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Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2014.08.18 22:04:00 -
[61] - Quote
David Koen wrote:If gallente has125 drone bandwidth why caldari doesn't??? Either give caldari cruisers 125 bit or reduce gallente to the 50mb, this is still more than any caldary cruiser has.
You actually pointed very good comparison of Thorax vs Moa. Thorax has better turret dps, faster speed, better slot composition and much more drones. With drones Thorax has about 60% more DPS than Moa. Concerning to tank, Moa has no advantage because you can put cap booster and two armor repairs on thorax. With double armor repair Thorax has relativly same tank as Moa. The problem with Moa tanking 5 Mid slots is just not enough, you need PROP, WEB and SCAM. So you have only 2 slots for tank.
I would reduce Thorax bandwidth to 25 mb, Buff Moa bandwidth to the same 25 MB, giving Moa 6 middle slots and increase speed little bit. That makes them competitive:)
Every Empire Faction has a primary weapon system and a secondary. Caldari have 3 weapon systems. Over the years the missiles were very popural and they became Caldari's primary weapon (and Hybrid turrets left behind) So secondary weapon are drones. Raven has 50mb/75m3 so cvan clear small targets easier, imagine if it had 125mb/375m3 like dominix....
Thorax has 50mb/50m3 drones but after the nerf med drones (from 60m Signature resolution went to 125m, so it couldnt apply too much damage to frigates). So actually for PvP thorax uses 2 sets of small drones to handle frigates too.
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Giuseppe R Raimondo
Lowsey Pirates Inc. Easily Excited
56
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Posted - 2014.08.19 02:12:00 -
[62] - Quote
seems like you want ccp to copy paste 1 ship and give them different names. |
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1133
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Posted - 2014.08.19 02:27:00 -
[63] - Quote
Giuseppe R Raimondo wrote:seems like you want ccp to copy paste 1 ship and give them different names. Yeah another "make everything the same so it's fair" thread. What they don't realize Eve is more of rock, paper, scissors where not one ship is invulnerable to all others. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2155
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Posted - 2014.08.19 03:37:00 -
[64] - Quote
David Koen wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:David Koen wrote:Vexor has 3800 base hp, One ogre 2 has 1775 HP, 5 ogres 8880 HP, you need to do awesome amount of damage to kill all drones, so it is not a solution to kill all drones. Changing Vexor bandwith to 50mb and drone bay to 75 is the solution. Base HP? Why are we even talking about that? Throw in resists and maybe you'd have an argument -- except that then the drones would appear ludicrously soft compared to the ship fielding them and the point would be moot. Ishtar can carry 15 havy drones with total of 26675 HP which is much more than total Ishar hp, yes drones have resists too.
I'm not sure why I'm doing this, but what the ****. Vexor in your dual MAR fit does indeed have less EHP than 5 Ogre IIs: 14643 for the Vexor versus 20682 (~40% more for the Ogres). But then, that's a dual rep fit. A 1600 RRT fit, as expected, gets 27384 versus the same 14643 from the Ogre IIs (Ogres have ~25% less). This is all based on average resist numbers. Lowest resist and highest resist numbers change virtually nothing in terms of percent difference on the dual MAR fit but shows some variation on the plate fit (Vexor is only 20% ahead on min resists and is 28% ahead on max resists).
And before you ask, yes, that's calculating for 5 Ogre IIs with max skills and the ship bonus. Of course, the Vexor can't use all 5 at once but that doesn't seem to bug you much. Remove more than 3 in any case and the Vexor is now ahead and you've removed a huge chunk of damage.
Now, you didn't bring up the Ishtar earlier than this but I'm so bored that why the hell not; let's do it all again.
First, a dual LSE, CDFE I, anti-EM, IFF shield buffer tank. I'll even go ahead with your ludicrous standard of counting the EHP of all 5 Ogre IIs (which... is silly, but ok). Ogres on lowest resist have over twice the EHP of the Ishtar. On average resist Ogres are ahead by 35%. On highest resists, as we'd expect from a T2 ship, the Ishtar is ahead 20% (yes, on all 15 Ogre IIs).
