Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:07:00 -
[121] - Quote
Make sig visible for both sides at the same time. let the vigilant ones prevail. |
Viscis Breeze
No Vacancies
47
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 07:46:00 -
[122] - Quote
As a smallish C5 corporation trying to grow this change is quite difficult for us to deal with. We actively dscan/probe during site operations and generally (with the current system) if a competent group rolls into us we can be tackled before exiting siege. With this change, despite being actively looking for new signatures, we are given even less response time to deal with the impending threat.
On the flip side of this, for people running sites who are not locked in siege, its all too easy to just POS back up when a new signature appears.
I would advocate a return to the old system (as I'm sure quite a few others would support) but with a slight tweak to allow for signatures appearing in the scanner:
1. New K162 signatures appear when someone warps to the wormhole (as it currently does). 2. The delay before these appear is down to the pilot: 2a. If the pilot has probes launched and is scanning, the signature is picked up on the next cycle end. 2b. If the pilot is simply using the overlay with no probes, the signature is automatically detected after about a minute.
I believe this both rewards vigilance but at the same time isn't a significant nerf or buff. Recruitment: http://bit.ly/1r4G5Pv Website: http://www.no-vacancies.net/ Channel: No Vacancies
|
Sniped Hakomairos
Dzicy Alkoholicy YARRR and CO
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:44:00 -
[123] - Quote
That change make high risk for c5 ratters. It can lead c5 resident to move out of wh because it's too risky to get ganked by fleet of t3.
I'm as c2 resident for my all time i spend with that game think it's bad idea too. Nullsec players don;t even bother to look on new sig. That k162 can lead, as few of players sad, to block new connections for us. Many of wh's are non occupied. That means if noone from other side scan in and jump to it we will never get that connection it will make more diffuciult to find new wh's with for example high sec connection. Which are quite rare for now specially that lucky near jita/amarr.
Idea of 30 min delay or even 20 it's great solution. If new sig spawn it takes 1-2 min to scan it. 5-7 to get all ready and you have plenty of time to jump and gank all on the other side.
If you make that way which you proposed it's only make us wormholers to suffer with finding new connections. Take for example pod express to high sec. Now it take sometimes 1-2 day for high sec enternance in future it will get more difficult to get back to action.
|
Swidgen
Republic University Minmatar Republic
149
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:17:00 -
[124] - Quote
The best part of this devblog is that we finally have, after all these years, confirmation from CCP that the K162 in the destination system spawns only when the originating side is warped to. Many suspected that was the case and 99.999% of the anecdotal evidence pointed to that being the case. But we never knew for sure, and even though many would have bet their lives that it was so, there was always some nimrod popping up now and then telling us we were wrong. This is my favorite devblog in a long long time |
Rob Cobb
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:35:00 -
[125] - Quote
Sniped Hakomairos wrote:That change make high risk for c5 ratters. It can lead c5 resident to move out of wh because it's too risky to get ganked by fleet of t3. I'm as c2 resident for my all time i spend with that game think it's bad idea too. Nullsec players don;t even bother to look on new sig. That k162 can lead, as few of players sad, to block new connections for us. Many of wh's are non occupied. That means if noone from other side scan in and jump to it we will never get that connection it will make more diffuciult to find new wh's with for example high sec connection. Which are quite rare for now specially that lucky near jita/amarr. Idea of 30 min delay or even 20 it's great solution. If new sig spawn it takes 1-2 min to scan it. 5-7 to get all ready and you have plenty of time to jump and gank all on the other side. If you make that way which you proposed it's only make us wormholers to suffer with finding new connections. Take for example pod express to high sec. Now it take sometimes 1-2 day for high sec enternance in future it will get more difficult to get back to action.
then you dont know how to rage roll, but dont worry, ccp is killing the abilty to do that too so no point learning ;)
|
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:31:00 -
[126] - Quote
The immense danger this will cause for many higher sec wormhole residents may lead to more corps giving up their wormholes and then leaving the game altogether. When you have 80 billion or more of capitals in sites, all of which are running triage or siege modules, that brief moment when a new sig appears is where plans change suddenly and everyone has to rethink what they're doing to stay alive. It could be a lowsec explorer that found a sig and wanted to see what kind of wormhole was being lead to, or it could be a 30 man nullsec blob thirsting for WHer carcasses to adorn their captain's quarters back home. Even worse, it could be a C6 alliance with more guardians in their fleet than the defenders have capitals on field. Regardless, that moment of warning gives some small chance for a reaction, even if that reaction happens 5 minutes later due to timers. Robbing folks of even that much time means C5 corps that are not huge alliances will become chattel for the hordes of larger corps that are bored of making billions of ISK a site and want some PVP to go with their mountains of ISK.
Now, all that said, there is another potential I foresee from this. Wormholes are not jumped into very often once the stats for whats on the other side are hinted at, so this means a majority of W-space connections are going to never happen in the first place. C3s may only have 1-2 connections. C5s might never see a nullsec K162 as it's easier to find a highsec/lowsec connection in a lower class wormhole. End result, perhaps this will create less need to roll holes, but when new wormhole sigs do appear a great deal more danger will be perceived from them. A downside is that the ability to get players back into higher class wormholes is going to be greatly reduced without the access from K-space connections. Guess it's time to feel bad for those guys in the C5s and C6s cause once podded, it could be weeks to get a new entrance to bring that player back in. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
212
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:36:00 -
[127] - Quote
I maintain - why can't you just remove the 'scovery scanner from W-space - if you want a reason - it's got something to do with no NPC stations to aid your ping , kinda like triangulation
that or make them spawn the k162 after a few hours, even if no-one jumped...... For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:32:00 -
[128] - Quote
Well I liked the old mechanic when signatures did not appear in dscan at all and we used deep space probes. |
Alicia Stormbringer
xLegion of the dammedx. Moose Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:45:00 -
[129] - Quote
Another pvp based idea sorry but you are trying to force everyone who lives in a wormhole to do pvp |
Space Wanderer
128
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:46:00 -
[130] - Quote
As a WH explorer I am rather concerned by the amount of interconnections that this new situation might sever.
Let me clarify:
As many explorers are aware, many scanned WHs turn out to be K162. This means that a large amount of wh connections are made by the exit points. While some of those exit points may have been created by people who actually jumped through the WH, I am fairly sure that many have been created by people who scanned the WH, warped to it, and then simply left seeing that it didn't suit his/her needs.
Suggestion: before pushing this change I strongly suggest to verify the portion of K162 that have been spawned by warps not followed by a jump. If a sizable portion of K162 haven't been spawned by ships who immediately jumped, this means that the change will effectively sever many WHs. Be wary of reducing WH interconnections.
Personally, I would just introduce some update lag (5/10 mins) into the scanner overlay. After all the scanner overlay has been introduced just to show people the goodies in their system. It won't hurt them to know about those goodies 5 mins later. As somebody else wrote above, let the vigilant ones (i.e. the guys who use probes instead of relying on the scanner overlay) prevail. |
|
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
10960
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:04:00 -
[131] - Quote
Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.
We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.
We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Shaklu
Mass Effect Enterprises Dark Knights of Eden
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:10:00 -
[132] - Quote
-1: This is 100% anti-PVE, and will make it almost impossible to have any security at all in WHs.
Perhaps if you allowed players to warp to the WH and it didn't spawn K162, but then after a second, or third or fifth warp to the WH it would, that would make huge fleets less likely to gather up and then explode into a system, killing everybody.
Or allow it to not spawn for 5 minutes and/or 5 warps to the WH - if you want to scout it down, and see what type it is, you can. If you want to pop 50 ships through it to gank whoever is on the other side with 0 warning, you can't
PVPers will fight PVPers whenever they can, or at least when it looks fair.. but PVE players will just die in droves - driving them out of WHs where CCP has a terrible lack of interesting PVE content. This is yet another "get in a huge corp or die" patch, it seems |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
745
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:28:00 -
[133] - Quote
Shaklu wrote:-1: This is 100% anti-PVE, and will make it almost impossible to have any security at all in WHs.
Perhaps if you allowed players to warp to the WH and it didn't spawn K162, but then after a second, or third or fifth warp to the WH it would, that would make huge fleets less likely to gather up and then explode into a system, killing everybody.
Or allow it to not spawn for 5 minutes and/or 5 warps to the WH - if you want to scout it down, and see what type it is, you can. If you want to pop 50 ships through it to gank whoever is on the other side with 0 warning, you can't
PVPers will fight PVPers whenever they can, or at least when it looks fair.. but PVE players will just die in droves - driving them out of WHs where CCP has a terrible lack of interesting PVE content. This is yet another "get in a huge corp or die" patch, it seems
lol this guy |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
210
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:38:00 -
[134] - Quote
this is another great change for the upcoming nullsec patch. this will allow us to make better use of all the wormholes we get in our ratting system (from that wh spawning upgrade) for both killing farming wormholers while at the same time keeping our ratters safe if we don't want to pvp.
+1 from me.
also what is all these wh people doing commenting on a nullsec patch? |
Ann Markson
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:50:00 -
[135] - Quote
The issue of less connectivity can occur, which is not ideal, as current connectivity feels fine (at least from my point of view).
The idea with a timer till it opens itself regardless also seems viable, especially to avoid people to completely lock down their hole, however it might be more interesting if that hole is slowly expanding to the other side, where ships flying through it would expand it to the size of the mass which has been flying through. See it as a cone, where the k162 side is the smaller one at first (not from total mass, but from fly through max mass.) but gets expanded with every ship flying through it till it reaches its maximum one time mass on both sides. If noone is flying through it should expand itself on that side with a natural speed.
The signature should be triggered after the time till normal expansion expired, or a ship flew through. This would give the triggering side more control over the hole, e.g. smaller groups would benefit from it, as only a (mass equal) force could follow them back to their side. Would add another variable to the game (Did the hole just occured naturally, or did it got triggered?) with the possibility of scouting/exploring to reveal the awnser.
Its disadvantage would be more server load, as the server would have to do that extra math (which shouldnt be too much however) as well as bigger groups not being able to commit their caps to the other side of the wh without expanding it first. |
Constans Macob
Satori Inc.
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:01:00 -
[136] - Quote
Why is this change being made? When scouting an unstable wormhole you warp to it, bookmark it while approaching and then jump. In a covert ops frig the reduced warning for the hunted parties from this change is a matter of seconds.
If the scouts are warping to the unstable wormhole, bookmarking it and then continuing to scout the current system rather than jumping through they're doing it wrong. They should bookmark the multiple unstable wormhole sigs (named differently so that nobody uses that bookmark for travel) then after scanning all sigs they should warp to the sig bookmark, remove the bookmark while in warp, upon landing bookmark the wormhole and jump through.
I don't see why this change is needed. Don't compensate for bad scouts with game mechanic changes. |
StarConquer212
Hard Knocks Inc.
213
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:34:00 -
[137] - Quote
whatever you change, no decrease in K-162's from null sec should be the end goal, if anything maybe slightly more.
Also love the mass jump mass thing, adds spice to w space rolling which is far too safe. Don't listen to the complete care bears that just want complete safety and no player interaction opportunity for months at a time. |
NoobMan
Hard Knocks Inc.
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:43:00 -
[138] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.
We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.
We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.
I haven't read all the other post in this thread so sorry if someone has already said this, but I think we all like the W-space-> W-space delayed spawning it gives us more control on our Statics. We are definitely concerned about less K162 incoming Null sec wormholes for PvP and less High sec incoming WH's for our logistical needs.
Would it be possible to keep the delayed spawn on the W-space-> W-space and have either a delayed timed (5mins w/e) spawn for K-space-> W-space holes or keep the current instant spawn mechanics?
Thanks you for spending time on us wormhole people this Release! We really appreciate you guys.
Operations Director of Hard K(n)ocks Inc. |-áRanked on zKill? |
Marox Calendale
Human League
28
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:00:00 -
[139] - Quote
Constans Macob wrote:Why is this change being made? When scouting an unstable wormhole you warp to it, bookmark it while approaching and then jump. In a covert ops frig the reduced warning for the hunted parties from this change is a matter of seconds.
If the scouts are warping to the unstable wormhole, bookmarking it and then continuing to scout the current system rather than jumping through they're doing it wrong. They should bookmark the multiple unstable wormhole sigs (named differently so that nobody uses that bookmark for travel) then after scanning all sigs they should warp to the sig bookmark, remove the bookmark while in warp, upon landing bookmark the wormhole and jump through.
I don't see why this change is needed. Don't compensate for bad scouts with game mechanic changes.
Because ist not made to compemsate bad Scout, but to give pvp fleets better time to prepair for rushing into a hole. Forget the Scout. Just wait until all fleet members arrive at the hole and then jump into with the whole fleet. 1 Bubble + 1 dps in each belt and each combat site and catch what is possible...
|
Ness Phase
Hard Knocks Inc.
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:53:00 -
[140] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.
We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.
We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.
+1 for setting a timer after someone warping to the hole. |
|
Qalix
Four Pillars Brothers of Tangra
291
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:05:00 -
[141] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.
We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.
We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide. Glad the feedback is helpful.
I would like to take the opportunity to reiterate a point that is related (even though a timer takes care of it) just to keep it in mind as you go through the permutations: if the sig never spawns, the residents of the hole get all the benefits of closing a wh entrance without actually having to close an entrance. Yes, fewer connections is bad for connectivity (that was tautological...) in a general "life on the open road" sense, but since many residents want to keep themselves isolated, that line of reasoning should be kept in mind. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
525
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:27:00 -
[142] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.
We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.
We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.
Meytal wrote:The real concern is one that was introduced with Odyssey in the first place: instant and free intel about what is happening in W-space. We know this is something that clearly concerns you guys given primarily the removal of API kill info from W-space. This change addresses the symptom, safety for the PvE fleets, but not the underlying root issue. It also adds issues of its own. You guys are adding more and more complexity to all of this. More moving parts means more canwill break requiring more dev time to fix and more unhappy players complete with whining and complaining.
The Odyssey scanner changes are recent, maybe even new code. There should still be devs on staff who understand it, perhaps even the original authors. Is it worth all of this extra complexity and potential for added developer debugging time to avoid checking the type of the new item that just appeared in the system, and only showing the "Cosmic Signature" items if it's in the K-space universe or at more than 0% scanned?
It means more people will be scanning. That's good. They should be scanning in W-space.
|
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:31:00 -
[143] - Quote
Meytal wrote:The real concern is one that was introduced with Odyssey in the first place: instant and free intel about what is happening in W-space. We know this is something that clearly concerns you guys given primarily the removal of API kill info from W-space. This change addresses the symptom, safety for the PvE fleets, but not the underlying root issue. It also adds issues of its own.
In wormhole space, what we want, what you guys verbalize on the forums, and what the lore seems to support, is more unknown in W-space. Applied to this situation and signatures and the Discovery Scanner in particular, is that sigs and anomalies at 0% should not appear until scanned. Whether in the overlay in space, or whether in the scanner window, it should require probes to identify signatures in W-space. A value of 0% means you don't know anything about it, including that it even exists.
Only in W-space. Everywhere else, this is fine. It encourages exploration, and it encourages people to be exposed to wormholes more and more, ultimately leading to the increased traffic we saw when Odyssey landed.
W-space, however, should maintain its reputation for being a challenge and for being a place of unknowns. What challenge is there if you know, jumping in, what is there and what isn't unless you can already warp to it?
Because of the concerns over loss of connectivity in W-space from this, the planned change should not go into effect. Instead, as we have requested, the Discovery Scanner and the system overlay should be adjusted.
Because it would be different, some notice in the scanner window indicating that the scanner is not completely functional in W-space should be made, with the suggestion of dropping probes to fully recon the system.
The reason the timer option is bad, and that this whole idea should be scrapped, is that it removes risk. If I log into my C5 system, and I'm the first one online today and getting prepared for our farming session for the night, I'll scan the system. If I see only one wormhole, I could warp to it, see that it hasn't begun its natural cycle (or see that it has), and have a reasonable idea of whether the K162 exists, having a reasonable idea of my level of safety. I could also warp to additional wormholes, see that they are random outbound holes and thus also likely safe, and ignore them.
If, instead, I know that by warping to it that I will spawn the K162, I'm faced with a dilemna (ie, an interesting choice): do I warp to it, possibly spawning it, to verify that it hasn't already been opened, or do I take the chance that someone hasn't rolled into my system while no one was on, opened it, and then rolled off, leaving my now-opened static as the only wormhole in the system? What about that second wormhole? Is it a K162 or is it a random outbound? I have to warp to it, opening it, to find out.
Suddenly there is risk added that has less chance of existing with this change, and will most likely lead to collapsing that hole, also possibly leading to explosions.
Related to this, please also change the type of Ore sites back to signatures, instead of anomalies.
This analysis is well thought out and spot on. Sadly, I fear it will fall on deaf ears, as CCP just seems hell bent on plowing forward with these changes, regardless of all the objections and suggestions for better alternatives. :( |
Qual
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:03:00 -
[144] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:Would it be possible for it to be made scannable when a ship lands on grid with the wormhole rather than on first jump. The time difference would be very small, but the difference that the people in the parent hole can't just warp to the wormhole and start it's life cycle without ever making it scannable on the other side. I feel that makes things a little bit too safe for wormhole residents in general, even though I am on myself.
+1
Spawning the other side when someone arrives on grid is a far better solution. This way a dedicated hunting group still keeps it edge, and the other hand holes will still be spawning due to normal searching, as you cant know the hole type without jumping on grid. |
Constans Macob
Satori Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:21:00 -
[145] - Quote
Marox Calendale wrote:Constans Macob wrote:Why is this change being made? When scouting an unstable wormhole you warp to it, bookmark it while approaching and then jump. In a covert ops frig the reduced warning for the hunted parties from this change is a matter of seconds.
If the scouts are warping to the unstable wormhole, bookmarking it and then continuing to scout the current system rather than jumping through they're doing it wrong. They should bookmark the multiple unstable wormhole sigs (named differently so that nobody uses that bookmark for travel) then after scanning all sigs they should warp to the sig bookmark, remove the bookmark while in warp, upon landing bookmark the wormhole and jump through.
I don't see why this change is needed. Don't compensate for bad scouts with game mechanic changes. Because ist not made to compemsate bad Scout, but to give pvp fleets better time to prepair for rushing into a hole. Forget the Scout. Just wait until all fleet members arrive at the hole and then jump into with the whole fleet. 1 Bubble + 1 dps in each belt and each combat site and catch what is possible...
So, you advise forming a fleet for an unknown target and then jump that fleet into an un-scouted hole.
Note to self, never join one of Marox Calendale's fleets. |
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:22:00 -
[146] - Quote
umnikar wrote:Well I liked the old mechanic when signatures did not appear in dscan at all and we used deep space probes.
Yup. Those mechanics worked fine for over 4 years, and clearly fell into the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" category. Yet they felt compelled to "fix" it in the Odyssey release anyway, and are now trying to throw more kluges into Hyperion to fix what was broken by the Odyssey "fix," rather than just admit they were wrong and revert it.
I attended both FanFest 2011 and 2013, and sat in on every w-space related forum, and the loud and clear message from the overwhelming majority in the room was: "Don't mess with wormhole space!" The devs and everyone agreed that it was one of the few things in Eve that was done right from the start. And yet here they are now mucking it all up. :(
Now, I would not mind some changes to spruce up w-space, but they should be related to content and what you can do in there, NOT to the mechanics and things that worked just fine. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:39:00 -
[147] - Quote
We asked for sigs to need to be scanned down with probes, you give us this. Is there a reason you just ignore the good suggestions we ask for? |
No Inspiration
Eldar Army
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 18:00:00 -
[148] - Quote
I for one like this change.
Kudos. |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
211
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 18:05:00 -
[149] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.
Nice! Best of both worlds then :) |
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 18:08:00 -
[150] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far. Keep it coming.
We completely agree that the potential decrease in available connections (especially to K-space) is an issue to consider heavily. Thanks to all of you who have brought it up.
We're doing some investigating into setting a timer that will make the sig visible eventually even if nobody travels through it, and we'll let you know what we decide.
So, does this mean you're not investigating any of the many alternative suggestions people have posted?
Ok, you let us know what you decide to ram down our throats, and we'll let you know when we decide to cancel our subscriptions and spend our money on Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous instead. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 .. 12 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |