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Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
4010
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Posted - 2014.08.27 14:13:00 -
[151] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:We didn't want those systems anyway?
Like most of the warzone they flip almost weekly. Those systems belong only to the dead. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
742
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:40:00 -
[152] - Quote
Fair enough. Not my playground to roll around in. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Jace Sarice
Sarshitra Corporation
4998
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:53:00 -
[153] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Jinari Otsito wrote:We didn't want those systems anyway? More like it's become impractical to hold them. And a waste of time to try, quite frankly, when our preferred combat style is to patrol them looking for targets. Do you want to 'orbit butan' for hour upon hour? I don't! Let the horde of profiteers do that for whichever side they happen to be flying for this month.
Frankly, it has always been impractical for a militia to hold systems in my opinion. This is the underlying problem with the proxy conflict. Militias are inherently inefficient and less effective, which makes holding systems largely pointless if there is no end in sight to the conflict. If there was a possibility of it ending, you can bet that people on both sides would come flooding out of the woodwork to be involved. But until then, it is just an incredible waste of time to try to organize such an inefficient force for temporary benefits. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
4010
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 17:19:00 -
[154] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:Fair enough. Not my playground to roll around in.
There are two ways of making money in the warzone, Jinari. The first is to carefully and dilligently patrol within military complexes, trying frantically to stay awake for hour upon hour.
The second is to climb into your frigate, light the rear end and ride fire to where the green pinatas await. Then you hit them with your Caldari stick of Heiian and Tech Two loot comes spilling out. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Kucial Ghavera
Stillwater Corporation
351
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Posted - 2014.08.27 19:28:00 -
[155] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Jinari Otsito wrote:Fair enough. Not my playground to roll around in. There are two ways of making money in the warzone, Jinari. The first is to carefully and dilligently patrol within military complexes, trying frantically to stay awake for hour upon hour. The second is to climb into your frigate, light the rear end and ride fire to where the green pinatas await. Then you hit them with your Caldari stick of Heiian and Tech Two loot comes spilling out.
You missed a fairly common third option that does not require being a member of either militia. |
Pieter Tuulinen
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
4010
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 20:52:00 -
[156] - Quote
Kucial Ghavera wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Jinari Otsito wrote:Fair enough. Not my playground to roll around in. There are two ways of making money in the warzone, Jinari. The first is to carefully and dilligently patrol within military complexes, trying frantically to stay awake for hour upon hour. The second is to climb into your frigate, light the rear end and ride fire to where the green pinatas await. Then you hit them with your Caldari stick of Heiian and Tech Two loot comes spilling out. You missed a fairly common third option that does not require being a member of either militia.
To be fair, we hunt pirates in the warzone too. More common than Feddies, half the time. But do pirates actually make money? They usually fly ridiculously blingy ships. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Kucial Ghavera
Stillwater Corporation
362
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Posted - 2014.08.27 20:57:00 -
[157] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Kucial Ghavera wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Jinari Otsito wrote:Fair enough. Not my playground to roll around in. There are two ways of making money in the warzone, Jinari. The first is to carefully and dilligently patrol within military complexes, trying frantically to stay awake for hour upon hour. The second is to climb into your frigate, light the rear end and ride fire to where the green pinatas await. Then you hit them with your Caldari stick of Heiian and Tech Two loot comes spilling out. You missed a fairly common third option that does not require being a member of either militia. To be fair, we hunt pirates in the warzone too. More common than Feddies, half the time. But do pirates actually make money? They usually fly ridiculously blingy ships.
The pirates you mention are as much of a source of income for non-infantile pirates as they are for you. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1641
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 00:29:00 -
[158] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote: Frankly, it has always been impractical for a militia to hold systems in my opinion. This is the underlying problem with the proxy conflict. Militias are inherently inefficient and less effective, which makes holding systems largely pointless if there is no end in sight to the conflict. If there was a possibility of it ending, you can bet that people on both sides would come flooding out of the woodwork to be involved. But until then, it is just an incredible waste of time to try to organize such an inefficient force for temporary benefits.
The primary actors involved in the present CEWMPA conflict on the side of the Caldari State are Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, and Lai Dai all three of which represent almost the entirety of the Caldari military-industrial complex.
