Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 .. 81 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 18 post(s) |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
10881
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 12:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Reserved for later. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
827
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Poop . |
Andrew Jester
Origin. Black Legion.
579
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Oh this'll be fun If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy |
You're Mum
Temnava Legion No Holes Barred
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
This is bad, you should feel bad CCPGÇÖs song: 99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs, you take one down patch it around, 127 little bugs in the code
|
Viscis Breeze
No Vacancies
38
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
This is the worst change. See the other massive thread for reasons why from virtually all wormhole groups. Recruitment: http://bit.ly/1r4G5Pv Website: http://www.no-vacancies.net/ Channel: No Vacancies
|
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
149
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
It should be the speed that you enter the wormhole at rather than mass twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
|
Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
48
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:
1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else.
2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain.
3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone.
4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.
5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.
The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.
I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.
EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s. |
|
CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
4524
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Please keep your feedback constructive and in accordance with the forum rules.
While you can of course just disagree with the proposed changes, it is much more helpful if you list the reasons and explain why you disagree. The post above by Traiori is a good example of constructive feedback.
Thank you! CCP Phantom - Senior Community Representative - Volunteer Manager |
|
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
There will be far fewer incoming connections from k-space, as more people will warp the wormhole, look at what space is on the other side, and choose not to jump through.
This will reduce the connectedness of w-space more generally. |
BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
828
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
This Is Not A Good Change . |
|
Zlorthishen
Blue-Fire
45
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
12.9 km to 16.9 km is still too much.
maybe instead of having large mass ships appear far from the wormhole, SMALL mass ships should instead Blue-Fire : Best Fire |
SwagYolo420
Perkone Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
how much beer do we need to buy you at fanfest to make you change your mind
|
Andrew Jester
Origin. Black Legion.
579
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
I think everything but the distance spawned from WH bit is p cool. If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
184
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Personally, I think the 8.7km for an Orca feels about right.
It's 3.7km out of jump-back range at worst, and at best it's in range. On average, assuming 200m/s with MWD, I have to protect my Orca for about 7 seconds to get it back into jump range.
I should probably invest in a better cloak for it. =P |
Nox Arnoux
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
57
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
A key element of overcoming someone else's home system advantage is to be able to reliably refit the capitals we commit (i.e. dreads next to carriers). When capitals have the potential of spawning >30 km from each other, that advantage is nullified. To add insult to injury, the home defenders can still decide where their capitals land, while the attackers are at the mercy of the RNG Gods.
You push this change through, and no one will commit capitals into someone else's system ever again. The odds are already stacked heavily in favour of home defenders, why make it even more lopsided? |
Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:Personally, I think the 8.7km for an Orca feels about right.
It's 3.7km out of jump-back range at worst, and at best it's in range. On average, assuming 200m/s with MWD, I have to protect my Orca for about 7 seconds to get it back into jump range.
I should probably invest in a better cloak for it. =P
It's 11.7km on average, 8.7km to jump range at worst (was the orca plated/mwd'd I wonder?).
Read the devblog more carefully. At 200m/s with MWD, that's 40 seconds. Once again, you'd have to warp off/on the hole to get fastest method (I think? I haven't done the exact maths on this one though, as my primary concern is dreads/carriers) |
Jezza McWaffle
Pandora Sphere Disavowed.
139
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
I agree with almost every point made by Traiori, especially with fielding capitals into a hostile hole, ie it wont happen anymore.
Whose going to jump capitals into a hole where the enemy fleet is already prepared? Any other capitals will be outside of refit range of your Triage. C6 Wormhole blog http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/ |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
70
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
It seems to me that the combination of more difficult rolling of holes, plus the more frequent wormhole spawns, plus the existence of the small mass limit, high mass total, regenerating holes will result in a wormhole chain that is deeper than what we find today.
Instead of groups fishing in their shallow static with larger capital backed fleets, the new environment will promote deep chain diving, especially with smaller ships. This should have the effect of creating more content by nature of random encounters and likely with smaller sized ship gangs.
While you can rageroll in this environment, it is now inherently more dangerous. As a smaller group that enjoys a more isolated lifestyle, many of these changes are troublesome. I do, however, potentially see the design goal here and think that in the end it would be a positive change for WH space in general promoting more people in space which is always a positive thing. |
Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nox Arnoux wrote:You push this change through, and no one will commit capitals into someone else's system ever again. The odds are already stacked heavily in favour of home defenders, why make it even more lopsided?
In the interests of providing the devs with information that they don't appear to have, how often do you commit multiple capitals into a hostile system during a fight?
|
Kadm
Catfish Gumbo Try Rerolling
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
I like this change and think these numbers are perfectly acceptable. This will make people much more hesitant to just try and roll away hostiles. |
|
Snakes-On-A-Plane
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
I'm not trying to flame anyone here, but I feel it is my duty to correct some erroneous perceptions, and level a howitzer at your spin control.
Quote:which caused some consternation among parts of the wormhole community. That is false. Consternation was caused among all parts of the wormhole community. C1 through C6.
If you are allowed to draw the conclusion that it was one segment, then you can also allow yourself to marginalize that segment. But your statement was simply false. Some small few did like the idea, but the vast majority of players, in all areas of J-space, did not. |
MD74
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 14:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
You guys wanted "reasonable feedback"?
Here, have some:
NO! |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
184
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Traiori wrote:Gospadin wrote:Personally, I think the 8.7km for an Orca feels about right.
It's 3.7km out of jump-back range at worst, and at best it's in range. On average, assuming 200m/s with MWD, I have to protect my Orca for about 7 seconds to get it back into jump range.
I should probably invest in a better cloak for it. =P It's 11.7km on average, 8.7km to jump range at worst (was the orca plated/mwd'd I wonder?). Read the devblog more carefully. At 200m/s with MWD, that's 40 seconds. Once again, you'd have to warp off/on the hole to get fastest method (I think? I haven't done the exact maths on this one though, as my primary concern is dreads/carriers)
Okay, yea, I misread.
So 8.7km @ 250m/s is 35 seconds plus acceleration time for me, call it 45 seconds. Hrm. That's quite a bit harder, but probably still something I can stomach. Would definitely want/need an off-grid but close bookmark to lower risk, though it'd take longer to roll. |
WoAz
Dark Mason Society
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
This makes committing 1 or 2 dreads and a triage carrier for a capital brawl nearly impossible for dread refits, as they'll almost always land out of the 5km refit range. Dropping a mobile depot isn't a solution in these fights, as any competent WH entity will prime them before they can come offline.
The ability for carriers and dreads to weave through their cycles and refit is one of the more enjoyable aspects of WH Capital PvP. It's essentially obsolete on the small-gang level in K-Space due to ever growing blobs and dread/super capable entities, and would kill it for attackers here. |
Arestris
Aurora Armaments The Bastion
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nice change at all! I really like it. Gone are the times where there was no risk at all, when closing a WH. And while it for sure need a lil bit more effort in future, I think the numbers are absolutly fine. |
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
149
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kadm wrote:I like this change and think these numbers are perfectly acceptable. This will make people much more hesitant to just try and roll away hostiles.
Where as id like to roll to more hostiles, this just means slowing up the process no end when trying to roll, by the time yo have done 3 holes using the new meathod, you would have been able to do around 6 or 7 depending on warps and speed. All i can now see happining is a 6 bs fleet now becoming the standard for hole rolling, no more cap traps, and a lot less pew on holes, as an attacking fleet has no clue where they will be in relation to other parts of there fleet.
So now the only use for caps is now home defence and pve, while the orca is now just a mining boost ship, so why would you wantto remove on-hole pvp, as this is what WILL happen twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
|
Chitsa Jason
Narwhals Ate My Duck. Narwhals Ate My Duck
1272
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
There are many good arguments why this change is good and why this change is bad.
I do like the change however as someone pointed out previously it will be harder for higher class people to bring in carriers + dreads for a fight as they will not be able to refit. If there would be a possibility for all the ships to spawn in same random direction for their designated ranges and dread + carrier ranges would be the same I would be happy. Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me |
FistyMcBumBardier
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
68
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Good change +1 |
Nox Arnoux
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
59
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Traiori wrote:Nox Arnoux wrote:You push this change through, and no one will commit capitals into someone else's system ever again. The odds are already stacked heavily in favour of home defenders, why make it even more lopsided? In the interests of providing the devs with information that they don't appear to have, how often do you commit multiple capitals into a hostile system during a fight?
We commit the maximum number of capitals to every major wormhole engagement that takes place in someone else's home system. This accounts for the vast majority of the wormhole engagement against other wormhole entities by NoHo in the last 6-8 months. |
Lamhoofd Hashur
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Besides the points noted before by Traiori I would like to point out two other (maybe unintended) side effects.
1. Using multiple carriers in any fight will become useless. The goal of having multiple carriers is most of the times to have the ability to refit of each other and thus become more versatile. Similar to this sometimes carriers are brought in to support dreads so they can refit as well.
By causing capitals to be far apart from each other this gameplay is (mostly) taken away from the group who jumps into the other one. The 'defender' has the time to setup their caps in the way they want. Thus resulting in a benefit for camping the WH until the other guys jump in, even more then currently is the case already.
2. Using multiple dreads will become more powerful. Since dreads are not cluttered together anymore they (in general) will be able to shoot subcaps better, since you will be unable to lower your angular for multiple dreads at the same time. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 .. 81 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |