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Samuel Ahishatsu
Interbellum
0
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Posted - 2014.08.19 00:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, recently I've tried to get into incursion fleets. I was told straight away I would have to scrap the several mil SP I have invested into missiles and move to gunnery. The reason I was given was that missile DPS is delayed DPS and can occur after the target is destroyed. I've believed this for a long time, but recently I've noticed something.
The damage for my missiles actually reaches my PVE target before my missiles do. This is true for Cruise and Heavy missiles at least. What I mean that, at exactly 1/2 of the total cycle time, damage is applied to the target no matter the distance. Have any of you noticed a similar phenomenon? I don't run guns very often, but it seems that guns apply damage with the same timing, at exactly 1/2 the cycle time.
Please comment back if you have experienced a similar delay, or you have tested the delay for guns.
Please DO NOT comment if you want to complain about how missiles suck. (Get your SP up) Or if you want to tell me I am wrong without actually testing it. Also, I don't think that missile fleets will be a thing any time soon or care which you think is better for incursions and why. I'm only interested in the DPS delay of weapons. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1112
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Posted - 2014.08.19 00:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Samuel Ahishatsu wrote:So, recently I've tried to get into incursion fleets. I was told straight away I would have to scrap the several mil SP I have invested into missiles and move to gunnery. The reason I was given was that missile DPS is delayed DPS and can occur after the target is destroyed. I've believed this for a long time, but recently I've noticed something.
The damage for my missiles actually reaches my PVE target before my missiles do. This is true for Cruise and Heavy missiles at least. What I mean that, at exactly 1/2 of the total cycle time, damage is applied to the target no matter the distance. Have any of you noticed a similar phenomenon? I don't run guns very often, but it seems that guns apply damage with the same timing, at exactly 1/2 the cycle time.
Please comment back if you have experienced a similar delay, or you have tested the delay for guns.
Please DO NOT comment if you want to complain about how missiles suck. (Get your SP up) Or if you want to tell me I am wrong without actually testing it. Also, I don't think that missile fleets will be a thing any time soon or care which you think is better for incursions and why. I'm only interested in the DPS delay of weapons.
Without logging in and actually checking, I seem to recall shooting with cruise at 150km seems to take around a full cycle to hit but might be wrong about that.
Are you taking into account the acceleration time before the missiles get up to speed ? At shorter ranges this accounts for most of the time to target - meaning a very similar flight time regardless of range. |
Samuel Ahishatsu
Interbellum
0
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Posted - 2014.08.19 00:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Are you taking into account the acceleration time before the missiles get up to speed ? At shorter ranges this accounts for most of the time to target - meaning a very similar flight time regardless of range. That's it thanks. It had litterally been driving me insane, but yeah. It's definitely delayed when you get out there. Thanks. Sorry to waste time. |
Paranoid Loyd
1477
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Posted - 2014.08.19 00:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
NVM "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1435
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Posted - 2014.08.19 01:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Using RLMLs near their maximum range, the damage of the first cycle hits well into the second cycle. I can be firing on the next target while still waiting for the final blow on the first.
Gun damage is instantaneous + an apparent delay for latency. The circling cycle indicator doesn't always start from the same position either, sometimes making it look like the damage happens further through the cycle. |
GreenSeed
1117
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
the GFX of the missile is client side, the volley has travel time calculated by the server. the problem with missiles in incursions is this: it appears that contests don't work based off damage received, they are based off damage dealt. this is a HUGE game changer for missile boats.
if 7 dudes shoot at one frig in an incursion, while its held down by webs, it will die in one cycle. and the total damage dealt will be missing your missiles unless they land on the same server cycle, not likely with cruises and torps.
this is the theory, in practice missile boats are viable so long as you have your own primaries and can achieve good application. but in the end that complicates things too much, and should the fleet lose a contest they will always blame it on the missile boat, the same way they also blame it on a non pirate battleship if there's any... |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2496
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Samuel Ahishatsu wrote: The reason I was given was that missile DPS is delayed DPS and can occur after the target is destroyed.
It's true, although saying you can "apply DPS" after a target is destroyed is stupid.
Given a 5 second cycle time, and 10s flight time, this is what happens between missiles and guns
t0 = guns fire, hit. Missiles fire t5 = guns fire, hit again. Missiles fire again. t10 = guns fire, hit again. First volley of missiles hits.
(and so on ... Target destroyed, and 1-3 volleys of missiles are still in flight).
Your DPS, Damage per Volley, etc. might very well be the same, but since you're not applying the damage until 10s after the guns, they can get 3 volleys in by the time your first volley hits, so you end up doing lower overall damage to the target (which is the important factor in Incursions), not to mention wasting ammo, because you may still have volleys in flight when the killing blow is dealt.
