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Derrick Miles
EVENumbers
1273
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Posted - 2014.08.13 11:13:00 -
[61] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Did you even read my previous post? This one. No, sorry, I must admit I skimmed it. I actually do agree that dynamic ore belts would be a great addition to mining and would go a long way to making it a more interesting profession. Your ideas about shared exploration costs (which sound similar to Crius teams) are good and would be an interesting dynamic. But I don't know that it's enough on it's own, since once you start mining at the new belt, you're right back to where you left off with the old drudgery. I also don't think that just because something is called a 'mini-game' that it's not a part of the overall gameplay. It just happens to be encapsulated into a more distinct activity than most other things in the game, but it is still something you do within the game, and I think it could make mining a bit more engaging personally. |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2588
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:13:00 -
[62] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Did you even read my previous post? This one. That's exploration, not mining itself. The act of mining would be unchanged, the same stupid, boring, pointless click one button three times an hour and get bacon nonsense that needs to be expunged from the game.
Because how strip miners work couldn't be changed as well, right? So why don't just mini game and rock pops leaving can full of ore? That would be much better than promoting group effort to find and extract ore. Yeah, I can see it... Sorry for wasting your time and precious forum space. 'Nerf hisec' is so much better solution for everything. And so creative. Eve Online Overview Wizard: Forum thread Homepage
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
3308
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:18:00 -
[63] - Quote
Tam Arai wrote:are you sure its safer in hisec? Those basic numbers you posted I can't argue with.
However, to see if you believe hisec is more dangerous than low and null:
1. Do you think there are an equal number of retrievers in highsec and low/null combined? 2. Would you AFK mine in a retriever in low/null? Would you do it in highsec? 3. Would you autopilot your way through low/null in a retriever? Would you in highsec? 4. Would you sit comfortably in a belt and not d-scan in low/null? Would you ever do that in highsec? 5. Do you care if new neutrals appear in low/null? Do you pay close attention to that in highsec?
My own answers to that would be:
1. There are not equal numbers in highsec v low/null. There are many more retrievers in highsec, so more losses there anyway. Percentage wise, I don't know, but the raw numbers destroyed isn't a direct measure of relative danger. It's more likely a measure of relative population of retrievers.
2. Never would I AFK anything in low/null. I personally don't do it in highsec either, but it isn't dangerous to do so.
3. Autopiloting through low/null is a quick way to death. Not really a problem most of the time in highsec.
4. D-Scan is a vital tool in low/null. In many highsec systems it is almost irrelevant most of the time.
5. Changes in local are just as important as d-scan in low/null. In most highsec systems, it hardly even matters.
Highsec is on the whole, far safer than lowsec and nullsec.
People in low/null take much more care of their own safety compared to highsec, because they have to for the most part. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
. -á<- Argue this, not this ->-á( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8763
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:20:00 -
[64] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Schmata Bastanold wrote:Did you even read my previous post? This one. That's exploration, not mining itself. The act of mining would be unchanged, the same stupid, boring, pointless click one button three times an hour and get bacon nonsense that needs to be expunged from the game. Because how strip miners work couldn't be changed as well, right? So why don't just mini game and rock pops leaving can full of ore? That would be much better than promoting group effort to find and extract ore. Yeah, I can see it... Sorry for wasting your time and precious forum space. 'Nerf hisec' is so much better solution for everything. And so creative.
Nice try, but I suggested buffing highsec.
Well, at least the people who are at their keyboards anyway, but then it's hard to argue that those people shouldn't be rewarded for it in comparison.
The point is that unless you change the actual act of mining to require more than bare minimum player input, anything else is just more of the same. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2588
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
Derrick Miles wrote:But I don't know that it's enough on it's own, since once you start mining at the new belt, you're right back to where you left off with the old drudgery. I also don't think that just because something is called a 'mini-game' that it's not a part of the overall gameplay. It just happens to be encapsulated into a more distinct activity than most other things in the game, but it is still something you do within the game, and I think it could make mining a bit more engaging personally.
How about this: new modules allowing to "expose" ore better for lasers to gather. Only one can be fit per ship, scriptable for some mining improving factors (granulation - more m3 per cycle, saturation - more ore units per cycle, etc.). It would be like target painters of remote sebo kind of thing. It would have to be activated at specific rock so no off grid linky thing. So you would need at least two more ships to maximize your single miner's speed. You fit it on you mining ship, you gimp your base yield? You take 2 friends/alts with you, you will faster exploit site you found so competition has less chance to poach "your" ore.
