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Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1633
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Posted - 2014.08.20 20:36:00 -
[91] - Quote
Mr. Valerius,
Hubris can often inculcate an inability to see the bars of a gilded cage one lives in. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3985
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 20:36:00 -
[92] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote: I'll admit the Federation isn't living up to its reputation as a bastion of liberty, but it is still a nation where we have the right to get angry and do something about it. Not bow our heads to corporate overlords or an emperor and take it. We still have the choice, and in light of having the Caldari drop a titan on our heads without warning, we choose to endure the hypocrisy for the moment.
At the risk of repeating a conversation that we've all heard and participated in FAR too often, that Titan came there because the Federation brought it there, Claudia. How they ever thought they could get away with stealing the Homeworld of a sovereign people beggars belief.
Look at what the Matari did to get their Home back. Why did you think we wouldn't get as far for ours? "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
731
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Posted - 2014.08.20 20:42:00 -
[93] - Quote
Let's just not go quite as far as the bedoodled ones, though. They have a cause for their warfare, we are on quite a bit more dodgy ground there. There's very little to be gained from further antagonizing each other and quite a bit to be gained from making more peace overtures.
Most of our issues are frankly settled, if we can stop letting bad moments of recent history be the deciding factor in our interactions. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3985
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 21:11:00 -
[94] - Quote
The solution is, as you say, right in front of our faces and remarkably clear. And great strides have been taken towards it.
Once the return of Home is complete, I'd like to think we could normalise relations more officially. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
901
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Posted - 2014.08.20 22:22:00 -
[95] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Claudia Osyn wrote: I'll admit the Federation isn't living up to its reputation as a bastion of liberty, but it is still a nation where we have the right to get angry and do something about it. Not bow our heads to corporate overlords or an emperor and take it. We still have the choice, and in light of having the Caldari drop a titan on our heads without warning, we choose to endure the hypocrisy for the moment.
At the risk of repeating a conversation that we've all heard and participated in FAR too often, that Titan came there because the Federation brought it there, Claudia. How they ever thought they could get away with stealing the Homeworld of a sovereign people beggars belief. Look at what the Matari did to get their Home back. Why did you think we wouldn't get as far for ours? It's not the "why" but the "how" that should have the spotlight. I can see the federations current state of paranoia as being somewhat reasonable. We know better then to expect an act like that to go unanswered, but we should have been able to stop it even with CONCORD preoccupied. But as Ms. Otsito pointed out, the kinks are staring to work out and we really have no reason to fight anymore.... Well, except over-inflated egos, money, and a few people who can't let go of hurt feelings.... The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
235
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 06:11:00 -
[96] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:At the risk of repeating a conversation that we've all heard and participated in FAR too often, that Titan came there because the Federation brought it there, Claudia. How they ever thought they could get away with stealing the Homeworld of a sovereign people beggars belief.
Look at what the Matari did to get their Home back. Why did you think we wouldn't get as far for ours? I don't recall any Intaki threatening to blow up entire planets when the Caldari sold off our home to the highest bidder.
Just sayin', there were more options than "give up" and "kill everybody and everything if we don't get what we want (and maybe still do that anyway if we do get what we want)". |
Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
800
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 11:02:00 -
[97] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote: I don't recall any Intaki threatening to blow up entire planets when the Caldari sold off our home to the highest bidder.
Agreed! I also don't remember any Caldari asking for pachyderm extinction following the great invasion of pink elephants in '99. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1226
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 12:31:00 -
[98] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:I find it odd the talk of treason when I at least was given a standard Caldari State issued corporate Clearance Document upon being registered under the auspices of CONCORD. The description of which exists in SCC databases as:
These documents clear the holder from numerous by-laws and responsibilities within the Caldari State and abroad.
They are issued to capsuleers, who typically operate above the law and are accountable to few people. All this document does is formalize that reality, and as such, is entirely redundant and pointless.
As such it logically follows that any Caldari capsuleer granted their Clearance Documents operating within the CONCORD regulatory framework cannot ever be held to the legal charge of treason in any form whatsoever insofar as they are not held accountable to the laws of the Caldari State or a Corporate Court.
Now, if you would start thinking logically yourself, you would realize that part "accountable to few people" signifies coverage of the statement, and, obviously, these "few people" aren't authorities in the State.
However, unlike outcasts as yourself, there are still many peoples who hold their citizenship papers and still serve the State and not their little egos. When you hold citizenship paper, it makes you accountable to the corporation that issued the said paper, and thus you will answer to laws of the parent corporation as a paper holder. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3989
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 14:48:00 -
[99] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:At the risk of repeating a conversation that we've all heard and participated in FAR too often, that Titan came there because the Federation brought it there, Claudia. How they ever thought they could get away with stealing the Homeworld of a sovereign people beggars belief.
Look at what the Matari did to get their Home back. Why did you think we wouldn't get as far for ours? I don't recall any Intaki threatening to blow up entire planets when the Caldari sold off our home to the highest bidder. Just sayin', there were more options than "give up" and "kill everybody and everything if we don't get what we want (and maybe still do that anyway if we do get what we want)".
Okay, damn you, we'll have this conversation AGAIN then...
Of course Heth was the first man to order an orbital bombardment of Caldari Prime, right? Oh no, wait... I believe the Federation ordered and carried out weeks long bombardments, didn't they? Of civilian targets. Shooting down unarmed freighters crammed with civilians.
In any case, the Senate sold off Intaki to the highest bidder when they made it part of the CEWPA warzone, not the Caldari. The fact that your Homeworld is placed in such a ridiculous position is certainly NOT the fault of the Caldari State and, through Ishukone Corporation, you certainly have absolutely no cause to complain about how it is managed when we do control that system. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1226
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 15:08:00 -
[100] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Bryen Verrisai wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:At the risk of repeating a conversation that we've all heard and participated in FAR too often, that Titan came there because the Federation brought it there, Claudia. How they ever thought they could get away with stealing the Homeworld of a sovereign people beggars belief.
Look at what the Matari did to get their Home back. Why did you think we wouldn't get as far for ours? I don't recall any Intaki threatening to blow up entire planets when the Caldari sold off our home to the highest bidder. Just sayin', there were more options than "give up" and "kill everybody and everything if we don't get what we want (and maybe still do that anyway if we do get what we want)". Okay, damn you, we'll have this conversation AGAIN then... Of course Heth was the first man to order an orbital bombardment of Caldari Prime, right? Oh no, wait... I believe the Federation ordered and carried out weeks long bombardments, didn't they? Of civilian targets. Shooting down unarmed freighters crammed with civilians. Heth never bombed Caldari Prime, Gallenteans did. Lets finish it here.
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
3974
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 15:14:00 -
[101] - Quote
It's a simple fact of Caldari law - any system currently occupied by the Caldari State is, legally speaking, the property of the Caldari State and all planetary resources and real estate within that system may be bid for in whole or piecemeal by Caldari corporations.
The important thing to remember is that the Megacorps are amoral first, moral if they can manage it and it won't cut unacceptably deep into their bottom line. They're not out for a cause or a creed, not even Meritocracy. They're out to turn a profit, and will do everything they legally can and, often, whatever the illegally can get away with without regard specifically for morality. This is true of ALL of them, without exception, no matter what glowing things the Scope might have to say about "nice guy" Ishukone.
The reason I have so much respect for the Mens Reppola administration of Ishukone is that he and his board have somehow managed to build a working business model out of doing the right thing for a price, hence the Intaki and Homeworld contracts and whatever the hell it was that happened with Insorum. I don't think anybody's got to the bottom of that one yet. There's a reason that the Napanii word for "charitable" is euphemistically used to mean "Idiotic". An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
236
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 16:03:00 -
[102] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: In any case, the Senate sold off Intaki to the highest bidder when they made it part of the CEWPA warzone, not the Caldari. The fact that your Homeworld is placed in such a ridiculous position is certainly NOT the fault of the Caldari State
You do your State a disservice by denying it recognition of the independence and agency it has fought so hard to achieve for itself. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3990
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 16:13:00 -
[103] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: In any case, the Senate sold off Intaki to the highest bidder when they made it part of the CEWPA warzone, not the Caldari. The fact that your Homeworld is placed in such a ridiculous position is certainly NOT the fault of the Caldari State
You do your State a disservice by denying it recognition of the independence and agency it has fought so hard to achieve for itself.
You do your Federation an equal disservice when you deny it control over which of it's systems it gave up to the CEWPA carousel. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
901
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 16:31:00 -
[104] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Bryen Verrisai wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: In any case, the Senate sold off Intaki to the highest bidder when they made it part of the CEWPA warzone, not the Caldari. The fact that your Homeworld is placed in such a ridiculous position is certainly NOT the fault of the Caldari State
You do your State a disservice by denying it recognition of the independence and agency it has fought so hard to achieve for itself. You do your Federation an equal disservice when you deny it control over which of it's systems it gave up to the CEWPA carousel. Everyone does everyone a disservice by...... You know what? **** it. Let the shooting commence... The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3990
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 17:35:00 -
[105] - Quote
And this is the problem. Everyone says that things would improve if we just talked but, frankly, some of you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone. Perhaps Diana is right - one big war to settle it for once and all. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
733
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 18:07:00 -
[106] - Quote
Yeah. Big wars have tended to end grudges and lead to great stuff. I mean, just look at... oh... Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
901
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Posted - 2014.08.21 18:27:00 -
[107] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:And this is the problem. Everyone says that things would improve if we just talked but, frankly, some of you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone. Perhaps Diana is right - one big war to settle it for once and all. Hey, scones are yummy. Also, I can get behind the whole "1 war to end them all" Idea. Just gather the fleets meet up somewhere and slug it out, last one standing gets to write the history books and a lot less civilians die on account of political foolishness. The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Skye Nico
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 19:00:00 -
[108] - Quote
People are making the mistake of assuming those in charge are just as infantile as those involved in this particular discussion. Let it rain across the sky. |
Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
801
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 19:27:00 -
[109] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:Yeah. Big wars have tended to end grudges and lead to great stuff. I mean, just look at... oh...
