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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Moe Lesture
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
22
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Posted - 2014.08.06 18:18:00 -
[61] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:Would it be possible for it to be made scannable when a ship lands on grid with the wormhole rather than on first jump. The time difference would be very small, but the difference that the people in the parent hole can't just warp to the wormhole and start it's life cycle without ever making it scannable on the other side. I feel that makes things a little bit too safe for wormhole residents in general, even though I am on myself.
People wanting to close all align and warp in same tunnel.
People wanting dreads on the hole align with their subcaps and gangwarp, using the dread warp tunnel.
People landing on the hole now trigger the k162 and signature to appear. Scout and dps fleet are already there ready to pounce.
Also changes the difference between a wormhole's lifetime and the time it appears. sig here |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
209
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Posted - 2014.08.06 18:19:00 -
[62] - Quote
Good change.
To all those going "this would mean less connectivity"
Did you even read the blog? They'll be significantly increasing the volume of random wormholes. Yes they're not all going to get spawned, but you can spawn the ones on your side. It'll be good :) |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
151
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Posted - 2014.08.06 18:23:00 -
[63] - Quote
I would prefer that the k 162 open after some period of time even if nobody falls through it. Sometimes when we open our static we find an empty hole filled with sites and only one wormhole signature. When that happens currently we have to choose between putting a scout on grid to watch it (which opens it if it is not already open) and not putting a scout there and wondering if it is closed. That sort of choice is one of the things which makes eve interesting. The ability to sit and watch it directly without opening it seems too generous to the defender.
With this change the correct action is to always have a scout on each hole while before it was a choice that mattered. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2839
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Posted - 2014.08.06 18:39:00 -
[64] - Quote
I like this idea alot. I do high sec exploration, and one thing you quickly learn is wormholes are the vermin of the sky. With this change there will be fewer of them and less clutter to scan through. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Dasani Waters
Hard Knocks Inc.
27
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Posted - 2014.08.06 18:40:00 -
[65] - Quote
From a group-interaction perspective, this change would have a net effect of reducing the number of such interactions.
1. This change would reduce the number of connections in wormhole space, as people will not jump into an outgoing wormhole if it looks dangerous or undesirable. In particular, the number of K-Space to W-Space connections would be adversely affected.
2. Groups that have closed all incoming and outgoing wormholes and are trying to PVE in isolation are able to do so in greater safety. Consider a hostile scout in a PVE group's home system. Under the current system, the group needs to actively watch d-scan for probes to see if the scout is trying to scan his way out and bring in a hostile fleet. Under the new system the group could easily leave someone by the hole and simply listen for wormhole fire.
3. The risk to an isolated (ie all wormholes closed and static watched) PVE group from rage-rollers is only marginally increased by a reduction of 10 seconds in reaction time. Under the current system, the PVE group's reaction window is the time it takes for the hostile scout to warp to his static, the time it takes for him to pinpoint the fleet's location, and the time it takes for the hostile fleet to land. Because rage-rolling fleets are usually at the ready, their fleet is always at the static by the time the scout has pinpointed their target's location. Therefore, the new system would reduce the PVE group's reaction window by the time it takes for the hostile scout to land on his static (about 10 seconds). Everything else would essentially remain the same.
Thus this change would reduce the number of wormhole connections (a source of player interaction), reduce the risk from in-system hostile scouts (another source of player interaction), and only marginally increase the risk from rolling fleets. The number of potential player interactions would decrease overall.
I would suggest having non-static wormholes spawn their outgoing and K162 signatures concurrently while having static wormholes keep their current behavior. This system, combined with an increase in non-static wormholes would lead to an increased number of connections. And because not all new wormholes guarantee someone was on the other side (ie K162 from a nonstatic wormhole), w-space groups would be tempted to become complacent and thus more vulnerable to attack. Spawning the sister K162 for static wormholes concurrently is not advised, as that would encourage people to leave them critical instead of closing them altogether. |
Mindraak
Points Mean Prizes Genesis II
9
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Posted - 2014.08.06 18:42:00 -
[66] - Quote
I think only time will show if this is good or bad. I believe it will decrease the connectivity of higher class WHs to k-space because people are generaly "scared" of c5 and c6 residents. This may not be true for null sec but definitely is for low and high.
On the other hand it gives you more time to gather fleet members and less time for the recieving side to react if a k162 appears which could result in more kills. this will probably result in me losing yet another moros :) |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
190
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Posted - 2014.08.06 18:46:00 -
[67] - Quote
As others have said too not having the k162 end spawn will basicly result in nullsec/bears never entering their wormholes thereby eliminating those connections.
How about making the k162 end spawn after 12-24 hours regardless. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
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Sanuki Sukuuvestaa
State War Academy Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2014.08.06 18:49:00 -
[68] - Quote
Like the idea, makes it more balanced between attacker and defender without giving one side a clear advantage... However, this combined with the new spawn-distance kind of acts counterproductive to each other i think. +1 for this, -1 for the spawn distance. |
Cirillith
Bean-shidh The Nameless Alliance
20
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Posted - 2014.08.06 18:56:00 -
[69] - Quote
First of all - Thank you CCP Fozzie for publishing that Devblog.
Now to the point :)
I think this is nice change and it will help with PvP and will raise some blood pleasure of PvE pilots ^^ |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
185
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:00:00 -
[70] - Quote
Budrick3 wrote:ExookiZ wrote:I think you should look at timers/ not applying this to K space wormholes. The vast majority of k spaces we find are K162s, and those will stop spawning since K-space residents rarely care about the WH, they see if its a shortcut, maybe goes where they want but rarely ever jump in.
Id hazard a guess that 90% of null--> WH space connections never open after this change, probably even higher. Wow....I didnt even think of how much of a pain in the arse it is going to be finding high sec and low sec connections. Absolutely the worst idea.
Please explain how does someone see if it's a shortcut without actually jumping through, and thus activating it? |
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Angelica Everstar
34
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:17:00 -
[71] - Quote
Good change - specially if you also add, that connections appear on both side after 10-15mins regardless for you warping to it or scanning it.
This would mean that you can make sneak attacks - super This means you can block of your WH (minus random INBOUND connections) - even better This means more connections in general, which in turn means more interactions - also super Any typos, spelling errors and bad grammer found, are free and yours to keep Current bond : PFA05 500b / Total 825b |
Dasani Waters
Hard Knocks Inc.
27
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:29:00 -
[72] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:Budrick3 wrote:ExookiZ wrote:I think you should look at timers/ not applying this to K space wormholes. The vast majority of k spaces we find are K162s, and those will stop spawning since K-space residents rarely care about the WH, they see if its a shortcut, maybe goes where they want but rarely ever jump in.
Id hazard a guess that 90% of null--> WH space connections never open after this change, probably even higher. Wow....I didnt even think of how much of a pain in the arse it is going to be finding high sec and low sec connections. Absolutely the worst idea. Please explain how does someone see if it's a shortcut without actually jumping through, and thus activating it?
Right click, show info. If it doesn't say it goes to hisec or lowsec, don't jump through. You can't use "show info" on it without warping to it first, so wormhole connections are spawned when they check to see if it's what they want. |
Galmalmin
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
27
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:31:00 -
[73] - Quote
Caveat, I am not currently living or working in Wormhole Space, nor have I.
I can understand the ability of an array that scans for and detects Worm Holes, being placed in a solar system to alert those in it that a Worm Hole has opened up. I can understand that array broadcasting that information to those in that system. That should be the end of CCP's involvement. A Worm Hole forms, has two ends, if one of those ends is in a system that has a detection array, it is detected and people can be notified. The detection array should be programed to be selective to whom it sends that information to. If Corp A installs a detection array, then they should be able to select only their corp and/or alliance to receive that information. If Corp B wants that information, they would need to install an array in that system as well.
