7.15 which inverted and flipped is the 86% resistance you expect.
Adding the invul to get form 80% to 86% might seem like it did not help us much on thermal. Wrong, it helped a HUGE amount. Going back to the inverted incoming damage number. A base Cerb can take 5x incoming thermal damage. Add the invul (which appears to only give an extra 6%) and now the same Cerb can absorb over 7x the incoming damage. Toss on a DCUII and you are at 8.4!!
So while going from 75% to 90% on a resist might only seem like a 15% improvement, it is actually going from 4x damage to 10x damage, a 250% improvement! |
Paranoid Loyd
1145
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 15:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Thank you for the information. Your contribution is appreciated. "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Bloody Slave
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
132
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 16:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thanks God (and Gripen) I have EFT.
If your balls are hurt and bleeding don't sit in a pool full of piranhas (note to myself: don't complain in GD) |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
296
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 17:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Rather even than thinking in terms of incoming damage it may be more useful to think in terms of the way the game works behind the scenes - the Resists you see are the customer facing end of a system which is actually called Resonances.
Here's a bit more... |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4006
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 17:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Damage Resistance |
Atalia Madeveda
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 17:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Actually, you can get +100% resists on certain T2 haulers. You blow up if you take that damage type. |
Paul Panala
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
184
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 18:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
That post contains the typical misleading information I was try to educate people against. It blurs the distinction between a stacking penalty and the asymptotic nature the numbers are calculated. Stacking penalties are real. The other is just a misperception.
Stacking penalties effect a module's effectiveness based on the number of similar mod effecting the same attribute. In your example, you gave the correct stacking penalty values, but the math is ultamently wrong (or super confusing)
Quote: Module 0: 0% Module 1: (100% - 0%) * 55% * 1.000000000000 = +55% [Total EM Resist = 55%] Module 2: (100% - 55%) * 55% * 0.869119980800 = +21.51% [Total EM Resist = 76.51%] Module 3: (100% - 76.51%) * 55% * 0.570583143511= +7.37% [Total EM Resist = 83.88%] Module 4: (100% - 83.88%) * 55% * 0.282955154023 = +2.51% [Total EM Resist = 86.39%] Module 5: (100% - 86.39%) * 55% * 0.105992649743 = +0.79% [Total EM Resist = 87.18%]
For module 2, 55% * 0.869 is 48%, not 21.51%. If you add 55% and 48% you get 103%, you see the problem?
Reread my post and you will understand how the math really works. |
Paul Panala
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
184
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 18:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Atalia Madeveda wrote:Actually, you can get +100% resists on certain T2 haulers. You blow up if you take that damage type.
You can't get 100% resists on anything, the resistances are an asymptote so it isn't possible. It might be possible to get resistances up to 99.6%, which would round up to show 100% |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
516
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 18:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Paul Panala wrote:Atalia Madeveda wrote:Actually, you can get +100% resists on certain T2 haulers. You blow up if you take that damage type. You can't get 100% resists on anything, the resistances are an asymptote so it isn't possible. It might be possible to get resistances up to 99.6%, which would round up to show 100%
There is(/was?) a bug with deep space transports that allowed for over 100% resists. Due to the ship bonuses. Not sure if its been patched yet.
Screenie |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
212
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 18:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Paul Panala wrote:Atalia Madeveda wrote:Actually, you can get +100% resists on certain T2 haulers. You blow up if you take that damage type. You can't get 100% resists on anything, the resistances are an asymptote so it isn't possible. It might be possible to get resistances up to 99.6%, which would round up to show 100%
Nope, it actually went over 100% because of the overheat bonus on blockade runners. Taking any damage of that type caused one-shot of the vessel.
It's broken the same way as tracking is when you go to negative values; you get infinite tracking. |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
23680
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 18:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Paul Panala wrote:For module 2, 55% * 0.869 is 48%, not 21.51%. If you add 55% and 48% you get 103%, you see the problem?
Reread my post and you will understand how the math really works. Maybe you should re-read his post to understand how the math really works, because the numbers he provides are correct.
In fact, there is no misleading information in that post, so if you're trying to educate against it, you should probably stop. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
Paul Panala
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
185
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 19:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Paul Panala wrote:For module 2, 55% * 0.869 is 48%, not 21.51%. If you add 55% and 48% you get 103%, you see the problem?
Reread my post and you will understand how the math really works. Maybe you should re-read his post to understand how the math really works, because the numbers he provides are correct.
His math is not correct. Yes, his final numbers are correct, he probably got them from EFT, but his work is not correct. You cannot use his given formula to get to that answer. It is as if he said 3+4=10. Maybe 10 is the correct answer, but 3+4 is not the way you get to 10.
I really do not understand the value of chiming in without really looking at it. I gave a very detailed walk through that explains how to correctly calculate resistance values, if you took the time to read my OP you will see my information is correct. His little snip-it is nothing more than random information collected from different places put together to look like a formula, however, the formula does not work and cannot be used to calculate anything. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
23680
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 19:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Paul Panala wrote:His math is not correct. His maths is entirely correct GÇö you just didn't get what he was doing. If his maths is incorrect, then so is yours because (surprise!) it's the same maths. If you can't see this, you are in no position to GÇ£educateGÇ¥ anyone on the matter.
Quote:You cannot use his given formula to get to that answer. Yes you can.
He calculates how much each module adds to the total resist in absolute terms. He then adds these terms together to get the total resists percentage. It's a very simple method that demonstrates what happens every time you add an additional module. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
De'Veldrin
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
2743
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 19:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:Paul Panala wrote:Atalia Madeveda wrote:Actually, you can get +100% resists on certain T2 haulers. You blow up if you take that damage type. You can't get 100% resists on anything, the resistances are an asymptote so it isn't possible. It might be possible to get resistances up to 99.6%, which would round up to show 100% There is(/was?) a bug with deep space transports that allowed for over 100% resists. Due to the ship bonuses. Not sure if its been patched yet. Screenie
Yes, it was a bug. I had an ISD confirm that for me when I was discussing a fitting in the help channel. It had something to do with particular ship bonuses combining with the bonuses of certain worm holes yielding resists in excess of 100% De'Veldrin's Corallary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null. |
Paul Panala
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
185
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 19:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Paul Panala wrote:His math is not correct. His maths is entirely correct GÇö you just didn't get what he was doing. If his maths is incorrect, then so is yours because (surprise!) it's the same maths. Quote:You cannot use his given formula to get to that answer. Yes you can. He calculates how much each module adds to the total resist in absolute terms. He then adds these terms together to get the total resists percentage. It's a very simple method that demonstrates what happens every time you add an additional module.
Face-palming at this reply. Go get a calculator and punch in his formula, the numbers it returns will not match his answer.
Or maybe I am just silly and don't understand, then maybe you can explain how 21.51% was calculated using his formula? |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4007
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 19:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Paul Panala wrote:[quote=Tau Cabalander] Quote: Module 0: 0% Module 1: (100% - 0%) * 55% * 1.000000000000 = +55% [Total EM Resist = 55%] Module 2: (100% - 55%) * 55% * 0.869119980800 = +21.51% [Total EM Resist = 76.51%] Module 3: (100% - 76.51%) * 55% * 0.570583143511= +7.37% [Total EM Resist = 83.88%] Module 4: (100% - 83.88%) * 55% * 0.282955154023 = +2.51% [Total EM Resist = 86.39%] Module 5: (100% - 86.39%) * 55% * 0.105992649743 = +0.79% [Total EM Resist = 87.18%]
For module 2, 55% * 0.869 is 48%, not 21.51%. If you add 55% and 48% you get 103%, you see the problem? Reread my post and you will understand how the math really works. /sigh
Module 2 is worth: (1 - 0.55) difference from max * 0.55 module bonus * 0.869119980800 stacking penalty = 0.2151071952480000
Total resist: 0.55 from Module 1 + 0.2151071952480000 from Module 2 = 0.7651071952480000 |
Valeria Ghost
Viziam Amarr Empire
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 19:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Paul Panala wrote:Tippia wrote:Paul Panala wrote:His math is not correct. His maths is entirely correct GÇö you just didn't get what he was doing. If his maths is incorrect, then so is yours because (surprise!) it's the same maths. Quote:You cannot use his given formula to get to that answer. Yes you can. He calculates how much each module adds to the total resist in absolute terms. He then adds these terms together to get the total resists percentage. It's a very simple method that demonstrates what happens every time you add an additional module. Face-palming at this reply. Go get a calculator and punch in his formula, the numbers it returns will not match his answer. Or maybe I am just silly and don't understand, then maybe you can explain how 21.51% was calculated using his formula?