The primary actors involved in the present CEWMPA conflict on the side of the Gallente Federation are Roden Shipyards, Duvolle Laboratories and CreoDron all three of which represent almost the entirety of the Federal military-industrial complex.
The rhetoric, ideology, and who holds what systems when and where remain superfluous because for that is not the real interest of companies involved in the business of war. The CEWMPA conflict between the State and Federation represents the ideal war for a military industry: a limited conflict in which little has to be risked to ensure demand for armaments.
What do Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi or Lai Dai really lose in the CEWMPA sectors of Black Rise? The region is barely developed comparatively having only been explored in the last two decades and their station orbital assets there remain guaranteed by CONCORD. In fact, in the short term, having the majority of Black Rise a war zone would mean little interest or pressure on the part of other CEP Megacorps to open Black Rise to them. In the long term thus securing the region in the interests of Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, and Lai Dai alone.
What does the Federal military-industrial complex lose in the CEWMPA sectors of Placid and Essence? Their occupation would serve only to fuel public outrage in the Federation and the necessities of having a perceived credible external threat that would justify the diversion of public funds to companies such as Roden Shipyards and strengthen the political ambitions of the Federation's Hawks and nationalists.
This is a necessary war for both the State and Federation, but not for the cause of any real ideology, but rather that it satisfies certain interests of corporations on both sides of the conflict that wield significant power and influence. It is a mutually advantageous scenario for those that can grasp its benefits, and while I do not believe there will be a conclusion of the conflict in the short term, I can take solace in the fact that its further escalation would be detrimental to the interests of those involved, and those with power, that it should not occur. |
Jace Sarice
Sarshitra Corporation
5250
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 01:30:00 -
[159] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: This is a necessary war for both the State and Federation, but not for the cause of any real ideology, but rather that it satisfies certain interests of corporations on both sides of the conflict that wield significant power and influence. It is a mutually advantageous scenario for those that can grasp its benefits, and while I do not believe there will be a conclusion of the conflict in the short term, I can take solace in the fact that its further escalation would be detrimental to the interests of those involved, and those with power, that it should not occur.
Having particular economic benefits does not mean that it is a 'necessary war.' The economic resources involved could theoretically be applied elsewhere and reap similar benefits. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1641
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 01:56:00 -
[160] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: This is a necessary war for both the State and Federation, but not for the cause of any real ideology, but rather that it satisfies certain interests of corporations on both sides of the conflict that wield significant power and influence. It is a mutually advantageous scenario for those that can grasp its benefits, and while I do not believe there will be a conclusion of the conflict in the short term, I can take solace in the fact that its further escalation would be detrimental to the interests of those involved, and those with power, that it should not occur.
Having particular economic benefits does not mean that it is a 'necessary war.' The economic resources involved could theoretically be applied elsewhere and reap similar benefits.
If a business model proves viable and provides tangible benefits to a company involved then there is little need for another. If the profits of war outweighs the costs of peace, then war should be pursued. This is true of either of the CEWMPA conflict specifically or the present CONCORD regulated war economy in general.
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Jace Sarice
5288
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Posted - 2014.08.28 02:17:00 -
[161] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:If the profits of war outweighs the costs of peace, then war should be pursued.
You are making an assumption about the relative cost-benefit ratio of the resources currently invested in the war being used elsewhere in peacetime. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1641
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 02:26:00 -
[162] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:If the profits of war outweighs the costs of peace, then war should be pursued.
You are making an assumption about the relative cost-benefit ratio of the resources currently invested in the war being used elsewhere in peacetime.
And you were unable to outline your theory. Because the real investments of the CEWMPA conflict by its participants remain minimal so long as the majority of cost is carried by CONCORD freelancers and military contractors.
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Jace Sarice
5288
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 02:30:00 -
[163] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Jace Sarice wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:If the profits of war outweighs the costs of peace, then war should be pursued.
You are making an assumption about the relative cost-benefit ratio of the resources currently invested in the war being used elsewhere in peacetime. And you were unable to outline your theory. Because the real investments of the CEWMPA conflict by its participants remain minimal so long as the majority of cost is carried by CONCORD freelancers and military contractors.