Also, if the capsuleers entered the system via a Wormhole, there is no record of that entry, hence no notification in local as the Gate did not record and or transmit that information ( I believe this is current functionality, it should never be modified). Once that capsuleer makes a transmission, that transmission is detected in system (current functionality I believe). However, if not transmitted in local, local should just get a blank "unknown" added to it. This should also be true if entering a system via a cyno. Sure, your systems detected the cyno, but not who, if anyone, entered via that cyno.
For a particular type of Wormhole not being detected by the an array, OK, I get that. But for that array to suddenly detect it when someone transits it... I say BS. Either that type of Wormhole is detectable, or it is not. If the Wormhole is not detectable, how was it found in the first place? I do not buy the argument about fairness. Something either is, or it is not. Let those in system figure out how to deal with the situation, not CCP.
You want a Wormhole to handle any amount of mass, but it collapses after an approximate timeframe, no problem. You want a Wormhole to collapse after an approximate amount of mass has transited it, no problem. You want a Wormhole to have a combination of those, sure, but either it is detectable or it is not.
Space is NOT safe. Wormhole space, even less so. Live with it.
Galmalmin |
ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
36
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:43:00 -
[74] - Quote
Newt BlackCompany wrote:Also, unoccupied wh's will never have the k162's open, decreasing wh connectivity. But those don't open up now anyway , right? Since there's noone jumping to the initiating end, the K162 never appears.
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Ziirn
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
31
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:46:00 -
[75] - Quote
Will decrease k-space wh's opening in wh's. K-people will just not jump wh's that are not direct null>hs etc. They have to warp to see where WH leads and therefor the WH spawn. If that is removed and only jump will spawn the wh on other side there will be waaaaay less of em. |
Aggymon
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
0
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:49:00 -
[76] - Quote
It would appear to make more sense for this change to be bought in so that;
WH to WH connections, the K side is hidden until the WH is jumped.
K Space (as in WH's that spawn in K space) to WH (K162) connections - both sides of the WH are visible as soon as the K space signature spawns or, the current mechanic is kept.
The null bears that the majority of WH residents spend their time pewing will quickly work out that not opening the 'dangerous unknown' WH's they find means we can't get to their ratting Carriers :( |
Loris Fritz
Negative Density No Response
11
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:52:00 -
[77] - Quote
I like the idea that the attacker gets just as much time as the defender now when opening up a new wh. I just hope that the new random wormholes will make up for the fact that people won't open wh's by jumping through them all the time. If not you may concider adding a timer after the wh spawned to go ahead and open up the k162. |
Kasimir Wulf
Ubiquitous Hurt Exodus.
15
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Posted - 2014.08.06 20:07:00 -
[78] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:There will be far fewer incoming connections from k-space, as more people will warp the wormhole, look at what space is on the other side, and choose not to jump through.
This will reduce the connectedness of w-space more generally.
yeah this is what i'm most worried about, i know most wormholers will probably be happy because they hate kspace, blah blah blah. but there are also a lot of WH corps out there and are dependent on kspace for exploration/PVP. but whats even worse is that now nullsec carebears will have every WH bookmark in their region, not jump through it and be 100% safe from any WH corp roams. the only people that benefit from your proposed changes are nullsec carebears.
my proposal is that if some one warps to the WH and doesn't jump through it that after say 15 minutes to 1 hour(make it random) the k162 spawns on the other side.
Loris Fritz wrote:I like the idea that the attacker gets just as much time as the defender now when opening up a new wh. I just hope that the new random wormholes will make up for the fact that people won't open wh's by jumping through them all the time. If not you may concider adding a timer after the wh spawned to go ahead and open up the k162.
in reality it doesn't change a thing, because the person that finds it still needs to scout the WH before sending a fleet in, so one way or another the residents already have all the time they need to prepare. what it does do is contradict everything they are trying to do by making WH's more accessable, because maybe 1 in 10 people that scan down WH's and warp to them actually jump into them. thus meaning you make WH accessibility worse, not better. |
Rob Cobb
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
12
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Posted - 2014.08.06 21:01:00 -
[79] - Quote
So in essence... this is reducing the number of null/low/high connections spawning from the k-space side, reducing targets.
