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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Kusum Fawn
State Protectorate Caldari State
516
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Posted - 2014.08.12 21:11:00 -
[241] - Quote
Kynric wrote:Arcturus Gallow wrote: Our C4/C4/C2 will be the most well connected wormhole of all, with 2 statics in each of our statics, and that is awesome. But the income is simply not enough to sustain a decently sized pvp group comfortably, especially if the characters are pretty young, and cannot farm sites alone.
My experience has been that it works best when you plan to make your isk in your statics rather than at home. Home is rapidly made bare while new statics are eternal. As such the issue is more likely a bad choice of static rather than a bad choice of home. If you want to hunt or farm c5 space, a c5 static is more useful than a c5 home with some other static. I suppose this also is the real problem with capital escalations as they encourage too much looking inward imo rather than taking from your surroundings.
Remember that the it is only possible now to support a large group in the sub c5-6 wh classes because of the wh rolling mechanics. The new changes make it much harder to sustain multiple person wh in the lower classes by increasing the time to roll each wh by several minutes which carries a large amount of risk, disproportional to the class of wh being rolled. In the sub capital wh, using orcas or in the special case of C1, battlecruisers, the amount of isk at risk for each wh while rolling is not as easily replaced by home system farming.
As seen by the statics :
C1 20 Gg / 500 Gg C2 300 Gg / 2,000 Gg C3 300 / 2,000 C4 300 / 2,000 C5 300 / 3,000 - 1,350 / 3,000 C6 300 / 3,000- 1,350 / 3,000
The preferred ship will be closest to the maximum per jump possible resulting in the fewest jumps with the shortest amount of polarization time. For almost all wh (with the aforementioned exception of C1) Orcas at 250 Gg are the obvious choice. Carriers at an average of 1,000 and dreads at 1,250 are too large to roll any of the statics. Capital jumping only applies to the wandering wh that connect C5 and C6 to low and nullsec.
Orcas at 250 Gg require 8 jumps (4 passes) on average to close a wh. Battleships at an average of 100 Gg increse then number of jumps (on a c2 - c4 static wh) to the range of 20 (10 passes) Factoring in a polarization timer of 4 minutes per pass that is a change of an additional 24 minutes from orca to battleship for a single wh roll.
Planning to make similar amounts of isk in wh farming statics after the patch will simply not be viable for many people. Average blue Loot drop anoms (in millions) C2 - 6 C3 - 32 C4 - 57.75 C5 - 187.8 C6 - 325
For a C2 corp to recoup the cost of an orca (current price 690 mil) it would take an approximate 115 anoms to recover C3 - 21.6 C4 - 12 C5 - 4 C6 - 3
One or two such losses for a lower class wh is crippling in terms of profitability.
- because of how quickly a home static gets farmed out and the number of statics that need to be farmed to recover from a single rolling orca loss Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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CorranCHalcyon
THE AESIR.
0
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Posted - 2014.08.12 21:15:00 -
[242] - Quote
I have to say I like this change to W-space. C4s are always quiet when scanning and warping fleet through. They are often overlooked by corps because you are unable to cap escalate. I agree with CCPs thesis that by adding a second static not only will C4 systems become more popular for corps to live in, but it will also increase their traffic and thus more PVP.
Thank you CCP
On a side note:
CCP I have a suggestion. If you find it feasible, split the CSM into three smaller CSM councils of three or four people. One for Null, Lowsec and W-space. They would all have the same duties as the current incarnation of the CSM does, but they would also represent their own areas of space. Null would have no responsibilities nor any say in W-space or Lowsec. And the other two councils would follow the same guidelines respectively. Also with this paradigm for CSM it would break the sheer numbers that Null Alliances have to control the vote for the majority of the CSM. It would give other organizations to have a primary voice. |
LastRound
The Not Elite Four
2
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Posted - 2014.08.12 23:30:00 -
[243] - Quote
CorranCHalcyon wrote:I have to say I like this change to W-space. C4s are always quiet when scanning and warping fleet through. They are often overlooked by corps because you are unable to cap escalate. I agree with CCPs thesis that by adding a second static not only will C4 systems become more popular for corps to live in, but it will also increase their traffic and thus more PVP.
It won't be more popular for corps to live in because you cannot cap escalate and they have increased the risk to the c4 owners, if you're farming in your static you now have more potential incoming connections. I suspect after this change you'll see more people moving out. |
Blake Nosferatu
Phoenix of the Black Sun
1
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Posted - 2014.08.12 23:47:00 -
[244] - Quote
LastRound wrote:CorranCHalcyon wrote:I have to say I like this change to W-space. C4s are always quiet when scanning and warping fleet through. They are often overlooked by corps because you are unable to cap escalate. I agree with CCPs thesis that by adding a second static not only will C4 systems become more popular for corps to live in, but it will also increase their traffic and thus more PVP. It won't be more popular for corps to live in because you cannot cap escalate and they have increased the risk to the c4 owners, if you're farming in your static you now have more potential incoming connections. I suspect after this change you'll see more people moving out.
If ccp increases the profit in c4's (now that there is more risk) i think the opposite Wil happen. More people will move into c4's. More targets and easier to fund pvp.However if the current rate of reward stays id have to agree with more people will move out of c4 space. |
Elyas Crux
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
1
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Posted - 2014.08.13 01:38:00 -
[245] - Quote
Kp Amelia wrote:Elyas Crux wrote:+1 Second static for C4s is a sensible change that will bring more interaction and gives C4 a niche. In fact it would do the opposite. C2's currently hold that niche, the change would make C4s and C2s the same. In fact one could argue that what C4s currently have is niche.
As I understand it C4 statics would only connect to W-space and C2s would remain 1 K-space and 1 W-space. This is certainly similar but there is a distinction as there is no guaranteed 1 jump to highsec possible (besides wandering wormholes). The current C4 niche as I see it is being the easiest non-capital capable class to maintain wormhole control over and effectively isolate yourself from the rest of W-space. This is change will certainly be very different from the current C4 style but I don't think it would lessen C2s role as some groups need that permanent K-space link.
So provided C2s still have a defined role the question becomes should C4s remain isolated or be rebalanced to become W-space hubs. |
Fish McCragg
Adventure Bros.
14
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Posted - 2014.08.13 02:54:00 -
[246] - Quote
Well, I'd be surprised if CCP is going to get any more useful feedback out of this thread at this point, so I propose we start digging for as much info as we can get on the new static types and where to expect them. They said it won't be as obvious as C2s are, but there will be patters. What have we seen on SISI so far guys? |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 05:32:00 -
[247] - Quote
CorranCHalcyon wrote:I have to say I like this change to W-space. C4s are always quiet when scanning and warping fleet through. They are often overlooked by corps because you are unable to cap escalate. I agree with CCPs thesis that by adding a second static not only will C4 systems become more popular for corps to live in, but it will also increase their traffic and thus more PVP.
Thank you CCP
Do realize that this PVP promoting is only good for a bit. If you wipe a corp of 10 chars in C4, they are gone, most likely never to find way unless they had hisec probed, assets for grabs and one less gruop to interact with. Short term fun, long term empty WHs.
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Winthorp
2531
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Posted - 2014.08.13 05:55:00 -
[248] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote: and one less gruop to interact with.
I'm sorry did you interact with us before? |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
34
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Posted - 2014.08.13 06:53:00 -
[249] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote: and one less gruop to interact with.
I'm sorry did you interact with us before?
TBH im not sure, been in WH for too long to remember everybody who shot at me or who we shot at. More aimed at groups of 10 chars, get wiped on closing. Well, gg. |
Kp Amelia
Origin. Black Legion.
16
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Posted - 2014.08.13 08:06:00 -
[250] - Quote
Blake Nosferatu wrote:LastRound wrote:CorranCHalcyon wrote:I have to say I like this change to W-space. C4s are always quiet when scanning and warping fleet through. They are often overlooked by corps because you are unable to cap escalate. I agree with CCPs thesis that by adding a second static not only will C4 systems become more popular for corps to live in, but it will also increase their traffic and thus more PVP. It won't be more popular for corps to live in because you cannot cap escalate and they have increased the risk to the c4 owners, if you're farming in your static you now have more potential incoming connections. I suspect after this change you'll see more people moving out. If ccp increases the profit in c4's (now that there is more risk) i think the opposite Wil happen. More people will move into c4's. More targets and easier to fund pvp.However if the current rate of reward stays id have to agree with more people will move out of c4 space.
That's the problem, CCP have not said anything about increasing the payout. So expect C4s to be even more empty then they are now. |
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Kuya Third
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2014.08.13 10:39:00 -
[251] - Quote
Why should a logic like "more wh connections = more pvp" work out? Thinking so must consider all players are dumb, except those who had the idea. Trying to force people into pvp did never work in eve. Neither do the dumb like it getting placed as gank fodder. Probably blitzing c3's generates more income with hyperion.. until they found out where they hiding - maybe c5 even?
C1 20 Gg / 500 Gg C2 300 Gg / 2,000 Gg C3 300 / 2,000 C4 300 / 2,000 C5 300 / 3,000 - 1,350 / 3,000 C6 300 / 3,000- 1,350 / 3,000
Adjust this numbers to reasonable values please. Looks like a bug as they are. |
DemoGraFX
Ishukone Research Services
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 14:14:00 -
[252] - Quote
Blake Nosferatu wrote:LastRound wrote:CorranCHalcyon wrote:I have to say I like this change to W-space. C4s are always quiet when scanning and warping fleet through. They are often overlooked by corps because you are unable to cap escalate. I agree with CCPs thesis that by adding a second static not only will C4 systems become more popular for corps to live in, but it will also increase their traffic and thus more PVP. It won't be more popular for corps to live in because you cannot cap escalate and they have increased the risk to the c4 owners, if you're farming in your static you now have more potential incoming connections. I suspect after this change you'll see more people moving out. If ccp increases the profit in c4's (now that there is more risk) i think the opposite Wil happen. More people will move into c4's. More targets and easier to fund pvp.However if the current rate of reward stays id have to agree with more people will move out of c4 space.
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Pashko Morgan
Roid Gnash Pills
2
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Posted - 2014.08.13 14:18:00 -
[253] - Quote
2 Kusum Fawn. You forgot 100mn propulsion mods which add mass. Remake your math. The numbers will be a bit less dissapointing.
Most of c4 residents are not care bears (4-4 are ones for sure but meh). Small corps of lazy friends, some wh newcomers etc. I doubt they are living c4 to make isk. If you want c4 to be alive and kicking then you need to give c4 dwellers a unique resource so desired to be faught for. Ice / moon goo / advanced ABC on probed gravimetrics / sleeper officer spawn / whatever. I know you have enough weed to figure it up and give us a carrot to run for
add: autotext o\ |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 14:20:00 -
[254] - Quote
Pashko Morgan wrote:2 Kusum Fawn. You forgot 100mn propulsion mods wich add mass. Remake tour math. The numbers will be a bit less dissapointing. Most of c4 residents are not care bears (4-4 are ones for sure but meh). Small corps of lazy friends, some wh newcomers etc. I doubt they are living c4 to make isk. If you want c4 to be alive and kicking then you need to give c4 dwellers a unique resource so desired to be faught for. Ice / moon goo / advanced ABC on probed gravimetrics / sleeper officer spawn / whatever. I know you have enough weed to figure it up and give us a carrot to run for
Add C5+ gases to C4 systems
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Pashko Morgan
Roid Gnash Pills
2
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Posted - 2014.08.13 14:28:00 -
[255] - Quote
That won't work in long term - 320 and 540 prices fell down drastically during last year. C320 and 540 mining niche should be saved for new members of big wh corps while big boys having fun doing cap escalations. Imo* |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
34
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Posted - 2014.08.13 14:35:00 -
[256] - Quote
Pashko Morgan wrote:That won't work in long term - 320 and 540 prices fell down drastically during last year. C320 and 540 mining niche should be saved for new members of big wh corps while big boys having fun doing cap escalations. Imo*
Throwing out ideas :D idk how to put more isk to C4. More anomalies? BEtter blue payouts?
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Fish McCragg
Adventure Bros.
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 14:56:00 -
[257] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
Throwing out ideas :D idk how to put more isk to C4. More anomalies? BEtter blue payouts?
Escalations. Even just one wave would go a long way. |
Kuya Third
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2014.08.13 15:36:00 -
[258] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote:Add C5+ gases to C4 systems
Nice "pvp" content. Is someone really going after ventures?
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DemoGraFX
Ishukone Research Services
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:46:00 -
[259] - Quote
Another issue is mechanics of site and anom spawns...
In the more desirable classes the sites get finished a LOT more and respawn elsewhere. And the population of those classes increase the likelihood that more will get done and the anoms will come back to you more quickly.
I can imagine that c4/c4s rolls over anoms pretty quickly between constellation (or is it region?), but the fewer people live in similar systems with similar statics, the fewer sites get done so the fewer sites spawn cyclically.
Naturally wormhole life is supposed to get boring regardless, to keep you moving, but tbh I'd say this: more sites > better payouts. So maybe decrease the amount of time that a dormant site stays in system before it despawns and respawns somewhere else.
For example, I was living in a c4/c5s for a while. During a 3 week period we had a total of maybe 7 sites. It wasn't because the wormhole "went cold" or was farmed up. It was because anybody who wants a c4 either wants a c4 static for farming, a c3 static for roaming LS pvp or a c2 static for logistics. Nobody was really in the c4/c5s so the sites were just sitting dormant in systems we couldn't realistically find and waiting what, a week? A week unbothered before they move somewhere else? Maybe that would be a better starting point.
Would still keep people somewhat bored in home systems and needing to branch out, but it would at least keep things flowing a bit more so the lack of pay in c4s could be made up by the sites making their way around more often.
The people in more desirable holes are getting their sites from other people doing them so quickly, so this would mainly improve the less desirable regions/constellations the most, where it's really needed. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1007
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:58:00 -
[260] - Quote
I would like to add a suggestion, once one rebalances the C1 to C4 wormholes this might be a good idea. See below
There is an issue in c3 and More particularly C4 wormholes that small corporations ALL have times of day when there may only be a single player on.
This means for that player, after scanning out everything possible, his only choices are to wait for others, or escape to HIsec or null for their income opportunities.
The suggestion is the spawning of signature sites (not anomalies) suitable for a skilled single player in additional to the existing ones, not vast numbers, but enough to give some interest and income in those off times.
Keep them able to be completed reasonably quickly with a little more emphasis on blue loot, as the likelihood of being disturbed is high.
This will encourage the continuous working of wormholes through most of the day, rather than just peak times. And encourage players to live and work wormhole space rather than having to have a part time job in Kspace. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
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Pashko Morgan
Roid Gnash Pills
2
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Posted - 2014.08.13 16:27:00 -
[261] - Quote
The content you are asking for is called "fronteir barracks in 100mn ham tengu" Pros: - 100km+ spawn distances are not an issue (2k + km/s) - Nice payout with 30 mins/barrack (600 dps with faction / 700 rage) - Can be speedtanked (Personally can complete a barrack in active 100mn tengu without even touching shield booster) - Safe as hi-sec l4 (guests need at least a 2 rapiers to catch you) Cons: Barracks is an anom. you requested something other than anom. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11046
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 17:53:00 -
[262] - Quote
Hey everyone.
I want to make it clear that we are interested in making adjustments to wormhole PVE in the future, and we're working with the CSM to do some planning for that now but there won't be any major PVE changes in Hyperion. Those still need more time.
I definitely do believe that there are more factors to a decision about where to live than the amount of money that can be farmed, and the addition of the second static should help reinforce some of these other factors.
You guys will be noticing second statics appearing on SISI now. Of course since this is a test server things might change before release, but we have no current plans to change which systems get which static again before they hit TQ. So as always plan using SISI information at your own risk, but in this case it's a relatively small risk. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
141
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Posted - 2014.08.13 18:11:00 -
[263] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone.
I want to make it clear that we are interested in making adjustments to wormhole PVE in the future, and we're working with the CSM to do some planning for that now but there won't be any major PVE changes in Hyperion. Those still need more time.
I definitely do believe that there are more factors to a decision about where to live than the amount of money that can be farmed, and the addition of the second static should help reinforce some of these other factors.
You guys will be noticing second statics appearing on SISI now. Of course since this is a test server things might change before release, but we have no current plans to change which systems get which static again before they hit TQ. So as always plan using SISI information at your own risk, but in this case it's a relatively small risk.
So all these hours scanning isnt a waste? Most likely? :)
And whats up with q413? ~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
Fish McCragg
Adventure Bros.
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:14:00 -
[264] - Quote
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn wrote:I'm not sure but i scanned some minutes ago with my alt in a c4 on sissy and i've two statics in this c4. normaly it's a c4-c1 and now there is a c247 to a c3. Maybe the new statics are online on sissy now.
What constellation is that in, if I may ask? |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
440
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 21:30:00 -
[265] - Quote
Fish McCragg wrote:Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn wrote:I'm not sure but i scanned some minutes ago with my alt in a c4 on sissy and i've two statics in this c4. normaly it's a c4-c1 and now there is a c247 to a c3. Maybe the new statics are online on sissy now. What constellation is that in, if I may ask?
already taking notes, good, good Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1012
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 21:39:00 -
[266] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone.
I want to make it clear that we are interested in making adjustments to wormhole PVE in the future, and we're working with the CSM to do some planning for that now but there won't be any major PVE changes in Hyperion. Those still need more time.
I definitely do believe that there are more factors to a decision about where to live than the amount of money that can be farmed, and the addition of the second static should help reinforce some of these other factors.
You guys will be noticing second statics appearing on SISI now. Of course since this is a test server things might change before release, but we have no current plans to change which systems get which static again before they hit TQ. So as always plan using SISI information at your own risk, but in this case it's a relatively small risk.
Agreed, when many are making suggestions regarding income, it is not so one can bear up and turn on the isk tap.
Mainly residents of lower class holes are concerned, that the realities are such that they have worries about the viability of fuelling their pos, and covering their costs, and their members can cover replacements, without having to go out to Kspace to finance it or top it up.
The decision to stay in a wormhole is mainly based on the desire to be here, the income is just the mechanism to make it possible.
Hopefully, your changes ensure this is the case as the ability to totally isolate yourself now even less possible. Most who wish to live here are not here just for the Isk, there are some, and they will probably get fewer. The more vibrant the space the more will be here because it is the life they choose and enjoy.
If you can balance the PVE to allow all to participate in some small way, even during quiet times, when few are on, this would not harm that and allow more life at all times.
Most of us would not wish to see people flooding in just for isk.
But even they have their role as targets of opportunity too. Fair risk for fair reward, is perfectly fine. They may grow to love it here as well.
Your changes, balance that nicely. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Kp Amelia
Origin. Black Legion.
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 21:59:00 -
[267] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone.
I want to make it clear that we are interested in making adjustments to wormhole PVE in the future, and we're working with the CSM to do some planning for that now but there won't be any major PVE changes in Hyperion. Those still need more time.
I definitely do believe that there are more factors to a decision about where to live than the amount of money that can be farmed, and the addition of the second static should help reinforce some of these other factors.
You guys will be noticing second statics appearing on SISI now. Of course since this is a test server things might change before release, but we have no current plans to change which systems get which static again before they hit TQ. So as always plan using SISI information at your own risk, but in this case it's a relatively small risk.
Well while we will be looking at how things turn out after the patch, I feel that this may be driving out of our current C4. We will have to look for alternative ways of making isk that are actually reliable and sustainable. It is just not sustainable to make isk in a wormehole when one lost fleet is the equivalent of over a week of solid farming.
Hopefully the large Pvp wormhole entities will gain from this patch as CCP is intending and that not to many people move out due to unsustainable life. I will be very interested to see the activity graphs a couple months from now and see if CCP got what the wanted from this patch.
Good luck to other C4 owners, hopefully this patch does not effect you as negatively as it we are expecting it to us.
Edit: Fozzie I would appreciate it if you didn't constantly emphasis the CSM when addressing questions regarding patches and such. As while I respect the fact that it is them who provide gamer feedback to you, it is you as CCP who make the decisions regarding final changes not CSM, and it is on you as CCP that accountability for both concerns as well as praise should fall. |
Tiger Tesla
Periphery Bound
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 00:19:00 -
[268] - Quote
I am somewhat split on whether or not the static will be a benefit or a hinderence. I just discovered on SISI that my C4/C3 home will be gaining a C4 static. Ignoring the obvious implications of the other wanderings and the frequency of wanderings, this means my wormhole is connected to at least 3 more systems than before the patch.
The hole now has the ability to roll into any space in eve, any K-space, by way of the C3, and any W-space by way of the C4 static's statics. This makes it a very unique system, and I look forward to exploring the possibilities with my group. There is a big BUT though.
It requires more pilots to take advantage of. One of the main problems in wormholes is the lack of Isk making opportunities for the 'lone' pilot times. While it doesn't happen often in my group, many other C4s will have difficulty practicing any sort of hole control. Hole control, by way of scouts or closing holes, requires even more pilots/alts than it did before, which indicates that CCP would rather players not practice hole control the way that we do today, or if we are supposed to adapt our current methods that we should be making less Isk than we currently are. Given the rediculously slow respawn rate of sites, mostly due to general wormhole inactivity and black holes gathering sites (hopefully that will change) , c4 wormholers make very little Isk in their home unless they are very small groups, the very groups that will be forced out by these changes.
While I will obviously adapt and lead my corp within wormholes regardless of the changes, I worry about the staying power of my members due to lack of income. Even if we have to run sites in PvP fleets, the tactical disadvantage of having your fleet visable running a site is great enough that if a group does engage you, it is because they already know they will win. In a game of rock paper scissors like eve, it's an easy win if you already know what your opponent has. |
Klarion Sythis
Literally Solo
295
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 00:47:00 -
[269] - Quote
Just a quick thought, but what about trying to adapt to inevitable danger if you're unable to seal yourself off from it? Design a PVE setup where you can sit on a mobile MJD, scouts on holes and just push the button if danger jumps in. Poof, you're out of sleeper point range and able to warp off. |
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn
Querschlaeger
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 04:16:00 -
[270] - Quote
Fish McCragg wrote:Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn wrote:I'm not sure but i scanned some minutes ago with my alt in a c4 on sissy and i've two statics in this c4. normaly it's a c4-c1 and now there is a c247 to a c3. Maybe the new statics are online on sissy now. What constellation is that in, if I may ask?
It's in constellation D-C00172 and Region D-R00018. |
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