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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
564
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 04:41:00 -
[31] - Quote
TomyLobo wrote:corbexx wrote:Jack Miton wrote:C4s are pretty high up there solo ISK/hour wise, second only to C5s. Doubling it is extremely over the top and no you should not be able to jump caps into C4s. C2s are FAR more important to address. In any case, it's being worked on. C4 sites are attually some of the best out there. How did you arrive at this conclusion? Have you tried to run a corp (5-10members) in a C4 with all corp members revenue coming from anoms alone? If one person were to solo all the sites then what exactly is left for the remaining corp members? I encourage you to approach this from a different standpoint. Don't just run a handful of sites then compare isk/hr. It just doesn't work that way. That approach would be sensible if wh sites were infinite but we all know they aren't.
Considering my alt corp is a 5 to 10 man corp who lives in a c4. most the isk is from sites although some do pi. Now on to the if one person runs all the sites, what do the others have left. This is a issue for you and your corp to sort This has no relevence on how much isk/hour sites are. If you are farming in your static. Then sites could easily be considered infinite. If your not doing anything in your static more fall you. but don't come bitching about stuff that is most likely a corp issue of yours.
I'm more than happy to hear what your different stand point is. infact why don't you just go and work out your different stand point and send me all the information. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
TomyLobo
U2EZ
135
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 06:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
corbexx wrote:TomyLobo wrote:corbexx wrote:Jack Miton wrote:C4s are pretty high up there solo ISK/hour wise, second only to C5s. Doubling it is extremely over the top and no you should not be able to jump caps into C4s. C2s are FAR more important to address. In any case, it's being worked on. C4 sites are attually some of the best out there. How did you arrive at this conclusion? Have you tried to run a corp (5-10members) in a C4 with all corp members revenue coming from anoms alone? If one person were to solo all the sites then what exactly is left for the remaining corp members? I encourage you to approach this from a different standpoint. Don't just run a handful of sites then compare isk/hr. It just doesn't work that way. That approach would be sensible if wh sites were infinite but we all know they aren't. Considering my alt corp is a 5 to 10 man corp who lives in a c4. most the isk is from sites although some do pi. Now on to the if one person runs all the sites, what do the others have left. This is a issue for you and your corp to sort This has no relevence on how much isk/hour sites are. If you are farming in your static. Then sites could easily be considered infinite. If your not doing anything in your static more fall you. but don't come bitching about stuff that is most likely a corp issue of yours. I'm more than happy to hear what your different stand point is. infact why don't you just go and work out your different stand point and send me all the information. Welp, first time the forums has eaten my post. |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
564
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 09:23:00 -
[33] - Quote
TomyLobo wrote:corbexx wrote:TomyLobo wrote:corbexx wrote:Jack Miton wrote:C4s are pretty high up there solo ISK/hour wise, second only to C5s. Doubling it is extremely over the top and no you should not be able to jump caps into C4s. C2s are FAR more important to address. In any case, it's being worked on. C4 sites are attually some of the best out there. How did you arrive at this conclusion? Have you tried to run a corp (5-10members) in a C4 with all corp members revenue coming from anoms alone? If one person were to solo all the sites then what exactly is left for the remaining corp members? I encourage you to approach this from a different standpoint. Don't just run a handful of sites then compare isk/hr. It just doesn't work that way. That approach would be sensible if wh sites were infinite but we all know they aren't. Considering my alt corp is a 5 to 10 man corp who lives in a c4. most the isk is from sites although some do pi. Now on to the if one person runs all the sites, what do the others have left. This is a issue for you and your corp to sort This has no relevence on how much isk/hour sites are. If you are farming in your static. Then sites could easily be considered infinite. If your not doing anything in your static more fall you. but don't come bitching about stuff that is most likely a corp issue of yours. I'm more than happy to hear what your different stand point is. infact why don't you just go and work out your different stand point and send me all the information. Welp, first time the forum has eaten my post. My bad about earlier. I know you are working hard and I was just trying to explain things from a different point of view. Back then, I was giving an example of a possible scenario. I never clearly stated that one guy in my corp was running all the sites. As I said earlier, I don't think balancing combat anoms by isk/hr is the optimal way to go about it or by comparing isk/hr of solo C4 running to that of 5 or so guys running C5s. My main point is that the difference in isk making potential between a C4 to a C5 is too huge given that they are just a single class apart and even now more of a concern given the increased exposure of C4s. For example, running 8 combat sites in a C4 yields around ~750mil to be shared by 2-3 pilots and it would take around a week or longer for another 8 sites to spawn. 8 combat sites in a C5, on the other hand, with full escalations yields around 5-6bil on average multipled by 4 so about 20-25bil a week to be shared by anywhere from 5 to 15 pilots or possibly more. Either way, each person is making X5 or way more than your average C4 resident. It's easy to tell me to pack my things and move to a hole with a more lucrative static but it doesn't fix this huge discrepancy in isk making potential that's just not meant to exist and is possibly one of the reasons why C4s aren't seeing that much activity.
Problem is there are so many viariable you could take in to account if you wanted. the amount of isk on the field to run sites,s the fact caps will haev to be stuck in a site due to seige or triage, the sp needed to fly stuff.isk per hour is by far the simplest way of looking at stufflike this and it might not be 100% the best way but its better than most the other ways of comparing stuff. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1016
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 09:44:00 -
[34] - Quote
Just a request people, when you talk about how much isk you can make running C4 sites etc solo , can you please make it plain. That for you solo is you plus two or 3 alts, for DPS and hole control.
Otherwise CCP will assume you actually mean solo meaning ONE PERSON alone, and Nerf us into the ground, instead of getting the balance we need........ There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Kuya Third
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 10:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
corbexx wrote: Problem is there are so many viariable you could take in to account if you wanted. the amount of isk on the field to run sites,s the fact caps will haev to be stuck in a site due to seige or triage, the sp needed to fly stuff.isk per hour is by far the simplest way of looking at stufflike this and it might not be 100% the best way but its better than most the other ways of comparing stuff.
But one simple variable should really taken into account: Corporations living in c1 to c4 have to leave their home and run their statics, else there's no income at all for the members. In C5/6 this is the opposite. Main income comes from farming escalations in the home system. Seeing this together with the other changes it becomes even more imballanced. C5/6 mechanics are being kept with the argument having a dread in siege? You can't be serious about that. C4s today are a great solo farming ground, majority of those carebears are just alts from PvP people. We all have to pay for our pew...
I'd like to read a statement on the escalation abuse from you or Fozzie. |
Jez Amatin
Enso Corp
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 11:42:00 -
[36] - Quote
I don't think its as simple as buff income of all the sites in C4 space. I would suggest that C4 are populated by small corps (with a lot essentially being one dude and his alts) mainly because the PVE is more geared towards solo (meaning 2-4 alts). If there was better balance of solo and group content, then maybe corps would have more incentive to grow.
Having 2 statics does make things a bit more risky, but it also opens up more opportunities as long as the new static is somewhat useful... |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
530
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 12:58:00 -
[37] - Quote
First advocate fixing the downtime respawn mechanic "bug" / oversight / whatever, where escalation waves fully respawn following each downtime (because the server doesn't track them). That will bring down the numbers in the C5/C6 sites down, and either force people to have (very slightly) smaller wallets, or force them into their statics for increasing payout. Probably the former, but who knows.
Because of the significant increase in asset cost on field -- 10-15 bil just to get in the door of a full escalation in a C5/C6 vs less than 2-3 bil for a 100-150m ISK/hr/char setup in a C4 -- plus the operational risks of running C5 sites, the escalations are worth keeping.
Corbexx's numbers will show what happens to site income if you take away the escalations. It's possible that you might even need to buff C5/C6 site payout if you removed escalations.
How frequently you get home sites in your C5 depends on how creative (and lucky) you can get with the mechanics and geography. Many times, you get a lot of sites merely because there are a lot of people farming for them. I agree that you should farm your static for the best ISK income potential, but the fact remains that C5s are more active than people give them credit; they're just full of (nullsec?) farmers.
Again, throttling back the escalation "bug" might be sufficient to fix this without putting a cap on constellation spawn rate.
The disparity between source of income in C1-C4 vs C5/C6 could be looked at. In the lower class systems, you're looking mostly at salvage (nanoribbons) being your primary income source. C4s are the best of the bunch for blue loot, but a bad ribbon count can still ruin an evening. In C5/C6, it's all about the blue loot. Salvage might only be 10% of the final total, which makes C5/C6 less market-dependent than C1-C4 and thus more stable of an income. The drop in nanoribbon prices? Yeah, I'd wager it's not because of all of those C1-C4 farmers or day-trippers.
A balancing pass over manufacturing and an addition of new items constructed of WH goo will go a long way toward fixing this.
I would also personally like to see Sleeper AI tweaked to behave a little more like players do. They should be the most intelligent NPCs for the most challenging PvE content in the game. W-space should be leading the effort to make running PvE sites more exciting and more engaging, rather than assigning drones to someone and afk'ing.
We all have to do it, so it might as well be something interesting, eh?
If the difficulty of the NPCs themselves are increased, we can then justify calls for increased payouts to shoot them (compared to rats in Nullsec that are stupid easy which CCP continues to buff in payouts).
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TomyLobo
U2EZ
135
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 20:05:00 -
[38] - Quote
Kuya Third wrote:corbexx wrote: Problem is there are so many viariable you could take in to account if you wanted. the amount of isk on the field to run sites,s the fact caps will haev to be stuck in a site due to seige or triage, the sp needed to fly stuff.isk per hour is by far the simplest way of looking at stufflike this and it might not be 100% the best way but its better than most the other ways of comparing stuff.
But one simple variable should really taken into account: Corporations living in c1 to c4 have to leave their home and run their statics/connections, else there's no income at all for the members. In C5/6 this is the opposite. Main income comes from farming escalations in the home system. Seeing this together with the other changes it becomes even more imballanced. C5/6 mechanics are being kept with the argument having a dread in siege? You can't be serious about that. C4s today are a great solo farming ground, majority of those carebears are just alts from PvP people. We all have to pay for our pew... I'd like to read a statement on the escalation abuse from you or Fozzie. Fozzie actually acknowledged this huge difference between C4s and C5s during a podcast not too long ago. Podcast |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1735
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 08:37:00 -
[39] - Quote
Here's a crazy idea to increase low class income... Sleeper battleships spawned from capital escalations in C5/C6 space, don't drop melted nanoribbons...
Thoughts? +1 |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 08:50:00 -
[40] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Here's a crazy idea to increase low class income... Sleeper battleships spawned from capital escalations in C5/C6 space, don't drop melted nanoribbons...
Thoughts?
Love it. Increase blue loot by 15 % to compensate so they are not useless totally and its better? number is optional ofc. |
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Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
42
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 08:51:00 -
[41] - Quote
Also - C4s need more sites, better spawn, and someone has to re-do them. Its overwhelmingly silly to have some DAT or REL spawn up to 200 away from you.
By far, only really doable site is Barracks. Rest is just to do when there is nothing else or if theres magnetar. |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
interstellar initiative Incorporated
239
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
I think that a new line of WH products, Sleeper missiles and laser cystals for example, would make WH's more profitable without actually changing the loot drop mechanics or anything already in-game. Besides, it's about time we saw something other than the 4 T3's being made from WH loot. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1089
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 11:53:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ok here is an idea, there is clearly a reluctance on CCPs part to provide increased income when the main beneficiary would be providing those characters with multiple alts an engorged income stream.
That makes sense after a fashion, but they always seem to forget to reward, active, engaged players in return.
So if they have sites, anywhere, that are designed around multiple player cooperation, why not introduce the following.
When increasing income to encourage activity, place the increased income drop, in rats that require an active players focused attention on the screen, where the rats spawns or warps in and has to be actively chased and the rat attempts to avoid the player. This should naturally be an appropriate ship for the site and quite manageable for a single player whilst operating in a group.
This rewards the group which have some players focusing on these active spawns while his colleagues continue with the main spawn. This should engage that single player for a little, while not being a practical option for multiboxers. We are NOT talking burner class difficuilty! Because you are taking an active player away from the main site running.
Note this does not degrade current operations in any way, but requires active players to gain the additional rewards. Note2 this does not include luck in any manner, spawns are part of main site design. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Demerlis
Blue-Fire
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 15:04:00 -
[44] - Quote
c4 site income is fine. their value imo is balanced against the fact that you can solo them in a relatively 'cheap' ship if you wanted. if anything the spawn ranges should be addressed.
current c4 residents are simply going to have to change their way of life and adapt with the dual static change. those who are afraid of change will just have to deal with it. but then again i'm guessing most of those who are afraid of change are solo farmers who enjoyed the seclusion.
for those who run small corporations trying to survive and feed their members. my advice is to learn your new static and highly consider moving your corporation to a more fitting hole if necessary. there are many empty c4s, and when everyone figures out what the new statics are, i bet it will be a bit of a goldrush to move into the good ones.
if your corporation does not feel comfortable moving up into a c5, find a new c4 with a better farmable static. having 2 statics is way more of a boon than a cost imo. you can even start practicing by find a c4 with a static c5. sure, escalations are worth a helluva lot more, but the base site is still good enough to feed a corporation of 10 non-capital pilots.
otherwise a static c4 will give you infinite sites to run, and maybe you find a hole with a 2nd static to a low class wormhole so your corp can have a nice chance at kspace exits.
people are worrying too much! your will adapt and survive! (hopefully) |
Blake Nosferatu
Phoenix of the Black Sun
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 05:56:00 -
[45] - Quote
Kuya Third wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Blake Nosferatu wrote:corbexx wrote:Jack Miton wrote:C4s are pretty high up there solo ISK/hour wise, second only to C5s. Doubling it is extremely over the top and no you should not be able to jump caps into C4s. C2s are FAR more important to address. In any case, it's being worked on. C4 sites are attually some of the best out there. I think Adriana means to include escalation isk in c5's which is about a bil isk vs the normal atm 80 mil per site in c4's. Now there will be more traffic aka more risk there should be more reward which I agree. Also please ccp fix the broken c4 relic/data sites. After a can has been hacked successfully the next waves usually don't spawn. C1's and c2's definitely need a boost in isk. C3's atm seem good were they are. You can make almost the same amount in a c3 with a tengu as a golem in a c4 atm. Im for keeping the mass limitations as they are in c4's. I'm counting escalations too. ISK per account on C5/6 escalations is only slightly higher than solo C4s and then only if youre running them with minimum numbers which most people do not. You also need to commit a fleet that is way more skill intensive and is worth probably 10x as much as whatever ship youre running C4s solo in. Pretty funny how people are coming up with false arguments. You need 1 dread pilot and 3 more cap sitter which just warp in and go safe again to fully escalate. One dread is shooting an escalation wave in a bit over 3 minutes. 4x3=12min to earn little bit more than what? And since you do not run the site itself, it will respawn the next 3 days. Hm, any other wormhoe runs out of sites pretty quick. In another thread you complain about loosing the mechanic to insta close the static which is not possible in any lower class wormhole. No wonder you are bored and cry for content. Can you imagine that your targets don't have the income to run a srp in that dimension? In that income area any argument about the risk fielding a dread is irrellevant... Rebalancing is not necessary. Just remove or at least fix escalations and you fix many issues in eve - also outside wh space. PS: oh, plz dont tell me that solo escalating is not happening .. just dont plz.
Hey corbexx how is that wormhole class income list coming along? |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
689
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 07:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
Blake Nosferatu wrote: Hey corbexx how is that wormhole class income list coming along?
P.S. Add a single carrier only escalation wave to c4's maybe?
c3's are done c4's nearly done and will be done before I go to iceland for the summit. (c5 and c6 I will probably try pull off the noho accountancy system)
I'm hoping I get time to test a c1 site again as it was abnormally high.
On the escalation wave I'm not to keen on cap escalation in lower class wh's. but do like the idea of a mini escalation.
I havent thought it all through yet but rough idea being ... c1 and c2 you can mini escalate with say a few bc's. c3 and c4 you could mini escalate with 3 or 4 battle ships to get some extra sleepers to kill. Again its a really early idea which hasn't been thought through yet. I've spoke to a few people about it and they seem to like the idea. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 07:39:00 -
[47] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Blake Nosferatu wrote: Hey corbexx how is that wormhole class income list coming along?
P.S. Add a single carrier only escalation wave to c4's maybe?
c3's are done c4's nearly done and will be done before I go to iceland for the summit. (c5 and c6 I will probably try pull off the noho accountancy system) I'm hoping I get time to test a c1 site again as it was abnormally high. On the escalation wave I'm not to keen on cap escalation in lower class wh's. but do like the idea of a mini escalation. I havent thought it all through yet but rough idea being ... c1 and c2 you can mini escalate with say a few bc's. c3 and c4 you could mini escalate with 3 or 4 battle ships to get some extra sleepers to kill. Again its a really early idea which hasn't been thought through yet. I've spoke to a few people about it and they seem to like the idea.
Lot of ppl rat these sites with T3's I think, and mini-escalating with T3's would help close the production/destruction loop for these ships and raise demand for them. Virtuous circle stuff. Keep in mind this would more than likely increase supply of T3 salvage so it would be better to have T3 ships put at risk for this so more of them get blown up. Lore might benefit because "sleepers get pissed off seeing their own technology used against them", etc. |
Blake Nosferatu
Phoenix of the Black Sun
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 08:06:00 -
[48] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Blake Nosferatu wrote: Hey corbexx how is that wormhole class income list coming along?
P.S. Add a single carrier only escalation wave to c4's maybe?
c3's are done c4's nearly done and will be done before I go to iceland for the summit. (c5 and c6 I will probably try pull off the noho accountancy system) I'm hoping I get time to test a c1 site again as it was abnormally high. On the escalation wave I'm not to keen on cap escalation in lower class wh's. but do like the idea of a mini escalation. I havent thought it all through yet but rough idea being ... c1 and c2 you can mini escalate with say a few bc's. c3 and c4 you could mini escalate with 3 or 4 battle ships to get some extra sleepers to kill. Again its a really early idea which hasn't been thought through yet. I've spoke to a few people about it and they seem to like the idea.
+1 , thanks for keeping us in the info loop. |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
690
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 08:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:corbexx wrote:Blake Nosferatu wrote: Hey corbexx how is that wormhole class income list coming along?
P.S. Add a single carrier only escalation wave to c4's maybe?
c3's are done c4's nearly done and will be done before I go to iceland for the summit. (c5 and c6 I will probably try pull off the noho accountancy system) I'm hoping I get time to test a c1 site again as it was abnormally high. On the escalation wave I'm not to keen on cap escalation in lower class wh's. but do like the idea of a mini escalation. I havent thought it all through yet but rough idea being ... c1 and c2 you can mini escalate with say a few bc's. c3 and c4 you could mini escalate with 3 or 4 battle ships to get some extra sleepers to kill. Again its a really early idea which hasn't been thought through yet. I've spoke to a few people about it and they seem to like the idea. Lot of ppl rat these sites with T3's I think, and mini-escalating with T3's would help close the production/destruction loop for these ships and raise demand for them. Virtuous circle stuff. Keep in mind this would more than likely increase supply of T3 salvage so it would be better to have T3 ships put at risk for this so more of them get blown up. Lore might benefit because "sleepers get pissed off seeing their own technology used against them", etc.
aye as I said its literally a concept now. Not figured out any of the issues. I'd need to get alot of info from ccp like what ships are used most in each class etc what would need to be used to escalate what the escalation would be. etc
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1815
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 08:46:00 -
[50] - Quote
If they take the time to add more escalations but not roaming sleepers, i think i might kick a puppy into the road in anger!
On a serious note, sub capital escalations should NOT be added to low class. The system could be gamed too easily given how easy it is for a sub cap to escape a site compared to capitals and it takes away the only really unique part of C5/C6 space.
I don't think payouts needs increasing at all but if it's going to happen, the best way would be to increase the value of blue loot... and if you do that in lower classes, you should increase blue loot value in high class wormholes by the same amount to keep the income gap the same.
At the end of the day, i think most people would agree that we need new things that are constructed from sleeper salvage and this should take priority over small income increases that do very little to improve the game. +1 |
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Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 09:56:00 -
[51] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:If they take the time to add more escalations but not roaming sleepers, i think i might kick a puppy into the road in anger! On a serious note, sub capital escalations should NOT be added to low class. The system could be gamed too easily given how easy it is for a sub cap to escape a site compared to capitals and it takes away the only really unique part of C5/C6 space. I don't think payouts needs increasing at all but if it's going to happen, the best way would be to increase the value of blue loot... and if you do that in lower classes, you should increase blue loot value in high class wormholes by the same amount to keep the income gap the same. At the end of the day, i think most people would agree that we need new things that are constructed from sleeper salvage and this should take priority over small income increases that do very little to improve the game.
I know ppl like to talk their own book, so I'll take this post with a grain of salt. Having said that, I don't really know if there's a "perfect" way to give lower class wormholes an income buff. I just know that it needs to be done to incentivize more players to take the risk of running wormhole sites and create a PvE/PvP "food chain" (content) in lower class holes. I suppose the alternatives are to nerf incursions, nullsec and maybe FW (lol not gonna happen), or to just let lower class holes remain basically a wasteland. I don't see the alternatives as viable so here we are.
I really doubt that a lower class income buff is going to threaten the competitive advantages of higher class holes and cap escalations there. The latter is already the highest gross isk/hr in the game (says Fozzie). Narrowing it somewhat will still leave a reasonable gap. |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
692
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 10:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote: I really doubt that a lower class income buff is going to threaten the competitive advantages of higher class holes and cap escalations there. The latter is already the highest gross isk/hr in the game (says Fozzie). Narrowing it somewhat will still leave a reasonable gap.
It may be for a small group but its not sustainable once you have done your sites thats it. 5 sites in polaris we could do in 25-30 mins assuming travel time thats 3.5b in 30 mins split between the group. its also 3.5b for that day. which works out 146m a hour (if you do that) for the group keep in mind this is the group income which for 5 to 10 people would mean, 700 to 350m per person for the 30 mins of burst farming. or 30 to 15m a hour for the day which if you look at it like that is pretty ******. its every easy to make stuff look good or bad depending on how you look at it
I've seen incursion groups make 200plus m a hour (not including lp) and they moan about how cap farming is more isk per hour, which it could be depending on size of group. the difference is you can potentially run incursions all day long if you want. for very little risk. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
43
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 11:41:00 -
[53] - Quote
Escalation farming on a minimalistic but very effective way goes up to 1.5b/hour using 4 toons while having 1 dread in siege only. ^^ I said that before, but got deleted I believe?
I just chatted to a guy who is running several c5 holes with his friends that way to fund the cap/supers needed in null. I believe, that senario is not that uncomon. Anyway, I'm not here to complain about what people are doing with their isk.
Increasing the blue loot would outrage that imballance in a proportional way.
In comparison, I could do about 500m/hour with 3 toons in a c4(frontier barracks) before hyperion while keeping the environment pretty safe. But I had to roll and go into the static for that of course which pushes down isk/hour alot. I was able to fear out many other inhabitants with 3 BS and even ran their sites while they sat in their POS watching/try ninja looting. Hell of a fun had.. With all those wormholes opening in c4 now there's no sense in farming that even if you increase the outcome. We already read in another thread about no/low site spawns which I suspect as an indicator for that behavior.
But yeah, increase blue loot. You might guess where I have my alts scouting around right now... I'm still considering this step though, because I don't think I will have any low scale pvp fun in that systems.
Just to say this as it always comes up here: I did incursions. I don't like - bad isk in comparison to wh space - still. But more important, it's so ******* boring!
I don't know what other people are going to do(some seem to know though). I can just give you my cents. If CCP is not able to create a ballanced environment and is keeping gaps open, where is the challange to play this game? |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1815
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 12:16:00 -
[54] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote: I know ppl like to talk their own book, so I'll take this post with a grain of salt. Having said that, I don't really know if there's a "perfect" way to give lower class wormholes an income buff. I just know that it needs to be done to incentivize more players to take the risk of running wormhole sites and create a PvE/PvP "food chain" (content) in lower class holes. I suppose the alternatives are to nerf incursions, nullsec and maybe FW (lol not gonna happen), or to just let lower class holes remain basically a wasteland. New content would have unpredictable effects and could itself embody an income buff I suppose, but not knowing what the content is or if any is forthcoming, there's nothing really to say on it. In any case, I don't see the alternatives as viable so here we are.
I really doubt that a lower class income buff is going to threaten the competitive advantages of higher class holes and cap escalations there. The latter is already the highest gross isk/hr in the game (says Fozzie). Narrowing it somewhat will still leave a reasonable gap (and there should be a reasonable gap).
New content IS the perfect way to do it because it comes with the additional benefit of revitalising wormhole space and attracting more players to wormhole space.
The way i see it, every class of wormhole comes with its pros and cons so if people are not happy with how much isk they are earning, why aren't they moving to a system what suits their needs? The fact is, it's not all about site running in C2/C1 space, as many people make their money from PI.
That said, i'm not opposed to adding additional value to sites but if you're going to add escalations, it should be capital (carrier only) escalations to balance the risk reward. C1 system should not be changed. +1 |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1815
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 12:28:00 -
[55] - Quote
umnikar wrote:Escalation farming on a minimalistic but very effective way goes up to 1.5b/hour using 4 toons while having 1 dread in siege only.
With one dread? I'm guessing your going to need around 10 siege cycles which sounds like the worst! ...but if people want/can do that, it's a good thing. You are taking a massive risk soloing sites like that and you deserve the reward.
On average, what is the value of 1 fully escalated C5 site? +1 |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
96
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 13:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:New content IS the perfect way to do it because it comes with the additional benefit of revitalising wormhole space and attracting more players to wormhole space.
The way i see it, every class of wormhole comes with its pros and cons so if people are not happy with how much isk they are earning, why aren't they moving to a system what suits their needs? The fact is, it's not all about site running in C2/C1 space, as many people make their money from PI.
That said, i'm not opposed to adding additional value to sites but if you're going to add escalations, it should be capital (carrier only) escalations to balance the risk reward. C1 system should not be changed.
New content is probably even a bigger pull than isk/h. Just look what the new lowsec DEDs, clonesoldier/mordus spawns or even the revamp of the k-space exploration have done. Many people doing it, activity and content everywhere. Yet wormholers usually do almost less different sites than an incursionrunner
But for the love of Bob, please keep your carriers to c5/6s. Many people stick to the lowerends not because of the income but because they like to pvp without 3-7 guardians or needing enough dps to break a triage. There has always been enough complaining from c5/6 groups about lack of targets, yet they keep merging into bigger and bigger groups (Yes, I-Śm looking at you PP ). Ofc you need constant numbers to do stuff and not just weekendpeaknumbers, but do you really want to turn lowends into this kind of space too? |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 13:25:00 -
[57] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote: New content IS the perfect way to do it because it comes with the additional benefit of revitalising wormhole space and attracting more players to wormhole space.
The way i see it, every class of wormhole comes with its pros and cons so if people are not happy with how much isk they are earning, why aren't they moving to a system what suits their needs? The fact is, it's not all about site running in C2/C1 space, as many people make their money from PI.
That said, i'm not opposed to adding additional value to sites but if you're going to add escalations, it should be capital (carrier only) escalations to balance the risk reward. C1 system should not be changed.
Ok well I want more content too lol, I just don't know if CCP will give it to us cuz our community is pretty small. I was thinking of an income buff as something quick and easy to help boost our numbers, and therefore our influence and that would increase the likelihood of getting more content. Mini-escalations might be too complicated programming-wise to get off the ground. But something as simple as a salvage table rebalance pass and a reasonable buff to blue loot could also work well.
I get that you can do PI in lower-end holes like C1's and C2's, but this is also about having a variety of isk-making activities available that make sense to do from risk/reward perspective. Just doing PI all the time is face-melting boring. Its also about getting more ships outside the POS shield and put at risk besides cheap Epithals.
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Nox52
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 13:30:00 -
[58] - Quote
Talking about way to increase income I would suggest that making the sleeper salvage besides nanos actually valuable and integrated in the industry would be much more worthwhile. Rather than just taking up space for nothing. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 13:35:00 -
[59] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Maduin Shi wrote: I really doubt that a lower class income buff is going to threaten the competitive advantages of higher class holes and cap escalations there. The latter is already the highest gross isk/hr in the game (says Fozzie). Narrowing it somewhat will still leave a reasonable gap.
It may be for a small group but its not sustainable once you have done your sites thats it. 5 sites in polaris we could do in 25-30 mins assuming travel time thats 3.5b in 30 mins split between the group. its also 3.5b for that day. which works out 146m a hour (if you do that) for the group keep in mind this is the group income which for 5 to 10 people would mean, 700 to 350m per person for the 30 mins of burst farming. or 30 to 15m a hour for the day which if you look at it like that is pretty ******. its every easy to make stuff look good or bad depending on how you look at it I've seen incursion groups make 200plus m a hour (not including lp) and they moan about how cap farming is more isk per hour, which it could be depending on size of group. the difference is you can potentially run incursions all day long if you want. for very little risk.
Lol ok corby, I don't want to turn this into a nerf cap escalation thread anymore than you do. I'm talking my book in this thread so y'all certainly can do the same. I'm just happy lower class holes are finally getting some attention. You guys up there in 5 and 6 land running the larger entities are only helping yourselves too since I know a healthy population im lower class holes brings you more targets as well as recruiting opportunities. |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
165
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 13:54:00 -
[60] - Quote
corbexx wrote: On the escalation wave I'm not to keen on cap escalation in lower class wh's. but do like the idea of a mini escalation.
I think escalations are part of the problem rather than the solution as they encourage staying at home and barring the doors rather than farming the static.
Instead of adding escalations why not add some faction spawns (with possible faction drops, it doesnt matter if it is modules, subsystems, implants or even deployables as long as it is something that has market value) that sometimes occur upon site completion. When my team does sites in null we get much more excited about some random pirate bpc, x-type, whatever than we ever did about an unusually high nano ribbon count, others probably find the rare drops fun as well. To balance the change remove / reduce to metal scraps the salvage on the current capital escalation waves; retain the blue books which is where most of the isk is.
Net effect on isk for upperclass wormholes could be more or less neutral as faction bits replace what is lost from salvage. It would also lead to more emphasis on completing the site rather than using it as an ongoing spawn trigger. Down chain farming more be more attractive which is much better than the current behavior of wishing for sites at home and not being interested in anything outside of home. For lower class wormholes it would help both by adding drops and by increased prices on nano ribbons due to scarcity. |
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