This is reducing the Wh systems in a chain and the branches of a chain, so again.. reducing targets.
why not just stop wormhole signatures appearing instantly in the scanner and bring back the days of having to mash the scan button? people who put in effort are still safish, others who dont will find they are dead when ships start landing on grid.. i see this update as making wormholes too safe, and the mass>spawn distance change is broken and not a compromise.
Checking calendar to make sure its not april 1st. |
J0HN SHEPPARD
The Icarus Expedition The Daedalus Imperium
0
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Posted - 2014.08.06 22:35:00 -
[80] - Quote
+1 I like this change :D Keep up the good work |
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Loan--Wolf
Ace's And 8's
16
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Posted - 2014.08.06 22:51:00 -
[81] - Quote
this is a bad idea i relay like it for what it was met to fix but unless i misunderstood it the k162 from a c1 2 or 3 will not show up until you jump out that means high sec connections will not be opened
i live in a c1 with a static high i scan the high ever day i diced i want to rat there is only one sig i scan that sig jump to it book mark it pos up reship into a rating ship go rat my happy little ass off knowing i am safe
ok and yes with the old functions it was still easy enouff to do just dont warp to it and it didnt spawn but untill recently that was not confirmed |
Simsung Padecain
Hard Knocks Inc.
34
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Posted - 2014.08.06 22:51:00 -
[82] - Quote
A timer seems reasonable, 5 or 10 minutes after warping to the new WH, the K162 opens. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
520
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Posted - 2014.08.06 22:53:00 -
[83] - Quote
The real concern is one that was introduced with Odyssey in the first place: instant and free intel about what is happening in W-space. We know this is something that clearly concerns you guys given primarily the removal of API kill info from W-space. This change addresses the symptom, safety for the PvE fleets, but not the underlying root issue. It also adds issues of its own.
In wormhole space, what we want, what you guys verbalize on the forums, and what the lore seems to support, is more unknown in W-space. Applied to this situation and signatures and the Discovery Scanner in particular, is that sigs and anomalies at 0% should not appear until scanned. Whether in the overlay in space, or whether in the scanner window, it should require probes to identify signatures in W-space. A value of 0% means you don't know anything about it, including that it even exists.
Only in W-space. Everywhere else, this is fine. It encourages exploration, and it encourages people to be exposed to wormholes more and more, ultimately leading to the increased traffic we saw when Odyssey landed.
W-space, however, should maintain its reputation for being a challenge and for being a place of unknowns. What challenge is there if you know, jumping in, what is there and what isn't unless you can already warp to it?
Because of the concerns over loss of connectivity in W-space from this, the planned change should not go into effect. Instead, as we have requested, the Discovery Scanner and the system overlay should be adjusted.
Because it would be different, some notice in the scanner window indicating that the scanner is not completely functional in W-space should be made, with the suggestion of dropping probes to fully recon the system.
The reason the timer option is bad, and that this whole idea should be scrapped, is that it removes risk. If I log into my C5 system, and I'm the first one online today and getting prepared for our farming session for the night, I'll scan the system. If I see only one wormhole, I could warp to it, see that it hasn't begun its natural cycle (or see that it has), and have a reasonable idea of whether the K162 exists, having a reasonable idea of my level of safety. I could also warp to additional wormholes, see that they are random outbound holes and thus also likely safe, and ignore them.
If, instead, I know that by warping to it that I will spawn the K162, I'm faced with a dilemna (ie, an interesting choice): do I warp to it, possibly spawning it, to verify that it hasn't already been opened, or do I take the chance that someone hasn't rolled into my system while no one was on, opened it, and then rolled off, leaving my now-opened static as the only wormhole in the system? What about that second wormhole? Is it a K162 or is it a random outbound? I have to warp to it, opening it, to find out.
Suddenly there is risk added that has less chance of existing with this change, and will most likely lead to collapsing that hole, also possibly leading to explosions.
Related to this, please also change the type of Ore sites back to signatures, instead of anomalies.