I never claimed to have a theory. My original post had nothing to do with economics. After your response, I have been merely pointing out your assumptions. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1641
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 02:46:00 -
[164] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:
I never claimed to have a theory. My original post had nothing to do with economics. After your response, I have been merely pointing out your assumptions.
Perhaps my initial, shorter response I had in mind to your initial post would have made things clearer:
It is also just an incredible waste of time to try to organize those who profess the pointless platitudes of peace on the IGS so long as they fail to realize the actual reality of the CEWMPA conflict between State and Federation. |
Jace Sarice
5291
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 02:54:00 -
[165] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Jace Sarice wrote:
I never claimed to have a theory. My original post had nothing to do with economics. After your response, I have been merely pointing out your assumptions.
Perhaps my initial, shorter response I had in mind to your initial post would have made things clearer: It is also just an incredible waste of time to try to organize those who profess the pointless platitudes of peace on the IGS so long as they fail to realize the actual reality of the CEWMPA conflict between State and Federation.
I agree that trying to organize virtually any opinion is pointless from the standpoint of results. Capsuleer opinion has very little impact in any particular direction. People do it for ideological reasons, not practical ones. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1641
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 09:01:00 -
[166] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Jace Sarice wrote:
I never claimed to have a theory. My original post had nothing to do with economics. After your response, I have been merely pointing out your assumptions.
Perhaps my initial, shorter response I had in mind to your initial post would have made things clearer: It is also just an incredible waste of time to try to organize those who profess the pointless platitudes of peace on the IGS so long as they fail to realize the actual reality of the CEWMPA conflict between State and Federation. I agree that trying to organize virtually any opinion is pointless from the standpoint of results. Capsuleer opinion has very little impact in any particular direction. People do it for ideological reasons, not practical ones.
Of course, and while these pointless discussions on peace and ideological rhetoric is taking place the practical reality is that the CEWMPA conflict remains a profitable business model. For the Caldari State it can be seen in the following process:
- Under CEWMPA the registered militia organizations are authorized to make available proprietary Naval equipment among others to contracted CONCORD freelancers.
- If one takes a look at the listings of products and takes a look at the products on offer and looks at a Navy Frigate then one can see that no net loss is actually incurred by the militia organization because:
a) If one trades in a standard frigate with a nexus chip then no real net loss is incurred by the Navy in providing a Navy Frigate because in the first place a Navy Frigate is in essence a standardized hull with firmware upgrades and equipment modifications achieved through construction modularity.
b) If one purchases a blueprint for the Navy Frigate then the Navy has made two million ISK for simply providing a licensed digital schematic.
- On the open capsuleer markets a Navy Frigate can fetch a price hundreds of percent higher than either its actual manufacturing cost by a company such as Kaalakiota. As such if a Navy Frigate that might have cost the Caldari Navy between 400,000 and 450,000 according to capsuleer SCC markets is then sold in the Caldari Navy Jita 4-4 station for 15,000,000 ISK then the Navy has just made 225,000 ISK after levying its 1.5% transaction tax from the sale.
- From the above examples then the Navy has just made:
a) 225,000 ISK in addition to effectively recouping the sale of its Navy Frigate in its inventories. b) 2,225,000 ISK for offering to do nothing more than a copy and paste operation from a digital database
It is through transactions of these types that the Caldari Navy is able to leverage its access to propriety technology and intellectual property and their sale to generate profits through the CEWMPA system. It is then through these profits made by extracting value from the decoupled capsuleer SCC markets they can purchase vessels and armaments from State military industries such as Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, or Lai Dai who in having the benefits of industrial economies of scale and integrated supply and production chains can potentially offer that materiel far cheaper comparatively in terms of manufacturing and production costs than that made by an independent capsuleer.
This system would hold true not only of the Caldari Navy and the State Protectorate but also all the involved Navies and Militias currently involved under the CEWMPA conflict. The difference being that out of all its participants, it remains the Caldari Navy and the State that stands to gain the most from such a limited war fought by capsuleer agents and contractors due to the ownership of the Jita 4-4 station.