Obviously these numbers are given for the purposes of an example, and do not necessarily equal real-world values. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
stoicfaux
5294
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
I have noticed the effect mentioned by the OP, but I am pretty sure it I just a visual thing. We should be able use logserver to see exact times between missile launch and the target being hit.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12736
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
RHML will be into their second cycle before the first volly hits at long range. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Lugia3
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
1141
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ever since inferno the visual missiles you see have been slower than your actual missile. Pretty sure pre-inferno missiles were actual representations of where your missiles were. "CCP Dolan is full of ****." - CCP Bettik
Remove Sov! |
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Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
647
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lugia3 wrote:Ever since inferno the visual missiles you see have been slower than your actual missile. Pretty sure pre-inferno missiles were actual representations of where your missiles were.
Even using missiles against stationary targets (I-hubs) I've watched missiles do stupid things in their flight before hitting their target.
Instead of flying in a straight line after leaving the launcher they seem to change direction just before hitting their target. |
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
383
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
I've always thought this was a game-breaker for missiles all around. As a dedicated laser shooter I don't have a dog in this fight, but all the trouble and expense to achieve missile competence comes to naught, and you are denied access to what is supposed to be a BIG part of the "New EVE". Just never made sense to me. It's the kind of (guessing here) unforeseen circumstance that would either A.) Require immediate action! (or) B.) Demand we pretend it's not happening - depending on what management system you're saddled with. Let me guess which type is running THIS show.... Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5342
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:RHML will be into their second cycle before the first volly hits at long range.
Yeah and I've noticed that at 47KM range the target at 43KM showed the missiles never actually hit.
Then it looked like my own ship was getting hit. It's a little buggy. Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
133
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Posted - 2014.08.19 18:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
Its still delayed damage, incursion elitist fleets are all about DPS NOW!!! Thats why its almost entirely gun boats and not drone or missile boats. Plus when contesting a site you want instant applied DPS not delays that might cost you the site Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Samwise Everquest
Because ISK
59
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Posted - 2014.08.20 01:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
Discussed this the other day. It/s not necessarily a problem of clearing the sites with delayed DPS, its a problem when you have to contest another fleet. If you are not contesting missiles could work but unfortunately its dog eat dog in the incursions area so instant DPS is preferred. Maybe one day if only one fleet is allowed through the gate then missile ships would be welcome again. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
586
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Posted - 2014.08.20 04:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:I have noticed the effect mentioned by the OP, but I am pretty sure it I just a visual thing. We should be able use logserver to see exact times between missile launch and the target being hit.
I was playing around with missiles the other day, think I was blitzing low level missions for standings, but yea I noticed that I couldn't rely on where my missiles were in flight AT ALL when it came to volley counting. on a 4bcu t2 rof rig tengu, my heavy missiles were launching the NEXT round when I was watching the first round flying out from my ship.
also I can barely even see the missiles in flight, I mean they look cool when you zoom in on your ship, or the target ship, as you fire them.. but functionally I'd rather use the old missile graphics system from years ago where you could see your glowing balls of death in real time in space. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
587
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Posted - 2014.08.20 04:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Samwise Everquest wrote:Discussed this the other day. It/s not necessarily a problem of clearing the sites with delayed DPS, its a problem when you have to contest another fleet. If you are not contesting missiles could work but unfortunately its dog eat dog in the incursions area so instant DPS is preferred. Maybe one day if only one fleet is allowed through the gate then missile ships would be welcome again.
it is a problem with delayed dps, as delayd dps = wasted volleys = wasted time = less money for everyone in fleet.
hell I hate flying the rattlesnake in pve now. as my volley damage is ~7k and my sentries will hit for 1k or so, and as soon as the target gets into low armor I need to either stop shooting cruise missiles, or switch my sentries to a new target. If I don't then I'm just wasting damage. the missile does either more overkill than it would have, I mean overkill happens and I'm not usually too worried about it, or I could have had the sentries on another target for few volleys. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1200
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Posted - 2014.08.20 04:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Samwise Everquest wrote:Discussed this the other day. It/s not necessarily a problem of clearing the sites with delayed DPS, its a problem when you have to contest another fleet. If you are not contesting missiles could work but unfortunately its dog eat dog in the incursions area so instant DPS is preferred. Maybe one day if only one fleet is allowed through the gate then missile ships would be welcome again.
Even if you are not contesting, you get more applied DPS from a turret ship than a missile one which mean faster sites for faster payout. The damage delay can only be cut by having the missile boat fly in the close range wing so his missile hit warly in their total flight time but many turret boat will give you more DPS from that range anyway. |
Claud Tiberius
61
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Posted - 2014.08.20 06:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Even if you are not contesting, you get more applied DPS from a turret ship than a missile one which mean faster sites for faster payout. Unless the turret misses. Which never happens for missiles Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end. |
Rabe Raptor
The Conference Elite CODE.
29
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Posted - 2014.08.20 07:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
I have always abhorred this simply because I want to see stuff explode when my missiles hit them but they explode before. lol Together we can make Highsec a better place! The Law of Highsec Read it, share it, learn it, quote it, live it! |
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Billy McCandless
The McCandless Clan
446
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Posted - 2014.08.20 07:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
wunce ther wuz a mane who hadd a lidl two much
time on his handes he dint stop two thinck he wuz geddin oldre
Wen his nite cam to a ent, he trie to grassp four his larst frend and pre tent
Thart he culd wiss himsalf helth on a for leef clovver
sorry if furgot wat we wur tawkin abart
oh yeh miss eyels
miss eyels our gud becos yoo downt need two wurrie abart your gridde our stufe ore trance versle butt amyounishun is annoyein
butt eye dew liek howe tehy cane blowe up teh ennymee beefour they hit their spaseship "Thread locked for being deemed a total loss." - ISD Ezwal |
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
386
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Posted - 2014.08.20 12:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Billy McCandless wrote:wunce ther wuz a mane who hadd a lidl two much
time on his handes he dint stop two thinck he wuz geddin oldre
Wen his nite cam to a ent, he trie to grassp four his larst frend and pre tent
Thart he culd wiss himsalf helth on a for leef clovver
sorry if furgot wat we wur tawkin abart
oh yeh miss eyels
miss eyels our gud becos yoo downt need two wurrie abart your gridde our stufe ore trance versle butt amyounishun is annoyein
butt eye dew liek howe tehy cane blowe up teh ennymee beefour they hit their spaseship This might be something to respond to if you could make out what he said.
Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to. |
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
301
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Posted - 2014.08.20 12:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
It rather simple really as your missiles have a flight time and they leave the launch tube at the beginning of the cycle. This obviously means that for short ranges your missiles may well hit the target before the firing cycle is finished.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1200
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Posted - 2014.08.20 12:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Claud Tiberius wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Even if you are not contesting, you get more applied DPS from a turret ship than a missile one which mean faster sites for faster payout. Unless the turret misses. Which never happens for missiles
Tell me more about all the penetrating and wrecking shots your missiles get. |
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
301
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Posted - 2014.08.20 13:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
Issue is not within the actual damage mechanics but your object of concern not being there when the 2nd and 3rd wave of your missile volleys hit the target thus making those 2nd and 3rd volleys wasted. |
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
389
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Posted - 2014.08.20 13:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Baneken wrote:Issue is not within the actual damage mechanics but your object of concern not being there when the 2nd and 3rd wave of your missile volleys hit the target thus making those 2nd and 3rd volleys wasted. That's simple enough to manage. Don't fire the second and third volleys. Let nature take its course. However, that won't remedy the chicken littles who have put a curse on missile boats. Now "it's a known fact" missile ships are SOL. That is no BS. CCP should take note. How these incursions are scored should be altered so a huge percentage of people don't get left out. . . OR...will missiles and launchers fall to the wayside? How big of a problem would it be to phase out a weapon system nobody uses anymore? That looks like a ton of work to me. Cruise missiles, torpedos, FoFs...defensive...seems a lot of time and effort has gone into something just to give it short shrift with a scoring calibration. Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
795
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Posted - 2014.08.20 13:49:00 -
[27] - Quote
My missiles aren't too slow, the target just gives up before they arrive.
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Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
304
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Posted - 2014.08.20 13:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Well, they could make the missiles shoot at the end of the cycle but that would likely mean they would also have to recode something else as well in the modules mechanics and animations. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1200
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Posted - 2014.08.20 14:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:Baneken wrote:Issue is not within the actual damage mechanics but your object of concern not being there when the 2nd and 3rd wave of your missile volleys hit the target thus making those 2nd and 3rd volleys wasted. That's simple enough to manage. Don't fire the second and third volleys. Let nature take its course. However, that won't remedy the chicken littles who have put a curse on missile boats. Now "it's a known fact" missile ships are SOL. That is no BS. CCP should take note. How these incursions are scored should be altered so a huge percentage of people don't get left out. . . OR...will missiles and launchers fall to the wayside? How big of a problem would it be to phase out a weapon system nobody uses anymore? That looks like a ton of work to me. Cruise missiles, torpedos, FoFs...defensive...seems a lot of time and effort has gone into something just to give it short shrift with a scoring calibration.
People just need to realize missiles are not the best tool in the shed for incursion. We no longer mine in battleship for the same reason. The people understood what had to be done to optimize the fleets and ask members to follow those optimization. |
Edmund Andre
EVE University Ivy League
1
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Posted - 2014.08.20 16:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:Baneken wrote:Issue is not within the actual damage mechanics but your object of concern not being there when the 2nd and 3rd wave of your missile volleys hit the target thus making those 2nd and 3rd volleys wasted. That's simple enough to manage. Don't fire the second and third volleys. Let nature take its course. However, that won't remedy the chicken littles who have put a curse on missile boats. Now "it's a known fact" missile ships are SOL. That is no BS. CCP should take note. How these incursions are scored should be altered so a huge percentage of people don't get left out. . . OR...will missiles and launchers fall to the wayside? How big of a problem would it be to phase out a weapon system nobody uses anymore? That looks like a ton of work to me. Cruise missiles, torpedos, FoFs...defensive...seems a lot of time and effort has gone into something just to give it short shrift with a scoring calibration. People just need to realize missiles are not the best tool in the shed for incursion. We no longer mine in battleship for the same reason. The people understood what had to be done to optimize the fleets and ask members to follow those optimization.
Yeah... lets not hope/press for a change to missiles just cause this one instance they're not proving to be the weapon of choice... bring the right tool for the job... |
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