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Loan--Wolf
Ace's And 8's
16
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Posted - 2014.08.06 22:55:00 -
[84] - Quote
Mindraak wrote:I think only time will show if this is good or bad. I believe it will decrease the connectivity of higher class WHs to k-space because people are generaly "scared" of c5 and c6 residents. This may not be true for null sec but definitely is for low and high.
On the other hand it gives you more time to gather fleet members and less time for the recieving side to react if a k162 appears which could result in more kills. this will probably result in me losing yet another moros :)
when i lived in null i was shocked at how many times i heard dont go in that wh it is active
i had come from a c5/c5 so active holes was nothing new to me but it scared the hell ouf of a lot of null bears
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Christopher AET
hirr Northern Coalition.
772
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Posted - 2014.08.06 23:02:00 -
[85] - Quote
While I understand the idea of nullsec players warping to a WH and not activating it is a concern I do believe this will be compensated with the overall increase in wormholes throughout eve as referenced in the other blog. Overall I think this will balance AND give players more choice. Good work CCP I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance. |
Dark Armata
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
131
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Posted - 2014.08.06 23:12:00 -
[86] - Quote
Love this change!
Really means you don't have to give yourself away while scouting a chain just by checking where wormholes go.
Can see a fair few connections just not being made (especially K to J).
More connections are good and K162s are connections too.
Then again curiosity may win out and scouts will jump just to see lol.
W-Space WAS Best Space*
*Until CCP decided W-Space should be the next null.
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3593
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Posted - 2014.08.06 23:27:00 -
[87] - Quote
This change is half arsed and generally just poorly thought out. now it gives too much advantage to the scanner.
would it REALLY be THAT difficult to just make the new WHs scannable on probes but not show on the stupid auto scan array? seriously, it's not that complicated. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
921
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:29:00 -
[88] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:Budrick3 wrote:ExookiZ wrote:I think you should look at timers/ not applying this to K space wormholes. The vast majority of k spaces we find are K162s, and those will stop spawning since K-space residents rarely care about the WH, they see if its a shortcut, maybe goes where they want but rarely ever jump in.
Id hazard a guess that 90% of null--> WH space connections never open after this change, probably even higher. Wow....I didnt even think of how much of a pain in the arse it is going to be finding high sec and low sec connections. Absolutely the worst idea. Please explain how does someone see if it's a shortcut without actually jumping through, and thus activating it?
one can click on the description and see what class of Jspace it is going,the colour tells you exactly, one can look at the colour of KS exits and see the region. whilst it does not tell you how many jumps from Jita A KS player just isn't going to tralala into a c6...... There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
921
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:36:00 -
[89] - Quote
ArmEagle Kusoni wrote:Newt BlackCompany wrote:Also, unoccupied wh's will never have the k162's open, decreasing wh connectivity. But those don't open up now anyway , right? Since there's noone jumping to the initiating end, the K162 never appears. the difference is that warping to it currently opens the wormhole, you may hate the hole, but it is opened. Now when someone in null jumps to a hole that originates there, they can look at it hate it and never warp through. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
923
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:55:00 -
[90] - Quote
Two step wrote:I agree with the above posters, though I think 4 hours is far, far too long. I would love to see the K162 spawn after 30 minutes or so. There is a balance between those wishing to do activities such as PI, Mining, running sites, etc etc, 30 minutes means they never have the opportunity to do any of these jobs. They need to earn isk to Pew Pew too. Small corps may only have very few on at different times of day, they simply do not have the resources to deal with that short a timer.
4 hours gives a reasonable time and a reasonable balance but prevents them from just never opening it. It keeps the balance of K162 and It preserves the balance that CCP have tried to maintain.
If their home Static can never be isolated even for a short time, they will just move out, and consider they now have wandering frigate holes and C4's now have a second hole to contend with.
They still need to be alert and aware to contend with these. If people are always in the POS there is no content.
The desirability or lack of, with Making holes instaspawn is another argument for another day. 30 minutes is effectively that. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
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