In the case of the great patriotic war? Unity, Integrity, Independence and Sovereignity. This can, without doubt, equally be used outside the context of this thread to describe a certain rebellion.
Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
901
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 19:34:00 -
[110] - Quote
Skye Nico wrote:People are making the mistake of assuming those in charge are just as infantile as those involved in this particular discussion. Bet they are, they're just not as public about it...... Except the Senate, they can get downright juvenile on the debate floor..... The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
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Skye Nico
13
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Posted - 2014.08.21 19:48:00 -
[111] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Skye Nico wrote:People are making the mistake of assuming those in charge are just as infantile as those involved in this particular discussion. Bet they are, they're just not as public about it...... Except the Senate, they can get downright juvenile on the debate floor.....
Don't confuse emotional publicity with the people behind it. Let it rain across the sky. |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
733
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 23:50:00 -
[112] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:Jinari Otsito wrote:Yeah. Big wars have tended to end grudges and lead to great stuff. I mean, just look at... oh... In the case of the great patriotic war? Unity, Integrity, Independence and Sovereignity. This can, without doubt, equally be used outside the context of this thread to describe a certain rebellion.
Agreed. Where do we stand now, though? These just and necessary wars didn't really do much in the way of ending conflicts. "One big war to finish things" is just a ludicrous notion as there'll always be something new to wage war over after that. I'd rather we focused on peace efforts than gearing up for another big war when there's so little to be gained from paying such a price.
The big ones come along when they're needed. There's no need to hasten their coming. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
801
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Posted - 2014.08.22 01:13:00 -
[113] - Quote
True, these conflicts would've been over far sooner if no one would've had the courage to stand up. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
236
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 01:46:00 -
[114] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Everyone says that things would improve if we just talked but, frankly, some of you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone. This criticism brought to you by the man who praises the pain and suffering inflicted upon people defending themselves and others from genocidal invaders, and who advocated on behalf of said genocide in pursuit of making sure the right pieces of cloth are planted on a very specific body of dirt. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3992
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 02:17:00 -
[115] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Everyone says that things would improve if we just talked but, frankly, some of you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone. This criticism brought to you by the man who praises the pain and suffering inflicted upon people defending themselves and others from genocidal invaders, and who advocated on behalf of said genocide in pursuit of making sure the right pieces of cloth are planted on a very specific body of dirt.
The difference between your people and mine, dear boy, is that when my people were told to fire from orbit on civilian targets, they said 'No.' Think about that for a little while. The automaton fascists who are apparently incapable of questioning orders said 'no' when the proud defenders of liberty were quite happy to reduce cities to rubble and target unarmed freighters packed full of refugees.
The problem with the Gallente is that they've always been much, much better at talking a good story than acting one out. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
236
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 03:20:00 -
[116] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: The difference between your people and mine, dear boy, is that when my people were told to fire from orbit on civilian targets, they said 'No.'
Maybe your translator is on the fritz, but "people" is plural. As I recall, only one person said "no". And your people are very fortunate for it. That does not change the fact that the Caldari people as a whole rejoiced at the threats of genocide that reclaimed their homeworld, and wholeheartedly condoned the continuation of that threat indefinitely. It's rather telling, to be honest: the Caldari condemn the massacre of civilians; the Caldari massacre civilians. The Caldari praise a man who wiped out millions by driving his ship into a city; the Caldari curse the name of a man who flew his ship into a station. The Caldari fight a war for near a century in retribution for having death rained down from above; the Caldari threaten the same (likely worse) against multiple planets. If you people weren't so loudly hypocritical, I'd praise your consistency in always doing unto others what they do unto you.
Slightly off-topic point of curiosity: is Caldari Prime home to any native breeds of geese and/or ganders?