Knowing this, I remain more than willing to watch and participate in deaths of millions under the CEWMPA war in the short-term when in the long-term it secures the strength and strategic interests of Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, Lai Dai and the wider State.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1226
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Posted - 2014.08.28 12:16:00 -
[167] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Nasty throat infection you've got there.
Besides, we already returned. Past tense. It's "Haajakin Taalen" now. I really don't appreciate your ignorance, Stitcher. If you have returned, it is only to the Maker-forsaken wormhole, where you hide yourself from call of the Winds and duty to Caldari people.
Half of Caldari Prime is still occupied by gallentean invaders. Just like our systems in warzone.
But we are Caldari. And we will return. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1226
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Posted - 2014.08.28 12:18:00 -
[168] - Quote
Eden Deninard wrote:I think at this point in time Caldari Militia and it's mother empire should cut its loses and vacate Black Rise. They have no clear objective in that region. Maybe we will, but not before all gallenteans there will be destroyed and send back in body bags.
Death to occupants! |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1226
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Posted - 2014.08.28 12:19:00 -
[169] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:I just want to know who the hell Kim-baka paid to ghost write this piece. It sure didn't come from her addled mind. Ms. Rella, if your mind is rotten it doesn't mean others are. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1226
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 12:28:00 -
[170] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Jinari Otsito wrote:We didn't want those systems anyway? More like it's become impractical to hold them. And a waste of time to try, quite frankly, when our preferred combat style is to patrol them looking for targets. Do you want to 'orbit butan' for hour upon hour? I don't! Let the horde of profiteers do that for whichever side they happen to be flying for this month. Frankly, it has always been impractical for a militia to hold systems in my opinion. This is the underlying problem with the proxy conflict. Militias are inherently inefficient and less effective, which makes holding systems largely pointless if there is no end in sight to the conflict. If there was a possibility of it ending, you can bet that people on both sides would come flooding out of the woodwork to be involved. But until then, it is just an incredible waste of time to try to organize such an inefficient force for temporary benefits. There are Caldari peoples live in. Maybe it is not practical, but it is what Caldari people do: we fight for each other. And this is what for our profits are used.
Defending is a burden, but it is duty to all those, who live in systems, and we must do our duty, because we are fighting for them. Would you like your home to be occupied by gallenteans? So gallentean soldiers would sleep in your beds, while you were thrown out? When gallenteans would force you to vote for their leaders, so you will have to choose between several incompetent gallenteans to rule you? Or maybe you want to give half of your income to taxes to pay for overgrown bellies of gallentean beurocrates, who eat food they buy on your money? Do you want to hear gallentean swearing on streets, see loitering around your home, or maybe trash, dirt and garbage laying on the roads, or even some illegal drug seller setting his shop near your door?
Why do you think THEY want it? |
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Jace Sarice
5507
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Posted - 2014.08.28 13:20:00 -
[171] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: Knowing this, I remain more than willing to watch and participate in deaths of millions under the CEWMPA war in the short-term when in the long-term it secures the strength and strategic interests of Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, Lai Dai and the wider State.
I am aware of how the system works. As I said before, I was merely pointing out some of your assumptions. Just as you have now once again assumed that the conflict is necessarily in the long-term strategic interests of the State. Maybe it is, maybe it is not - but you are merely assuming that it is purely because it has certain economic benefits. This says nothing about the possibility of economic and strategic benefits of the conflict being over. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1644
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Posted - 2014.08.28 14:12:00 -
[172] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: Knowing this, I remain more than willing to watch and participate in deaths of millions under the CEWMPA war in the short-term when in the long-term it secures the strength and strategic interests of Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, Lai Dai and the wider State.
I am aware of how the system works. As I said before, I was merely pointing out some of your assumptions. Just as you have now once again assumed that the conflict is necessarily in the long-term strategic interests of the State. Maybe it is, maybe it is not - but you are merely assuming that it is purely because it has certain economic benefits. This says nothing about the possibility of economic and strategic benefits of the conflict being over.
Economic benefit translates into real power, both military and political -- that is not an assumption, that is fact. Far better the reality of economic strength and military and political power through the CEWMPA war which are tangibles than the vague and intangible benefits of a peace that are not even described.
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Jace Sarice
5568
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Posted - 2014.08.28 14:28:00 -
[173] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: Economic benefit translates into real power, both military and political -- that is not an assumption, that is fact.
It is also a fact that no event or circumstance is so simple as to contain nothing but economic benefit. There is always opportunity cost, political ramifications, and other factors at play. It is not as simple as you portray it to be. |
Darsena Izuma
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Ocularis Inferno
7
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Posted - 2014.08.28 15:19:00 -
[174] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:anti-gallentean wharblegarble
I can just imagine Ms. Kim waking up in her hangar, walking over to use the toilet, accidentally stubbing her toe on the desk, and hopping around screaming "HELP!! GALLENTEANS ARE ATTACKING ME AGAIN!!!" Fedo are not what they seem to be.-á Welcome to Night Vale. |
Jace Sarice
5593
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:23:00 -
[175] - Quote
Darsena Izuma wrote:Diana Kim wrote:anti-gallentean wharblegarble I can just imagine Ms. Kim waking up in her hangar, walking over to use the toilet, accidentally stubbing her toe on the desk, and hopping around screaming "HELP!! GALLENTEANS ARE ATTACKING ME AGAIN!!!"
The amusement of her banality has long since worn thin. I have had her transmissions blocked for months. I must say it makes things much easier to not have to continually skip past her spam. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1226
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Posted - 2014.08.28 15:28:00 -
[176] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Darsena Izuma wrote:Diana Kim wrote:anti-gallentean wharblegarble I can just imagine Ms. Kim waking up in her hangar, walking over to use the toilet, accidentally stubbing her toe on the desk, and hopping around screaming "HELP!! GALLENTEANS ARE ATTACKING ME AGAIN!!!" The amusement of her banality has long since worn thin. I have had her transmissions blocked for months. I must say it makes things much easier to not have to continually skip past her spam. How many ISK have gallenteans paid you to lick their *censored*? |
James Syagrius
Anshar Incorporated
907
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 23:13:00 -
[177] - Quote
And the GÇ£Forever WarGÇ¥ takes another turn.
For once at least I will keep my own council.
To those who drove the recent turn of events I offer my many facetedGǪ thanks. GǣHere also are the heralds of his praise."
-á
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Elmund Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
61
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Posted - 2014.08.29 01:16:00 -
[178] - Quote
Darsena Izuma wrote:Diana Kim wrote:anti-gallentean wharblegarble I can just imagine Ms. Kim waking up in her hangar, walking over to use the toilet, accidentally stubbing her toe on the desk, and hopping around screaming "HELP!! GALLENTEANS ARE ATTACKING ME AGAIN!!!"
Now I'm imagining Kim checking her ventilation ducts, drawers and closets for sneaky Gallente gutter runners. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1645
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Posted - 2014.08.29 03:17:00 -
[179] - Quote
Jace Sarice wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: Economic benefit translates into real power, both military and political -- that is not an assumption, that is fact.
It is also a fact that no event or circumstance is so simple as to contain nothing but economic benefit. There is always opportunity cost, political ramifications, and other factors at play. It is not as simple as you portray it to be.
It really is, and anything else to the contrary remains nothing short of ineffectual theatre that will not prevent the machinations of the gears of war turning either in the CEWMPA zones or in the wider cluster so long as there exist real economic interests to perpetuate it.
Of course the choice between accepting reality or subscribing to the views and opinions of so many delusional fantasists and their constant streams of platitudes, ideological rhetoric, and cognitive dissonances of whatever variation here on the IGS remains as ever, a personal choice. I'll choose the former rather than the latter.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1228
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 15:20:00 -
[180] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Darsena Izuma wrote:Diana Kim wrote:anti-gallentean wharblegarble I can just imagine Ms. Kim waking up in her hangar, walking over to use the toilet, accidentally stubbing her toe on the desk, and hopping around screaming "HELP!! GALLENTEANS ARE ATTACKING ME AGAIN!!!" Now I'm imagining Kim checking her ventilation ducts, drawers and closets for sneaky Gallente gutter runners. Are you really that naive to fall for such blatant gallentean propaganda? |
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