And since ore would be only discoverable (sites) and scarce (no more than x simultaneous per system or sth) and elusive (signatures fading away with time) cycles of actual mining lazors could be make faster without worrying about saturation of market with instant ore fountains.
I don't know, I'm sure there are ways for make it more robust and interesting and group oriented than what we have now. But if we start every discussion with "nerf by 30% and mini game" we won't go anywhere.
@Kaarous Aldurald And yes, I noticed your "10% more if succeed in mini game" but that's not making mining into fully fleshed resource gathering feature, that's just tamagotchi so you don't get bored by 90-ish second of waiting for your hulk cycle to end. Eve Online Overview Wizard: Forum thread Homepage
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8763
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Posted - 2014.08.13 11:47:00 -
[66] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote: I don't know, I'm sure there are ways for make it more robust and interesting and group oriented than what we have now. But if we start every discussion with "nerf by 30% and mini game" we won't go anywhere.
@Kaarous Aldurald And yes, I noticed your "10% more if succeed in mini game" but that's not making mining into fully fleshed resource gathering feature, that's just tamagotchi so you don't get bored by 90-ish second of waiting for your hulk cycle to end.
Why won't we go anywhere with that? That's exactly what they line up to suggest happens to every other part of space, week after week.
Someone else put it rather well, make the minigame activate-able by use of a specific crystal type, most likely a T1 crystal with a stronger T2 variant for the game.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2588
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:55:00 -
[67] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Why won't we go anywhere with that? That's exactly what they line up to suggest happens to every other part of space, week after week.
Who are 'they', devs? I must have missed something then. And I don't see Crius introducing mini games into production so no, nerfs and mini games are not only one way to make gameplay out of mundane activities.
Eve Online Overview Wizard: Forum thread Homepage
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Rezan Tepet
Partial Safety
7
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Posted - 2014.08.13 12:48:00 -
[68] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Imagine if "Asteroid Fields" spawned between planets instead of around, and gave the impression that the miner was in a cloud of rocks.
This has been one of the most depressing parts of EVE. That I warp up to a belt, zoom out, and it's just like this little arc of stuff. Part of me was expecting at least some of them to be planet rings. oaramos: |oh-WAR-uh-mohs| n. GÇö-áTerm given to early Caldarian wormhole explorers. From Rataani language; literally, "Wave-jumper."-á adj. GÇö-á[see: "moss" "mossy"] slangGÇö crazy, insane |
Anailiv Tyst'vinna
Clan Tyst'vinna
0
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Posted - 2014.08.13 14:16:00 -
[69] - Quote
I think the scatter can thing they had for exploration would be glorious for mining, it would eliminate AFK mining, require effort and increase the risk a bit (if they make it so people can steal the ore at the risk of flags.)
If each laser scattered some ore after every cycle that your hull had to pull in, it would be a bit more realistic as a laser pounding a rock as they do in this game would produce some debris.
The mechanic is already there, just have to add it in.
You could even give the Rorqual the ability to auto-pull all ore a fleet produces from a certain range. Give the big thing a use in this regard.
Sorry if my English is bad, it is not my first language. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
7664
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:14:00 -
[70] - Quote
Tam Arai wrote:according to zkillboard, today, more than twice as many retrievers have been killed in hisec than null and low combined 33 - 15
are you sure its safer in hisec?
Seeing as the High Sec character population is about 7 times larger than than null and low combined, you posting numbers showing slightly more than twice as many retriever kills in high sec as opposed to null just proved that High Sec is indeed mathematically safer be an incredibly large margin (at least for the mining ship you use as a example) than null (and low).
Thanks for that btw, as now we have something to show all these 'high sec is safer' people when they continue to lie. |
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Mooh Bear
Gurista Testing Group LLC
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:30:00 -
[71] - Quote
You're never going to get the high-sec miners to move to low/null-sec. Period. Most of them mine solo/multibox. Living in low/null requires a completely different approach to the game (watching d-scan, scouting, be aware, no afk). And the reward will never make up for the increased risk, disruption and increased logistics burden. What you'll get with your proposal is the big null guys organizing mining ops in their safe sov-null enclaves (maybe) and the high-sec miners quitting because they can't make a buck anymore (surely). |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Unleashed Pestilence
926
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:54:00 -
[72] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Xuixien wrote:CSM would be cool, but I'm terrible at EVE. :( You'll be a shoe-in then. Haha, fair enough. Really I just wanted to keep my writing skills from atrophying into complete terribleness. Also throw some ideas out there for the community and the Devs to mull over. I enjoyed (and agree with most of the points in) the article. Get someone to proof read your writing before posting though. There were a few sentences that didn't make sense, or had some spelling/grammar issues. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1447
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 19:42:00 -
[73] - Quote
Mooh Bear wrote:What you'll get with your proposal is the big null guys organizing mining ops in their safe sov-null enclaves (maybe) and the high-sec miners quitting because they can't make a buck anymore (surely).
As it should be.
Also are you saying that people who carve out their own space in NullSec, fighting daily to defend it, spamming DScan, working together, organizing, etcetc.... shouldn't be rewarded more than HiSec people because "miners will quit the game!"? Epic Space Cat |
Leoric Firesword
Dark Fusion Industries
46
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 21:05:00 -
[74] - Quote
so let me break this down.
1. nerf some of the ore spawns in highsec: Did you know that veldspar is one of the most profitable ores in highsec? you're changes won't make this any different.
2. change how much ore spawns in each system: so now people who want to mine gotta jump around to find "good" spots? I'm guessing you've not done much travelling in a mining barge. and no warping from your POS to the belt in the WH doesn't count as travelling.
3. added exploration components: this I'm good with
4. nothing changed about what happens after the roids are locked: this here is where you lost me. Do you know why people alt-tab to netflix? because mining is boring. let me say that again MINING IS BORING.
Your changes do nothing to make mining more interesting once you've started. All your changes would really do is make people go through more hassle to do something that they don't enjoy doing in the first place otherwise they wouldn't alt tab. You're not making it more engaging, you're added tedium. |
Torneach Structor
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 21:20:00 -
[75] - Quote
I'm seeing a lot of mentions of a "mining mini-game", and I've been seeing mentions of such a thing for quite a while.
As someone who splits his time between industry and combat depending on mood, such a thing would be more obnoxious than helpful.
I think we need to really analyze a few things to really reach some kind of conclusion.
Firstly, why do people mine? I know that in my own case, and a few others that I know, and possibly many others that I do not know, it's to relax and/or socialize. So before we entertain any real proposals to a "mining mini-game", if such a proposed mini-game gets in the way of relaxation and socialization, it will just annoy people and drive them away from it. I know that I myself would stop mining and just buy ores and minerals exclusively for any production pursuits I may engage in. The best part of mining is the mindlessness of it.
Secondly, how do we want rewards to scale based on the numbers of people (either characters or actual people)? With regards to alternate characters, CCP gets tons of money based on multiboxing miners, and anything that makes this gameplay style impossible or more trouble than it's worth will result in a substantial loss of revenue. A "scatter" mechanic would allow for more individuals to increase earning potential, but would be a penalty to multiboxers. As a matter of personal preference, and as one who does not use multiple characters, this would be acceptable to me, but not for many others.
So what's a solution? I can't really pin anything down myself, but the things that need to be considered are retaining the relaxing and social aspects that are currently present in mining, and give scaling benefits for group play.
Just a few thoughts before we all get on the clickfest mini-game bandwagon. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8775
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 21:24:00 -
[76] - Quote
Mooh Bear wrote:You're never going to get the high-sec miners to move to low/null-sec. Period.
Ah, good. Hadn't seen this strawman in a while.
No one wants to force them to move anywhere. We want to make them actually have to play the game, instead of pretending to play the game.
Right now, mining requires so little input that it's just about impossible to tell the average highsec miner from a bot. That needs to change, and if we can do it in a way that discourages botting as well, then it takes out competition which makes the average miner earn more than he ever did before.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1447
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 22:37:00 -
[77] - Quote
Leoric Firesword wrote:1. nerf some of the ore spawns in highsec: Did you know that veldspar is one of the most profitable ores in highsec? you're changes won't make this any different.
Veldspar is the 2nd least profitable ore in HiSec, and one of the least profitable ores in the entire game (out of 16 ores, only 5 are less profitable than Veldspar).
And you may be right! The changes I propose may or may not affect the profitability of Veldspar. But they're not meant to. At least not directly.
Leoric Firesword wrote:change how much ore spawns in each system: so now people who want to mine gotta jump around to find "good" spots? I'm guessing you've not done much travelling in a mining barge. and no warping from your POS to the belt in the WH doesn't count as travelling.
Yes, people would have to jump through gates to find good spots. That's how you move from system to system in EVE, sans WHs or cynos.
Anyway I'm sorry you don't like my ideas. I knew it would upset a few AFK miners. I'm just surprised so few have shown up to rage. Epic Space Cat |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1447
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 22:40:00 -
[78] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mooh Bear wrote:You're never going to get the high-sec miners to move to low/null-sec. Period. Ah, good. Hadn't seen this strawman in a while. No one wants to force them to move anywhere. We want to make them actually have to play the game, instead of pretending to play the game. Right now, mining requires so little input that it's just about impossible to tell the average highsec miner from a bot. That needs to change, and if we can do it in a way that discourages botting as well, then it takes out competition which makes the average miner earn more than he ever did before.
Adding barren rocks (aka obstacles) in asteroid belts would be a great way to mess up bots as they get stuck on these objects. Would also make bots vulnerable to "Large Collidable Object Tackle" for roaming gangs. :) Epic Space Cat |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1447
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 22:42:00 -
[79] - Quote
Torneach Structor wrote:I'm seeing a lot of mentions of a "mining mini-game", and I've been seeing mentions of such a thing for quite a while.
As someone who splits his time between industry and combat depending on mood, such a thing would be more obnoxious than helpful.
I think we need to really analyze a few things to really reach some kind of conclusion.
Firstly, why do people mine? I know that in my own case, and a few others that I know, and possibly many others that I do not know, it's to relax and/or socialize. So before we entertain any real proposals to a "mining mini-game", if such a proposed mini-game gets in the way of relaxation and socialization, it will just annoy people and drive them away from it. I know that I myself would stop mining and just buy ores and minerals exclusively for any production pursuits I may engage in. The best part of mining is the mindlessness of it.
Secondly, how do we want rewards to scale based on the numbers of people (either characters or actual people)? With regards to alternate characters, CCP gets tons of money based on multiboxing miners, and anything that makes this gameplay style impossible or more trouble than it's worth will result in a substantial loss of revenue. A "scatter" mechanic would allow for more individuals to increase earning potential, but would be a penalty to multiboxers. As a matter of personal preference, and as one who does not use multiple characters, this would be acceptable to me, but not for many others.
So what's a solution? I can't really pin anything down myself, but the things that need to be considered are retaining the relaxing and social aspects that are currently present in mining, and give scaling benefits for group play.
Just a few thoughts before we all get on the clickfest mini-game bandwagon.
EDIT: As an addendum, if such a mini-game were to be implemented, you'd need much more than a 10% boost (like a previous poster suggested), since the change in effort from the current mining system (basically none) to a full-blown mini-game is very large. Much more effort for not much more reward is a bad design move.
For the record I find the idea of a minigame terrible, but interesting.
The purpose of my piece was to liven up mining as a profession. As far as what to do with mining itself... you got me there.
This has been an interesting discussion with lots of food for thought.
Stay tuned for my next few upcoming pieces that will touch upon:
- Stealth Bombers
- Local Chat/Intel (Dun dun dun!)
- The Pirate's Life!
Epic Space Cat |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2089
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 23:05:00 -
[80] - Quote
Torneach Structor wrote: A "scatter" mechanic would allow for more individuals to increase earning potential, but would be a penalty to multiboxers. As a matter of personal preference, and as one who does not use multiple characters, this would be acceptable to me, but not for many others.
The scatter mechanic was so flat out horrible, they took it out of exploration, a typically solo activity. Now if they would be nice, they could remove that hacking minigame that got boring after 3 days.
I don't know about the rest of you, but when I'm out in space, I need to pay attention to my surroundings, in particular to other players, not fight the interface and some silly mini-game.
The only mining improvements worth considering are ones that gets players to fleet and move mining ops to more dangerous areas, not the tedium of minigames. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
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Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2089
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 23:08:00 -
[81] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Right now, mining requires so little input that it's just about impossible to tell the average highsec miner from a bot. That needs to change, and if we can do it in a way that discourages botting as well, then it takes out competition which makes the average miner earn more than he ever did before.
Really? Because I have no trouble at all telling the difference.
Instead of trolling the forums 24/7 , why don't you try playing and interacting with other players for a change.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8776
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 23:22:00 -
[82] - Quote
Sentamon wrote: Really? Because I have no trouble at all telling the difference.
Well, I've figured out a foolproof method.
If you bump them 50km off the belt and they don't immediately spill out obscenities in local, assume they are a bot. Works great so far.
Quote: Instead of trolling the forums 24/7 , why don't you try playing and interacting with other players for a change.
Actually, I just finished ganking a couple of Ventures, for the contest.
I also find it rather hilarious that someone defending mining is telling anyone else to interact with other players. "for a change". "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
How M'I Alive
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 01:00:00 -
[83] - Quote
Quote:Conclusion Two: The risk:reward ratio of mining needs to be altered, making it less more rewarding to do in dangerous areas. Looks like the editor on that site needs to do a worse better job. |
How M'I Alive
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 01:06:00 -
[84] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mooh Bear wrote:You're never going to get the high-sec miners to move to low/null-sec. Period. Ah, good. Hadn't seen this strawman in a while. No one wants to force them to move anywhere. We want to make them actually have to play the game, instead of pretending to play the game. Right now, mining requires so little input that it's just about impossible to tell the average highsec miner from a bot. That needs to change, and if we can do it in a way that discourages botting as well, then it takes out competition which makes the average miner earn more than he ever did before. if they made mining more interactive, would you mine?
pve activities in any game always get boring eventually. this is why mission runners quit the game after so long. ultimately its the social experience with other players that will retain players
so: is it better to have extremely easy pve that allows you to focus on the social aspect of the game while doing it, or is it better to have a more complex pve where your focus actually needs to remain on it?
the reason miners stay around for years but missioners run away is because miners are actually having fun doing something else.
tldr other forms of pve should emulate mining to allow players to focus on the social element of the game while doing so |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1449
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 02:50:00 -
[85] - Quote
How M'I Alive wrote:Quote:Conclusion Two: The risk:reward ratio of mining needs to be altered, making it less more rewarding to do in dangerous areas. Looks like the editor on that site needs to do a worse better job.
Thanks! Sentence fixed. Epic Space Cat |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8782
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 04:16:00 -
[86] - Quote
How M'I Alive wrote: tldr other forms of pve should emulate mining to allow players to focus on the social element of the game while doing so
Lol no. The other forms of the game should not be turned into clicking a button a few times an hour and getting free stuff.
If you want that, go play a Facebook game. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2090
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 04:27:00 -
[87] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Actually, I just finished ganking a couple of Ventures, for the contest.
pathetic
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:How M'I Alive wrote: tldr other forms of pve should emulate mining to allow players to focus on the social element of the game while doing so
Lol no. The other forms of the game should not be turned into clicking a button a few times an hour and getting free stuff. If you want that, go play a Facebook game.
or make massive blob and mine moons ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Oryan Jr
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 13:40:00 -
[88] - Quote
*Doesn't like the stigma that miners are automatically assumed to be botters* Also I just mined all night and morning, without Netflix. I s cowered the forums, I looked up how to make an Orca pilot alt on EVEMon, I talked with my Alliance - mates on TS3, and i bought a few things in the market.
I didn't mind doing what I was doing out there, it wasn't boring to me, so what's the big deal fellas? We are simply looking for MINER changes perhaps, but don't jump all over the miners back man, we good folks! |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
2601
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 13:52:00 -
[89] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:clicking a button a few times an hour and getting free stuff.
Considering cycle times for well skilled and boosted character and size of hisec rocks mining consists of at least 20 clicks per hour per strip miner. Add clicks needed to move ore from hold into can/hauler/orca and those needed to lock new rocks and to run survey scanner it's quite a lot of clicks. I would even argue click count is comparable to missions/anoms :) Eve Online Overview Wizard: Forum thread Homepage
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Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2488
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 14:06:00 -
[90] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Anyway I'm sorry you don't like my ideas. I knew it would upset a few AFK miners. I'm just surprised so few have shown up to rage.
That's because they're AFK One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
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