You have said in the past that the reclamation of Caldari Prime, nothing more nothing less, was the only goal of the Caldari. You're wrong; which is a shame, because that would have been a very reasonable goal. The Caldari got a taste of conquest and they liked it. They wanted more, and Heth lead them on to believe they deserved it and they could take it. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that ambitions of claiming the whole of Luminaire were not exactly kept discreet.
Now if you'd like to talk about what some U-NATs did (and were punished for and condemned after their regime was toppled) and apply their crimes to the Federation as a whole, then I think a parallel conversation about how the State is responsible for the crimes of the Dragonaurs and the Provists is in order as well. Though I don't think that line of discussion is going to lead anywhere productive, or intellectually honest. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1633
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 05:20:00 -
[117] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: Now, if you would start thinking logically yourself, you would realize that part "accountable to few people" signifies coverage of the statement, and, obviously, these "few people" aren't authorities in the State.
However, unlike outcasts as yourself, there are still many peoples who hold their citizenship papers and still serve the State and not their little egos. When you hold citizenship paper, it makes you accountable to the corporation that issued the said paper, and thus you will answer to laws of the parent corporation as a paper holder.
Actually, both my corporate citizenship and clearance documents are issued by Kaalakiota Corporation. I am only authorized as a citizen of the Caldari State when I issue specific requests for such recognition, usually only when I am required to enter a Kaalakiota corporate enclave whereupon it is reinstated for the duration of my time spent within such territory. In all other cases as a capsuleer operating under the legal jurisdiction of CONCORD and the DED my Kaalakiota Corporate Citizenship remains rescinded as per issued clearance documents by Kaalakiota. As a CONCORD-DED regulated capsuleer I would exist only in the Caldari State as what is in effect an individually incorporated limited liability corporation registered to the SCC.
As such:
1. I can only be charged with treason under the Kaalakiota corporate criminal codes at a time and place when I am reinstated as a Kaalakiota citizen on Kaalakiota territory.
2. In my operations as an SCC registered corporation under CONCORD-DED regulations I could hypothetically be brought before the Caldari Business Tribunal. I cannot however be charged with Treason as a corporation as it remains a criminal charge under Megacorporate criminal codes not the Company Law of the Caldari State.
Upon such elaboration, my earlier statement that accusations against a Caldari capsuleer of treason are diminished to the point of being laughable I believe still remains valid. Because a Caldari capsuleer granted their clearance documents is legally not an individual or corporate citizen liable to criminal prosecution as such. But only hypothetically as a company of which, "Treason" forms no part of CBT Law.
Even in the scenario in which a Caldari capsuleer may be legally charged with treason under a Megacorporate criminal code this would have to involve their reinstatement of corporate citizenship, while being on corporate territory and the charges brought forward by an authorized corporate officer.
Since no CONCORD-DED capsuleer on the IGS is empowered to act on the behalf of a Megacorporation as a member of a police-investigative or criminal prosecution section then yes, any accusations or allegations of Treason remain as I said, the province of personal opinion devoid of any real or actual authority. |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
103
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 07:56:00 -
[118] - Quote
I for one am happy to see that Ms. Kim is still alive and well. I was worried that I was no longer going to enjoy her post on here anymore. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
3994
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 14:18:00 -
[119] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote: You have said in the past that the reclamation of Caldari Prime, nothing more nothing less, was the only goal of the Caldari. You're wrong; which is a shame, because that would have been a very reasonable goal. The Caldari got a taste of conquest and they liked it. They wanted more, and Heth lead them on to believe they deserved it and they could take it. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that ambitions of claiming the whole of Luminaire were not exactly kept discreet.
The reclamation of Caldari Prime is the only thing that kept the State united over our two centuries of existence. It's our rallying cry, our mythology and religion is bound around the physical characteristics of the planet.
Did some people yearn for a more expansionist State? Did Heth? Did he push for it? I can't say that none of that happened - but what didn't happen was a general push towards expansionism.
It's an unfortunate truth that Tibus Heth seems to have wanted to reshape the State in his own image - his own desires and fears. If you feel concerned as Caldari and Gallente head towards peace you must remember that where Tibus Heth's vision stretched farther than restoring the State, it was roundly rejected.
The Caldari do not seek your worlds. We don't want to enforce our ways upon you - except for our way of not interfering outside our borders. All we want is our Homeworld back. But we're not homogenous. There ARE people who dream of profiteering. Of conquest. There are people like that just within the IGS, in fact, as we both know - but they are NOT the State or representatitve of the norm within the State. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
3975
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 14:41:00 -
[120] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:The reclamation of Caldari Prime is the only thing that kept the State united over our two centuries of existence.
I hope that's not entirely accurate. I like to think there's more holding us together than one planet, no matter how important that planet might be. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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