So what about an armor fit Damptar? Tank comes from 2x EANM II, 1 energized explosive, 1600 RRT, suitcase II. On lowest resists, the Damptar has 8% more EHP than 15 Ogre IIs. Average resists the ship pulls ahead by 25%, and on highest resists it his a 52% advantage.
Data is all here if you want to check anything.
So there you have it. If you tank a drone boat, it has more EHP than even the most ludicrous number of drones you can propose. If you choose to kite instead that's a valid choice. Questions? |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1559
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Posted - 2014.08.19 10:36:00 -
[65] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:nothing stopping people from flying gallente ships is there?
if u were on about the ishtar i would listen but saying that gallente is overall better than every other race makes me switch off sorry.
my vargur took on a nueting armageddon and a neuting domi. along with some other **** i wasnt really paying attention to. If i was in a kronos i would have been dead.
enyo vs vengaeance? depends on stuff but if the vengeanec stays 5km + away the enyo is dead. (unless rail enyo?)
i dont know man sure gallente ships are strong but theres no one race beats all in this game. evrything is situational and fit dependant.
Calling unfair on the vargur because vargurs wtfpwn other marauders. But either way this is what most of us have been trying to say for the last 2 pages.
vargurs are no where near superior to other marauders. I have all 4... vargur is the least interesting. Bastion bennefits it less than the others (because falloff bonus is NOT double the range bonus).
On PVP specially vargur is the weakest. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1559
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Posted - 2014.08.19 10:38:00 -
[66] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Not been playing Eve long? You're asking to revert several balances.
IMHO Gallante ships aren't any better than anything else except being picked for tournament play.
In real Eve, if you are looking for a fair fight you are a silly billy. Gallente has the best ship in the vast majority of ship classes, often to the point that there is literally no situation (other than lack of SP) in which you would ever want to fly any other ship in that class. There is no reason to ever use a non-Mega BS for shooting things, no reason to ever fly a non-Ishtar HAC, no reason to ever use any other dreadnaught than the Moros. The Proteus has near-complete superiority over the other three T3s for PvP as well. Even when you go to cheap ships, Gallente has risen to be the best at everything. The Stabber and Rupture used to be amazing, now the Thorax kicks their asses at everything.
Only 1 thing wrong. Tengu is still superior on some scenarios, since tengu is the best kiting option in game (the hell we reached where the lokis is the WORST kiter of the t3) "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Bastion Arzi
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
121
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Posted - 2014.08.19 11:55:00 -
[67] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:vargurs are no where near superior to other marauders. I have all 4... vargur is the least interesting. Bastion bennefits it less than the others (because falloff bonus is NOT double the range bonus).
On PVP specially vargur is the weakest.
I have to agree with kagura here. the vargur is good but by no means the best. again prolly situational and fit dependant.
to kill a vargur just orbit it close. in crusiers/hacs and bring dps. |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
585
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Posted - 2014.08.19 14:10:00 -
[68] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:vargurs are no where near superior to other marauders. I have all 4... vargur is the least interesting. Bastion bennefits it less than the others (because falloff bonus is NOT double the range bonus).
On PVP specially vargur is the weakest. I have to agree with kagura here. the vargur is good but by no means the best. again prolly situational and fit dependant. to kill a vargur just orbit it close. in crusiers/hacs and bring dps.
Vargur is the most sensible PVP Marauder.
It can tank and DPS without any need for capacitor (You can literally active tank with modules that use cap) - with 2 slot tackle and a MJD, loaded on top of some heavy neuts, you will trash anything that gets close enough to scram, And if it isn't close enough to scram, you can MJD away.
Marauders are only as strong as their cap stability. Yea, the vargur *on paper* will get lower numbers, but in practice it's insanely resilient under E-War pressure. Lots of video's of the other 3 races doing 1v20 is great, but look at the fights where people bring neuts... those are the fights they lose in seconds. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
258
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Posted - 2014.08.19 14:33:00 -
[69] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Vargur is the most sensible PVP Marauder.
It can tank and DPS without any need for capacitor (You can literally active tank with modules that use cap) - with 2 slot tackle and a MJD, loaded on top of some heavy neuts, you will trash anything that gets close enough to scram, And if it isn't close enough to scram, you can MJD away.
Marauders are only as strong as their cap stability. Yea, the vargur *on paper* will get lower numbers, but in practice it's insanely resilient under E-War pressure. Lots of video's of the other 3 races doing 1v20 is great, but look at the fights where people bring neuts... those are the fights they lose in seconds. This applies to all ships to a certain extent. It's one reason why Minmatar ships tend to perform better in practice than they do on paper. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
Maeltstome
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
585
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Posted - 2014.08.19 14:45:00 -
[70] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Vargur is the most sensible PVP Marauder.
It can tank and DPS without any need for capacitor (You can literally active tank with modules that use cap) - with 2 slot tackle and a MJD, loaded on top of some heavy neuts, you will trash anything that gets close enough to scram, And if it isn't close enough to scram, you can MJD away.
Marauders are only as strong as their cap stability. Yea, the vargur *on paper* will get lower numbers, but in practice it's insanely resilient under E-War pressure. Lots of video's of the other 3 races doing 1v20 is great, but look at the fights where people bring neuts... those are the fights they lose in seconds. This applies to all ships to a certain extent. It's one reason why Minmatar ships tend to perform better in practice than they do on paper.
I just ran the numbers again. The ship terrifies me. 800's, heavy/mid/mid neuts, 3 slot tank. PLugged in a pill, mid-grade's and a fleet booster:
900DPS (no drones), 5500 "sustained" DPS tank, Capless.
The Neuts and tackle are just trollface.jpg |
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
258
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Posted - 2014.08.19 14:50:00 -
[71] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:I just ran the numbers again. The ship terrifies me. 800's, heavy/mid/mid neuts, 3 slot tank. PLugged in a pill, mid-grade's and a fleet booster:
900DPS (no drones), 5500 "sustained" DPS tank, Capless.
The Neuts and tackle are just trollface.jpg In defense of the other Marauders, they all have huge cargo holds which makes them ideal for long term (or multiple) cap booster usage to protect from hostile neuts. But, yeah, capless turrets do make that scenario even better. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
Bastion Arzi
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
121
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Posted - 2014.08.19 14:51:00 -
[72] - Quote
dude its not like the thing cant be killed.
to my shame i lost one of these yesterday against a fleet of 22.
everytime i came out of bastion to try and mjd away they instantly scrammed me. they must have been spamming it.
i was essentially stuck without support and went down hard :(
anything that gets close enough to scram u will blap?
nope.
you cant track a cruiser orbiting within scram range with max motion prediction, a 4% motion prediction implant. and maruaders skill at level 5.
thats why i agreee that the vargur may not be the best.
the golem however will always hit and im sure can use XLASBS just like the vargur does.... |
Giuseppe R Raimondo
Lowsey Pirates Inc. Easily Excited
58
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Posted - 2014.08.19 15:03:00 -
[73] - Quote
I am just going to give you a couple exampels.
Moros vs nag, the nag is able to change damage type, guns that use no cap so its able to get to jump cap faster and able to keep shooting under cap presure. Evem thought if its armor tanked it has less tank then a moros its able to have more sebos and tracking comp.
Nyx vs aeon. The nyx does get better damage but its way weaker tank turns out to make them primerys in every armor super fleet. Thats why they are called aeon buffer
Thanny vs archon. Archon gets way better tank and is a way better triage . Thanny only gets better dps.
Amarr ships are the only ones with a ewar bonus that affects a ships tank, dps and ability to burn away.
The gall ewar will leave the enemys locking range at blaster range , making it kind of useless in those situations.
And the best counter for any weapon system has to be smartbombs . They use no ammo and are able to kill all 5 of thr enemy drones at thr same time. And i null stealthbombers are able to bomb the whole ememy drone dps off grid with 2-5 bombs
(Sorry about grammer typing from phone)
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