How about YOU just type his formula into YOUR calculator. His math is absolutely correct and in my opinion the best way to calculate the resists, for me its a lot easier than all the inverting you do but i suppose thats just personal preference. Anyway before you tell ppl that someone's math is wrong you should actually check it out first... (make use of the brackets ;-) )
But to not lessen what you are trying to do with your thread. your math is also correct and might be the better way for others to calculate it, as I said which way someone uses is just personal preference. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
23680
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 19:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Paul Panala wrote:Face-palming at this reply. Go get a calculator and punch in his formula, the numbers it returns will GǪmatch his answer since it is correct. You are just not understanding what he's doing and why. In case you've gotten to whatever grade it is they teach polynomials in these days, which seems increasingly doubtful, this is what you use:
r = 1-(1-rGéÇ) +ù GêÅ (1 - rߦó +ù sߦó) where rߦó is the i:th resist from highest to lowest and sߦó is the stacking penalty multiplier for the i:th module (with suitcases being a special annoyance since their stacking penalty is 100% so you can't just cdr down the list).
Quote:Or maybe I am just silly and don't understand, then maybe you can explain how 21.51% was calculated using his formula? (1 - 0.55) +ù 0.55 +ù 0.869 = 0.215
It's right there in the post. How did you fail to understand something that elementary? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2. |
Paul Panala
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
185
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 19:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
My apologies, I did misread his formula and came to the wrong conclusion. It is doing the same thing mine is and both return the correct answer. I will transfer 10M ISK to both of your accounts when I get on tonight. GF
|
J'Poll
CDG Playgrounds
4298
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 19:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Paul Panala wrote:My apologies, I did misread his formula and came to the wrong conclusion. It is doing the same thing mine is and both return the correct answer. I will transfer 10M ISK to both of your accounts when I get on tonight. GF
And the fun part, because of that and your arrogant behaviour, you are no where near the position to educate people.
Great, you made a huge hastle to calculate something Tau already pointed out more logically a while ago. Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Ever wanted to PvP but can't find people to fly with. Look no further and this chat: Redemption Road |
|
Hengle Teron
Mew Age Outpaws
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 19:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
You are so good at math you don't understand a simple equation. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5678
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 20:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
My equation. Stack a bunch of resists and hope I didn't **** it up and die.
Figuring out profit margins on my build jobs is as far as I go for math in this game. And I don't even think on that too deeply.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Xasnevian
sadfadsfadsadsf
50
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 20:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
Paul Panala wrote:My apologies, I did misread his formula and came to the wrong conclusion. It is doing the same thing mine is and both return the correct answer. I will transfer 10M ISK to both of your accounts when I get on tonight. GF
+1 for admitting your mistake |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1360
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 20:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
This is exactly why I try to fit EANM II's on my frigates when possible. I'd rather sacrifice a little DPS to get more resists. You can take hundreds of % more damage? Yes please! Epic Space Cat |
Atalia Madeveda
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 20:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
Paul Panala wrote:Atalia Madeveda wrote:Actually, you can get +100% resists on certain T2 haulers. You blow up if you take that damage type. You can't get 100% resists on anything, the resistances are an asymptote so it isn't possible. It might be possible to get resistances up to 99.6%, which would round up to show 100%
Consume my pie of your shame heathen.
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4007
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 20:32:00 -
[26] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Great, you made a huge hastle to calculate something Tau already pointed out more logically a while ago. Well, I do make mistakes. Notice how many times I edit my posts
This thread has at least given me a new link to post next time, which I hope is more understandable explanation of resist math.
The OP might also find this one useful: can someone help me make sense of ammo info window? |
Serene Repose
1471
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 21:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
We're back to: "You think that number means this when it actually means that."
quote=Mr Epeen]My equation. Stack a bunch of resists and hope I didn't **** it up and die. Figuring out profit margins on my build jobs is as far as I go for math in this game. And I don't even think on that too deeply. Mr Epeen [/quote]You always were a cerebral kinda guy. Prolly why hair refuses to grow on that cue ball of yours. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Bloody Slave
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
134
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 02:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Paul Panala wrote:My apologies, I did misread his formula and came to the wrong conclusion. It is doing the same thing mine is and both return the correct answer. I will transfer 10M ISK to both of your accounts when I get on tonight. GF
And the fun part, because of that and your arrogant behaviour, you are no where near the position to educate people. Great, you made a huge hastle to calculate something Tau already pointed out more logically a while ago.
C'mon, the guy already apologised. He is in the process of educating himself.
If your balls are hurt and bleeding don't sit in a pool full of piranhas (note to myself: don't complain in GD) |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1066
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 06:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Just fill your mids with shield extenders and lows with Shield Power Relays and viola ! no need to ever calculate a resist again. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5200
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 06:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:This is exactly why I try to fit EANM II's on my frigates when possible. I'd rather sacrifice a little DPS to get more resists. You can take hundreds of % more damage? Yes please!
Beware though. I had a high resist Astero get blapped in a covert site. Some of the others in the DC57 project found that buffers are still good for a high front-loaded damage input (AOE, bombs, etc) Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |