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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1537
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Posted - 2014.08.07 00:57:00 -
[121] - Quote
Wow. this thread. So many non-reasons against frigate mass wormholes. I'm going to say this once, and once only - you are all bad. No, i lie, I'll repeat it several times, with evidence.
Implants in your head are no reason not to put these in. It's also clear you are all massive bears. Me, I roll a 50M ISk clone with 3 percent hardwires only. Clone costs near 20m to replace. Zero phux given.
So many hide-bound 6 Prot + 6 guardian + 2 jamgu doctrine w-blobbers hiding behind noob corp alts (you're all from SSC and HK, those two corps account for 60% of w-space, stop being bad).
For a start, there's the dinkuses who say "Oh em gee look at me so pimp in my slaves OMG I won't be using no frigates to go roaming, oh em gee smartbombs online oh em gee".
Seriously, you guys don't even have a clue about the environment you are entering.
If (when) the mass-jump equation goes live, frigates will spawn more or less at zero on the wormhole. Guess what doesn't work within range of a wormhole? That's right, you primates - smartbombs. Bam, your fears dispelled, your illogic trashed. Warp at range from a camped Wh in a ceptor, form a pounce behind it, warp frigs out of lineof smartbombing BS.
Harden up, fruitcakes, and get out of your Protatoes. leave your 6 guardians at home. I'm not kidding, I Nereus baited a 820M ISK 100MN HAM legion, he got angry, his alliance brought 6 Guardians to fight 4 guys, one in a hauler.
Mass limitations on wormholes already exist next, you are all terrible at PYFA/EFT. None of you can read ship attributes, and your hole closing maths extends to Orca cold/Orca hot. I am not going to give you a free ride on this because i want to exploit the balls out of these frigate wormholes, but suffice to say BUGRY and pals have been rolling a doctrine for five years now which is made for these wormholes.
If you cannot work out how to exploit (in the sense of 'make use of') low-mass connections which doesn't involve collapse-HIC it and go away or suicide-YOLO your 2.5B slave pods and Proteuses and 6 Guardians (hint: you don't do this, ever, c.f. carebears with expensive pods) then more fool you.
Simple maths state a frigate hull weighs 2500t and a critted B274 can have up to 200,000t. 200/2.5 = how many? You work that out, numbskulls. Even today there are wormhole connections you can exploit with frigate gangs, even against T3's.
People are already doing this I know it's gauche to post killmails. But i'll post two to illustrate my point. The victims are not being trolled - I fly with Bakla Firoz on a public roam, just not the week we deprived him of a Proteus through a massed B274 with a blob of AFs. Then there was a Vargur we blobbed the hell out of. Again, no fault of his and we just happened to have 20 AFs roaming.
We've dropped 4 AFs and 2 logi cruisers into 6 T3's/CS's before and only pulled out when the logi screwed up because it was a Magnetar. Lost no pods because they are frigates - if you don't know how to fly something that goes faster than a double 1600 plated Proteus, that's your problem, not a reason to not put frig holes in the game.
Is it w-bro to blob with 20 AFs? I dunno. Seems you need 20 legions before you're elite.
It's already here, guys, you are just bad at thinking, or playing coy. Frigate sized wormholes will just let the advanced thinkers and people who have a POS full of Enyos leverage opportunities without resorting to the tired old 6 prots, 6 Guardians 2 jamgu crud.
Crying because your clones are too loaded with pimplants and you are too space-rich to have a cllean clone is no argument against anything - it is illustrating how pathetic the wormhole meta has become that it's Proteus + Guardians online with a small mental break to ishtars in the last 6 months. Grow a set and take some risks.
- - - -
Mass regeneration is OK provided it can be crushed. ie; calculate the time it takes to crush it solo, and make sure it doesn't regenerate at more than half that rate per hour or minute. Also, remember that orca crush may be slower and more painful now they are going to spawn a billion klicks off hole.
This wwill allow you to crush a hole, with dilligence. It will also, then, allow you to push a bunch of haulers, orcas, whatever, through a hole and let it repair, allowing you to keep doing this. But it won't allow infinite BS to come through. I mean, imagine a B449 to perimeter from VFK, instant infinite logistics for nullbears? Buh-bow. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
526
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Posted - 2014.08.07 01:03:00 -
[122] - Quote
Why do you think more (and more importantly, unclosable) wormholes will lead to more pvp? If anything, it will lead to less.
Carebears can't make themselves "safe" so they pack up and leave.
PvPers now have fewer targets.
For the people in the middle who are satisfied with dropping pickets on incoming wormholes, all this does is increase the number of alt accounts they'll have to maintain in order to maintain safety...oh.
Guess I just found the reason for this. CCP wants us to pay for more alt accounts. |
Torbin Palarem
J-Space BrotherHood Zombie Pony Express
0
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Posted - 2014.08.07 01:52:00 -
[123] - Quote
I'm a bit new to all this WH stuff so I may be missing some things, but I don't understand all the hate against these proposed changes.
It seems the main issue people are concerned about in large gangs of frigates coming into their holes. However from what I have read these new WH's only open in the WH to null direction, and don't open until someone travels through them.
So you are in your WH, and you close your other WH's in the usual way before doing the sites, and as long as no-one has travelled through these new WH's they won't be open, so no-one will be entering through them anyway.
The only problem I see is if someone has opened them without you knowing beforehand.
And I had a chuckle when someone said they would have to sit on one 24/7, when they are open only 16hrs anyway, not even 24hrs, much less 7 days. |
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
3
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Posted - 2014.08.07 01:59:00 -
[124] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:+1 to persistent wormholes that can't be shut
even the big ones Kinda like null with no local? |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
13
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Posted - 2014.08.07 02:06:00 -
[125] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Why do you think more (and more importantly, unclosable) wormholes will lead to more pvp? If anything, it will lead to less.
Carebears can't make themselves "safe" so they pack up and leave.
PvPers now have fewer targets.
For the people in the middle who are satisfied with dropping pickets on incoming wormholes, all this does is increase the number of alt accounts they'll have to maintain in order to maintain safety...oh.
Guess I just found the reason for this. CCP wants us to pay for more alt accounts.
This. Thanks for making it so succinct. |
Amgurr Alabel
Rolling Static Gone Critical
0
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Posted - 2014.08.07 02:25:00 -
[126] - Quote
My biggest concern with this change is as if fighting in a WH did not already favor the defending corp enough now not only do they have their home holes effects but they will be able to field bigger ships while groups coming through these holes will only be able to field frigate sized ships.
It would be sweet if these popped you into like an arena system so everyone in system had the same limitations.(I guess this would kind of be like FW gates) |
Affenmesserkampf Achsoo
Spirits of Vacon Hole Control
0
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Posted - 2014.08.07 02:36:00 -
[127] - Quote
i think its a bad thing for small corps who are living in wh-¦s , if they have a wh that they cant close they can only log out and wait till this mass regenerating wh disappears |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
366
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Posted - 2014.08.07 02:36:00 -
[128] - Quote
Meh. |
Hayley Enaka
Hard Knocks Inc.
38
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Posted - 2014.08.07 02:40:00 -
[129] - Quote
Chicken Exroofer wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Why do you think more (and more importantly, unclosable) wormholes will lead to more pvp? If anything, it will lead to less.
Carebears can't make themselves "safe" so they pack up and leave.
PvPers now have fewer targets.
For the people in the middle who are satisfied with dropping pickets on incoming wormholes, all this does is increase the number of alt accounts they'll have to maintain in order to maintain safety...oh.
Guess I just found the reason for this. CCP wants us to pay for more alt accounts. This. Thanks for making it so succinct.
Think of it this way. Did bubble immune ceptors kill pve in nullsec? All of a sudden the great wall of bubbles wasn't keeping you safe and you can be tackled in the time it took you to align out and yet somehow, there are still plenty of people doing PVE in space that isn't so safe any more. The smart bears learned to stay aligned and are even capable of defending themselves.
Now let me ask you this. Are you, the mightly wormhole dweller, dumber than a nullsec carebear and completely incapable of defending yourself from a gang of frigates? |
Malcolm Rennolds
Inquisition FiS Division Surely You're Joking
29
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Posted - 2014.08.07 02:43:00 -
[130] - Quote
For me the big issue isn't the lose of value when I get podded, it's the expectation that I'm supposed to go out and pvp vs a fleet of hictors and frigs knowing that I will get podded and have to run a pipe back in home. I can accept having to fly cheap clones all the time in w-space but it's the hassle of getting podded out on a roam.
Although I agree with others that the most likely response will just be fleets of hictors with mobile depots. |
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Niewidka
Zabijaki i Pijaki YARRR and CO
0
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Posted - 2014.08.07 02:56:00 -
[131] - Quote
Well new changes look like proper stick for every small organisation in WH. -Even grater risk wen earning ISK. -Difficulty in quick rolling holes. -Bit nerf-ish towards bonuses. -WH for small stuff that no one will like to use unless he have 30 man strong frig gang behind him...
Then I Would like to ask where is the carrot ? - You know the stick and a carrot trick
Why not using your imagination CCP to add some content new ways to explore make us entertained and curious ?
- deploy-able wh stabilizer thats thats makes wormhole more stable / bigger / lasting longer - something to fight for like more complicated pos like mini star base ( fully destructible) / new sites / something unique ? - stuff to expand possibilities and ways to play the game instead of limiting it for most of people living in wh ?
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3598
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Posted - 2014.08.07 02:58:00 -
[132] - Quote
kinda busted that you can bring HICs through... Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
73
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Posted - 2014.08.07 04:04:00 -
[133] - Quote
I look forward to this change.
If hics can go through, I assume Tech 3s can too, which is great for me when I go hunting. |
Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
528
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Posted - 2014.08.07 04:26:00 -
[134] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:If hics can go through, I assume Tech 3s can too, which is great for me when I go hunting. You assume incorrectly. The only reason HICs can fit is that their bubbles greatly reduce their mass, to less than that of a frig.
Only frigs and HICs in the fleets of the future. |
Mavis O'Day
Total. Fractal Multiversity
5
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Posted - 2014.08.07 05:44:00 -
[135] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Wow. this thread. So many non-reasons against frigate mass wormholes. I'm going to say this once, and once only - you are all bad.
Like they really do care about our opinion even if we all were clearly brilliant. The W-Nerf is on it's way, now we just negotiating the real damage. |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
102
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Posted - 2014.08.07 06:05:00 -
[136] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Yeah the more i think about this addition the less i like it. I hate how popular interceptors have become in k-space due to their op mechanics, and the last thing i want to see is wormhole space full of ceptors...
I think this wormhole would be better suited to a new class of wormhole system. A system that has no moons to anchor a POS and profitable PVE that can be ran by a strong frigate fleet.
My understanding is that the Inty swarms only really become an issue when there's a ton of them, like a full wing. Thousand Paper Cuts kind of thing. Since standard Logi's can't come in through that, only Logi Frigs, I don't think it'll end up too bad. You can deal with the Logi frigs then slowly chip away at the Inties. Or have everyone kinda just sit there eternally till DT as no one can kill the other. One of the two. I don't think there's too many WH groups that can load out a full wing of inties at the moment to cause those kinds of issues. The occasional Null roaming gang maybe. |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
12
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Posted - 2014.08.07 06:12:00 -
[137] - Quote
BayneNothos wrote:
My understanding is that the Inty swarms only really become an issue when there's a ton of them, like a full wing. Thousand Paper Cuts kind of thing. Since standard Logi's can't come in through that, only Logi Frigs, I don't think it'll end up too bad. You can deal with the Logi frigs then slowly chip away at the Inties. Or have everyone kinda just sit there eternally till DT as no one can kill the other. One of the two. I don't think there's too many WH groups that can load out a full wing of inties at the moment to cause those kinds of issues. The occasional Null roaming gang maybe.
Small cuts hurt :)
But on other hand, whats stopping me from putting 4 faction smartbombfitted battleships around the WH. Once outside base range you pretty much ded. And bloba gonna. |
Kira Hhallas
Very Drunken Eve Flying Instructors Brotherhood Of Silent Space
383
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Posted - 2014.08.07 07:13:00 -
[138] - Quote
So this change is really strange.
Yes nice idea with Frig size WH, but like others say, if you don't change the ISK income, people will leave the W-space. To much risk for to less ISK.... we are all more or less Carebears in Space.
So give the People in Wormhole space, a better ISK Income, and I don't speak about sleeper loot. I speak about Ice Belts or better the idea of T2 Mineral Belts .....
so I am not shure what I have to think about the new WH connections...... Kira Hhallas - Austrian EvE Community - ingame =+ûsterreich= -
Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1684
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Posted - 2014.08.07 08:11:00 -
[139] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Fozzie, please cancel the small ship wormhole idea until you have some new content deserving of this new connection.
There is no need/place for this given the current mechanics/content. This new low mass wormhole would be better suited as a gateway to a new class of wormhole designed for frigates.
You know i'm right fozzie... +1 |
Ehud Gera
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
1
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Posted - 2014.08.07 08:21:00 -
[140] - Quote
I haven't been in WH's in awhile but when i was we were a small corp. These Small size permanent WH's would have made our lives so difficult as to be unsustainable. IE: Too much risk in proportion to too little isk to sustain small corp WH life.
I REALLY like the idea someone suggested of an arena for small sized ships that isn't just FW. A WH that allows only Dessies and down and has sleepers that can be run by dessies/AF's? (Not to mention a great place to introduce t3 frigs ) This would provide the content without the hassle for the little guy. Plus give a starting point thats even easier for low SP players in WH's. Finally WH's should not be stable thats part of what it means to be a WORMHOLE : instability, unpredictability. That's all.
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Icarus Able
The Scope Gallente Federation
435
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Posted - 2014.08.07 08:29:00 -
[141] - Quote
You. I like you.
Agreed this is an interesting change. You put it much better than i could have done.
The real question is though. Who is gonna be the first corp to kill a cap escalation fleet with Enyos? |
Chev Alsar
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
6
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Posted - 2014.08.07 09:36:00 -
[142] - Quote
Lower class wormhole residents will be more harshly affected by this change.
Are there any plans to add reward to offset this additional risk?
I also feel that allowing wormholes with no mass limit sets a bad precedent.
Wormhole residents are occasionally accused of blobbing but nothing on the scale of null sec.... which this mechanic will allow. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
212
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Posted - 2014.08.07 09:44:00 -
[143] - Quote
don't let these WH's connect to nullsec first - not until you've tried them in highsec and losec, I have a feeling if nullsec finds one of these - the WH that's in there will be swamped by bored null roamers in cheap pods flying cheap frigs, so the WH'ers will POS/cloaky up since they don't want to risk their insanely overpriced pod in an easily popped frigate, then you'll likely get a fleet of bored null roamers shooting the pos for no reason.....
the problem here is that the null roamers are bored - shake their sov up - make them work to keep it - and this wouldn't be so bad.
Also coupled with the spawn range changes - this just makes refuelling your tower a lot more dangerous for smaller WH residents For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
You're Mum
Temnava Legion No Holes Barred
36
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Posted - 2014.08.07 10:05:00 -
[144] - Quote
XvXTeacherVxV wrote: To address people's pod worries, it would be nice if we could use rorquals to switch pods in wormholes. Maybe when the rorqual gets updated?
IMO this is too safe a way to deal with this problem, a deployable module is less secure and therefor a content creator I like the previous idea that if the POS is RF'd that it goes offline so your other pods are stuck :D
CCPGÇÖs song: 99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs, you take one down patch it around, 127 little bugs in the code
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Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2014.08.07 10:16:00 -
[145] - Quote
I keep seeing these grand ideas to make wormholes more PVP oriented than they already are. Where is the income to support this new level of danger and insecurity these unrollable wormholes will present? What incentive is there to stay in a wormhole that makes 0.5% of the value of a ship just for rolling holes from a single combat site (i.e. Orca)? This is much more unsettling for smaller corps, especially in C4 and under, as the income versus risk tables are all imbalanced with the C5 and C6 income.
My own experiences from living in a C3 for 15 months show that, unless you are using the planets for PI as your majority income source, it's extremely hard to make enough to even cover POS fuel bills in a C3, much less replace lost ships. Now you are making unclosable frigate holes that will prevent most industrials from being able to do even that? Most of lower class wormhole corps could not match an incoming blob if they wanted to, with many of these corps displaying 20 or less members, including alts, as their entire roster. The income from a C3 is only around 30-40m a site for combat sites, mining is suicide with all the ore anoms being readily warped to by attackers, and even then having 4-8 connections on a busy day means these holes are already unusable for large blocks of time unless you risk a 600m ISk ship (or multiple battleships at a third of that) to roll those unwanted connections. Losses of T3s from individuals trying to run sites ran one corp I know out of wormholes completely, and they tried to make a go of it in null, then most of the 30 man corp unsubbed and left the game out of frustration over not being able to find a niche to live in and make money. I know this contributed to the loss of several PLEX buyers because that was where the value for those lost T3s came from.. Subscription levels might be able to be fudged, with all the alts out there, but that there are routinely 20k less players online than there were a year ago is not lost on me. I fear these changes are going to cause numbers to dip even more as lower class wormholes become holes to dump ISK into without sufficient return. I recently did some activity in a C1, partially to help some corpmates, and partially to see what the income numbers were like. I make more from L4 missioning in highsec than a C1 combat site generates. With seriously low spawn rates of those combat anoms and painfully low value for having to fly in such a harsh environment, how is anyone supposed to try to live off that income? If I weren't sponsoring a POS off PI income, that fuel bill would wreck some folks for even affording ships to fly.
To summarize: Low mass, unrollable wormholes will accelerate losing players from EVE. What was the benefit here again? |
Setsune Rin
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
215
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Posted - 2014.08.07 11:02:00 -
[146] - Quote
bit skeptical as to the effect it will have on the WH meta, cruiser fleets are really all that you see
with frigate pvp being so easy to find in lowsec there is little incentive to use this slow method of trying to get fights
you might catch a site runner every now and then, but then again you can do that through a normal wormhole as well
i doubt it's going to hurt anyone, but it won't do much either
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Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
228
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Posted - 2014.08.07 11:59:00 -
[147] - Quote
The idea of new, small wormholes is kind of neat.
But as someone who likes cloaky ships, it's limiting my options somewhat: I can either use an almost helpless cov-op, or an Astero. Sure, stealth bombers are also an option, but I personally prefer cruisers.
Is there a possibility to just lessen the constraints enough to allow recon-cruisers to slip through? I would really like to use my Pilgrim for stealthy shenannigans again.
Hell, I know it's a pipe dream, but a new class of cov-ops capable destroyers would be a cool idea and a compromise if recon-cruisers are too much. |
Shaklu
Mass Effect Enterprises Dark Knights of Eden
4
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Posted - 2014.08.07 12:15:00 -
[148] - Quote
This seems to be a direct anti-PVE mechanic. -1
This, tied in with all of the other added WH connectivity means that PVE/Indy corps that are currently living in WH space are having the danger of their existence in WH space drastically increased, while PVP corps are just getting mechanics to make it easier to find victims.
Sure, PVP is fun. However being able to create a safe window is vital for WH security, and adding a 16-hour "scouts and bombers will come in and there's nothing you can do to stop them" WH connections is a terrible idea. It will shut down smaller corps for that 16 hour window. |
Moloney
Mass Effect Enterprises Dark Knights of Eden
70
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Posted - 2014.08.07 12:22:00 -
[149] - Quote
One of the UNIQUE points about WHs it that with some effort you can close the system off for a while.
Being able to close the system off is essential for any PvE activity in WHs.
You intend to add a random spawn WH that cannot be closed to the game.
No NO!! For the love of god NO!
What is wrong with bringing frigates and dessies through regular WH?? You need to add "Special eat the paste kid" version?? |
Shaklu
Mass Effect Enterprises Dark Knights of Eden
4
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Posted - 2014.08.07 12:30:00 -
[150] - Quote
Especially for those living in C4 - You are: adding a static adding indestructible WH fountains for fleets of frigates (yeah.. bombers..) with Hdic support allowing PVP corps to gather a whole fleet on a hole before opening it "More randomly spawning wormholes"...
This game has a SERIOUS problem with PVE. PVP is cool.. I guess.. but I am interested in PVE.. and one of the last places with any at all decent PVE is in WH space, and you are now making it MUCH worse. This will un-sub people. |
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