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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 18 post(s) |
Laurici
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
61
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:14:00 -
[151] - Quote
blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(
^QFT
An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling.
For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.
|
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:15:00 -
[152] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:CCP Fozzie, you wrote in your post that you support emergent gameplay. well, rolling is emergent gameplay and is here to stay. therefore, i propose that making it harder and more annoying is not in your interest. i understand that you want to make shutting oneself in harder, but making the 'door' waste more time and effort is not a good way to do it.
i'm sure this has been proposed over and over already, but why don't we try going the opposite route: create a relatively cheap, quick and reliable way to close a wormhole (such as a deployable or a specialized drone etc.). you could control rage-rolling by progressively increasing the respawn time on statics and you could reduce the safety of 'locked in' people by favoring systems that have been closed off with a higher chance of incoming wandering connections.
I would prefer a 'Mass Bomb' launched from a bomber, like a void bomb, the trick would be to balance it to make it useable and not abuseable. (best of luck)
|
Xaphanie Xoros
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:15:00 -
[153] - Quote
Laurici wrote:blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( ^QFT An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling. For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.
This ^^ |
Adedaughtus
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:16:00 -
[154] - Quote
Laurici wrote:blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( ^QFT An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling. For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.
This is probably the best idead ive read in this entire thread so far |
pewpewforU
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:17:00 -
[155] - Quote
Laurici wrote:blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( ^QFT An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling. For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.
+1 for visibility |
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:17:00 -
[156] - Quote
I have to agree with what was said earlier...
Scrap this part of the proposed changes and we will be hailing this as the best expansion ever! |
Helgur
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:18:00 -
[157] - Quote
Laurici wrote:blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( ^QFT An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling. For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.
Not emptyquoting |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
71
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:19:00 -
[158] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:CCP Fozzie, you wrote in your post that you support emergent gameplay. well, rolling is emergent gameplay and is here to stay. therefore, i propose that making it harder and more annoying is not in your interest. i understand that you want to make shutting oneself in harder, but making the 'door' waste more time and effort is not a good way to do it..
Rage rolling could also be look at as a player deterministic result of inadequate wormhole spawn rates and lack of w-space connectivity. You rage roll to find shallow content on your own terms because the content you are currently finding is not adequate.
EVE perhaps should be a place where deep chains exist through dynamic spawn mechanisms where organic encounters occur from exploration, not static rolling. If your static, increased inbound connections, and the holes connected to you offer a depth of connections, would that not be a better alternative and more engaging play for players than smashing ships through a wormhole repeatedly?
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
758
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:20:00 -
[159] - Quote
Some of you have cottoned onto the "emergent gameplay" angle. Emergent gameplay, while extremely cool, is also not sacrosanct. CCP is under no obligation to maintain emergent gameplay.
For examples of this, see the "Faction Five" Forex scheme -- while clearly emergent gameplay, it was also extremely harmful for the game and needed to be excised.
I dare suggest that intentionally exhausting wormholes to increase the amount of territory available for farming and raiding may fall into a similar category, that it is allowing wormhole space to support increasingly large, but increasingly fewer groups, raising the barrier of entry into w-space in the process. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Reve Uhad
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:20:00 -
[160] - Quote
Let us not forget, the events of Clarion Call 3 most likely would not have occurred with this mechanic in place. |
|
Sjaandi HyShan
EVE University Ivy League
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:22:00 -
[161] - Quote
Why not change it from spawn distance to spawn speed, similar to station undocks? This would allow smart players to use webs+sensor boosters or the lack of them to control engagement range.
Make it so that the ships will naturally slow down (and be able to stop) to the ranges desired, while allowing coordinated players to use fitting choices to have the ability to adjust the range the ship actually reaches.
This allows the following gameplay:
- Webs and (remote) sensor boosters can be combined to allow small ships to slow big ones down, or big ships to lock each other and slow themselves down. This allows brawling/rep fleets to stay in range, at the cost in needing to fit webs/sensor boosters or field additional ships with these fitted.
- Sniper fleets can be more effectively countered by instead using the speed boost to close to a more suitable engagement range (use a MWD or afterburner as soon as spawned)
On a side note, I think that the suggestion people are giving of small ships should appear farther from the hole is bad because it makes Covert Ops ships invulnerable, as they will be spawned far enough away to immediately cloak and avoid bubbles. This combined with the new WH-WH connections would allow Covert Ops ships to effectively be immune to camps of any kind. |
Cedeves XVII
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:22:00 -
[162] - Quote
This change is going to have far ranging damages to wormholers. On one hand they talk about making it harder to completly close off your home, but then they make it harder for those searching for fights to find them by rage rolling, nullifying much of the decreased safety.
I am far more worried about the changes to use of Caps under threat. - Deploying even a single triage carrier will be a full commitle without the ability to evac the capital unless you win the fight. - No longer will it be possible to use carriers to refit other caps when attacking, however defenders, even outside of their home, but just taking up the defensive possition having the other side jump into them will be able to refit caps.
Further people will no longer be able to combat roll their holl in many situations, removing a hugh amount of tactics further increasign the value of more numbers. In addition to making it harder to cut an enemy fleet in half you can't roll away from a fight you dont want to take, you may think this is good people will take more fights, but instead people will just POS up and go play other games.
TL;DR: RIP offensive use of caps, and thanks CCP i have been meaning to catch up on other games while blue balling my enemies. |
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:26:00 -
[163] - Quote
Oreamnos Amric wrote:Surely the way to increase the chance of conflict in w-space is to make it easier to roll a wormhole rather than harder. Yes this means farmers can roll away their own static but they have no control over other groups rage rolling a K162 in their direction. Assuming farming groups don't outnumber combat-ready groups then a greater churn of K162s means more possibility of conflict.
Unless CCPs actual, unstated, goal is to reduce rage-rolling for fights...
I still think the better way to increase fights would be to reduce the spawn distance to 0km for all ships, all jumps, removing the ability to instantly cloak up after jumping. Instead of focusing on catching people during rolling, the focus would be on catching anyone jumping through at any time.
It would make scouting a little more dangerous (which, frankly, it should be), it would have no significant impact on hole-rolling mechanics, and it would mean more small-scale pvp opportunities. What's not to like? |
Murashj
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:29:00 -
[164] - Quote
blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(
What he said Gåæ |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:29:00 -
[165] - Quote
Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.
I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory Fidelas Constans
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:31:00 -
[166] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Rage rolling could also be look at as a player deterministic result of inadequate wormhole spawn rates and lack of w-space connectivity. You rage roll to find shallow content on your own terms because the content you are currently finding is not adequate.
I think this hits the nail on the head. People rageroll to find content. Give them content a different way. We need to keep people from being able to do this over and over...
People roll WH holes also to provide safety to themselves because they don't want the risk. That is easy solution because WH space is risky and should stay. |
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:32:00 -
[167] - Quote
Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:33:00 -
[168] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:33:00 -
[169] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. They want WH space to be like null. |
Zasamael
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:33:00 -
[170] - Quote
This is sh&t !!! Those changes will kill small and medium corps&alliance in wh space. |
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biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
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Posted - 2014.08.06 17:34:00 -
[171] - Quote
Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know.
Sitting posd up or logging out when someone enters your system .... Yea nice try. |
DRERZEWERZISH
THE GWG
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:35:00 -
[172] - Quote
Actually this isn't such a bad idea.
Now my larger ships won't be stuck on one side of a wormhole unable to cloak should the need arise. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3636
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:35:00 -
[173] - Quote
Random thought:
drop paired micro jump units. get more than 150KM away. warp back. Not cheap, admittedly, but you guys are rich, right? Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Karash Amerius
Sutoka
192
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:35:00 -
[174] - Quote
I get the sense that CCP really wants more groups to "commit" to going through a hole and all that entails; doubt there will be much retraction from this stated goal.
But the changes to distance is pretty drastic and will have the opposite effect than intended...people simply will go inactive.
This might be a stupid idea but here goes: Keep the changes you propose...but provide a separate and new way to roll holes that does not require jumping through them. Maybe a capital fitted module (insert generic space magic name here) that fits on a Roq that can Roll a hole in 5 to 10 minutes without needing to jump through it?
Just not seeing how both camps can be satisfied here...unless this change is scrapped all together, which probably the best course of action. Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:36:00 -
[175] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know. Sitting posd up or logging out when someone enters your system .... Yea nice try. So, in order for it to "effect us", we have to be consuming the content on your terms? Sorry, but that is not how it works. Your social norms mean nothing to us. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
912
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:36:00 -
[176] - Quote
Let me just summarise. Large corps are against this idea Medium corps are against this idea Small corps are against this idea Our CSM representative is against this idea even Bob is against this idea.
Please tell us who is in favour of this idea again???
and why There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:37:00 -
[177] - Quote
Querns wrote:Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.
I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary.
As CCP themselves state, they don't intend to stick to a design they made 5 years ago if players themselves found a better, more ingenious use for it (barring actual abuse, which this is not or they would have stated that matter-of-factly). |
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:38:00 -
[178] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Let me just summarise. Large WH corps are against this idea Medium WH corps are against this idea Small Wh corps are against this idea Our WH CSM representative is against this idea even Bob is against this idea. Please tell us who is in favour of this idea again??? and why A large null sec alliance that is not allowed in WH space. |
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:39:00 -
[179] - Quote
Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know. Sitting posd up or logging out when someone enters your system .... Yea nice try. So, in order for it to "effect us", we have to be consuming the content on your terms? Sorry, but that is not how it works. Your social norms mean nothing to us.
You don't deploy caps unless you are running sites. These changes don't effect you.
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Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
80
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:39:00 -
[180] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Random thought: drop paired micro jump units. get more than 150KM away. warp back. Not cheap, admittedly, but you guys are rich, right?
We're rich, but that's mostly because we're not stupid enough to lose money in the billions of isk region on a regular basis.
It's faster for us just to burn interceptors and web-warp dreads and such than to use MJU's. |
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