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Amarisen Gream
Lone Wolf Union Yulai Federation
47
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 08:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I been thinking of ways to make it easier for new players (as well as everyone else) to get into the game.
Skill Synergy (hope that is the word I am looking for)
Idea:
Allow curtain skills to reduce the SP requirements of skills like it.
i.e. Racial Frigate skill - Level 1 Reduces other racial level 1 frigate SP by 1% (up to say 5%)
This would check the highest level of the related skills, and provide a bonus/discount according to best skill. No cumulative reduction between all skills.
i.e. Gallente Frigate V - provides a 5-25% (leaving the real numbers to CCP/CSM) reduction in SP requirements for other Racial Frigate skills.
Why! This would allow New players to get into more racial hulls faster. Limits the pain of chaining racial ship hulls due to increases in skill time. Also - There has to be a logically similar function between the different racial ships... A car made by Ford is a little different for layouts than one made by BMW or another company. Though they are different, the basic functions and purpose remain the same between cars.
Perhaps what I consider to be logically sound in comparisons is way off... I have been proven wrong before.
--This idea could be expounded beyond ship sizes. Could be applied to a number of Skill groups.
Thoughts and ideas!
xoxo Amarisen Gream |
Loonge Shadin
Jufvitte Mining and Refinery
0
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Posted - 2014.08.19 08:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
good idea but I'd leave the racial aspect out of it. this keeps all the different factions and sub-factions equal, providing noone with an advantage over others
Edit: something like having Caldari Frigate V reduces Amarr, Gallette and Minmatar Frigate SP Req, by a % |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
6531
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Posted - 2014.08.19 09:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't see how this helps new players. It seems like it would mainly benefit mid to long term players who have trained their initial race to a good place and are looking to start the same process for a new race. It seems like you just pulled the old "Won't someone please think of the children" -line because the idea is a bit wobbly on its own merits.
As far as the analogy is concerned you seem to draw biased conclusions from it. If piloting one ship is the same as piloting another, you should be able to pilot them all once you have the skills to pilot any one of them in a specific size class. Clearly the limitation there is for gameplay reasons, but it seems your proposed idea isn't any less artificial than the current one. Just saying, that if the illogical nature of the system is the "problem" your idea shouldn't be the one to go with either. Maybe the option to pilot all ships of that class should be made available, but untrained pilots would get a penalty on hulls they don't have skills to use yet. A negative ship bonus if you will. After all it's not entirely illogical, that ships built differently and using different technologies might require a new skillset to operate properly even if there are similarities between them. Current skill levels don't exactly allow you to fly the ship better, but to better use the special abilities that separate them from other ships. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2458
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 09:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
I can't wait to be told how many refunded SP CCP would owe me under a system like this. Maybe I could use all those skillpoints to finish training for a titan. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
323
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 09:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
No = Melcanis' Law No = *sigh* and a million others
IB4L Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2493
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 11:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:No = Malcanis' Law No = *sigh* and a million others IB4L ^This
(with slight editing, because you misspelled Malcanis' name ;)) One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
471
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Posted - 2014.08.19 22:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I can't wait to be told how many refunded SP CCP would owe me under a system like this. Maybe I could use all those skillpoints to finish training for a titan.
this....
already all sub cap 4 races trained to at least 4 (Have 2 racial BS 5's even). Just missing all industrials and transports to be accurate, but saw no need for that. Be a nice pay day sp wise.
Lets not stop there...guns is guns is guns, lets throw them in too. I was taught to fire m16's in the Marines, nothing stopping me from picking up an AK and getting rounds down range, right? Got all those to t2 spec level 4 under old scheme and some at 5. |
Komi Toran
Paragon Trust The Bastion
175
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Posted - 2014.08.20 00:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
Learning Skill Zombie! Quick! Kill it! Kill it with fire! |
Amarisen Gream
Lone Wolf Union Yulai Federation
47
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Posted - 2014.08.20 07:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think some of you missed the point where it only provides a reduction based on the highest level skill. And that this isn't any stacking of the discount. - so it wouldn't matter if you had all 4 factions at 4. You'd only get a 4% (w/e) reduction when training any of them to 5. And once that skill is 5, it would only give a 5% reduction to the others. No stacking bonus. - I would leave combat capitals out of this option at the start. - CCP. Doesn't like to refund SP, so those of us who have skilled them up. Well poo on us (I include myself b/c I have a number of racial ship skills farther along then some. Not all at V but, I would expect a refund nor ask for one.)
- any my RL example was probably bad, but there is a reason I stated that the basics are the same. The massive amounts of SP still required are to fill in the gaps on the racial specific hull perks, or w/e we wanna call them. xoxo Amarisen Gream |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
8956
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Posted - 2014.08.20 07:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
You might want to do the math on this.
This benefits older players much, much more than genuine newbies. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
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Amarisen Gream
Lone Wolf Union Yulai Federation
47
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Posted - 2014.08.20 07:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:You might want to do the math on this.
This benefits older players much, much more than genuine newbies.
Yeah- someone pointed that out already. But thanks for the 2nd notice. Need to probably change title and not include the NPE.
Though it does help them down the long run. xoxo Amarisen Gream |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
329
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
It is also like reintroducing the training skills we got rid off for good reasons, instead of having them separate you just blend them in, same principle though, still a:
NO! Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
644
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Posted - 2014.08.20 11:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Komi Toran wrote:Learning Skill Zombie! Quick! Kill it! Kill it with fire!
Go for the headshot...it'the only way to be sure (short of nuking it from orbit of course) |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2468
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 14:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:- CCP. Doesn't like to refund SP, so those of us who have skilled them up. Well poo on us (I include myself b/c I have a number of racial ship skills farther along then some. Not all at V but, I would expect a refund nor ask for one.)
Maybe you don't understand. CCP doesn't like to refund SP when a skill's function is changed. Changes to how many SP a skill requires? That's a different matter.
They know that an unfathomable rain of hellfire is waiting for them if they don't refund SP when not doing so means that the SP is just removed completely - and from virtually every pilot in the cluster, at that.
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Sentenced 1989
Quantum Anomaly Corporation Proxy
75
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Posted - 2014.08.20 16:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Personally I have pretty much all frigates, destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships to V on most of my toons, but I would endorse this idea as long as it would be based only on sub-capital ships, maybe even sub-battleships.
Why? If you merits are in place indeed, then this should benefit only newer players so that they have some easier time getting in new ships. So for example Racial frigate provides 5% time save at level V towards other racial frigates Racial destroyer provides 4% Racial cruiser 3% Racial battle-cruiser 2% Racial battleships 1%
Or something like that.
PS. Not saying its great idea, just saying I wouldn't mind it becoming reality.
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Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2501
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 17:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sentenced 1989 wrote:Personally I have pretty much all frigates, destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers and battleships to V on most of my toons, but I would endorse this idea as long as it would be based only on sub-capital ships, maybe even sub-battleships.
Why? If you merits are in place indeed, then this should benefit only newer players so that they have some easier time getting in new ships. So for example Racial frigate provides 5% time save at level V towards other racial frigates Racial destroyer provides 4% Racial cruiser 3% Racial battle-cruiser 2% Racial battleships 1%
Or something like that.
PS. Not saying its great idea, just saying I wouldn't mind it becoming reality.
and it STILL favors the vets over the newbs (Malcanis' Law), since we already know how to optimize training plans, and will be able to game the system from the get-go.
Also, you have to consider that as this would be breaking the current training paradigm, many (all) vets would likely be rioting to get the "extra SP" that they "deserve".
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
474
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 22:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Amarisen Gream wrote:- CCP. Doesn't like to refund SP, so those of us who have skilled them up. Well poo on us (I include myself b/c I have a number of racial ship skills farther along then some. Not all at V but, I would expect a refund nor ask for one.) Maybe you don't understand. CCP doesn't like to refund SP when a skill's function is changed. Changes to how many SP a skill requires? That's a different matter. They know that an unfathomable rain of hellfire is waiting for them if they don't refund SP when not doing so means that the SP is just removed completely - and from virtually every pilot in the cluster, at that.
This. We got our SP for learning skills.
With the BC changes we got extra ships trained (which is funny as some complained about the new racials pushing their clones higher in clone costs....goes to show you can't make all the people happy all the time lol).
And in a case like this, ccp would have to give out some compensation. Otherwise you'd have the new players going so I am getting penalized for playing this game 1-2 months (still new players, they should get some love too) before patch over a player yet to play this game but will 1 month after its patch. So ccp risks making bitter noobs. it be failing in the current NPE benefits (NPE for current and paying customers)...and pissing off the vets as well.
Tl;DR, current noobs be protesting in jita alongside bitters.
CCP's out here is to only make that sp readjustment script to get that noob training for SOE frigs and cruisers covered....then run on down the roster of players.
We also hit malcanis' law again with alts another problem. We bitters know how to make alts. It just gets easier for us. I still have my free account code from the CE eve box. If fired up it be a very focused train. vanilla and covert cyno. I save a fair amount of time with all those frig trains (vanilla cyno I train all racials just in case market is out of most frigs). One time main only flew kestrel, friend needed a cyno and guess what......no kestrels (or other caldari frigs) on the market and none in my hangars, doh. I corrected that shortcoming to never happen again. Cyno alts made after this also learned from this mistake. Coverts cyno I tend to chuck on 1-2 co's unlocked at least. Gets me covered for 2 racial co's just in case as well.
Worm alt, gila alt....this gets so much easier as well. |
Amarisen Gream
Lone Wolf Union Yulai Federation
47
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 03:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Updated. Check op xoxo Amarisen Gream |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5958
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 03:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
It still reeks of "Learning Skills."
These skills basically mandate** a person to train them up to a certain level so they can "train optimally"... for no other benefit other than the train up other skills... which is pretty much learning skills did.
Not Supported.
**Yes, I said "mandate." Because when something gives a permanent, tangible reward that is extremely useful for so many things then it is basically "mandatory." Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 05:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
My own sentiments echo those of other posters here. These are learning skills all over again and they benefit older players FAR more than they benefit new players. It adds unnecessary complexity to the skill system and would create an uproar among players concerning SP reimbursement. |
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Jessi Gray
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.08.22 07:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
scrap the skill just make it be default and make it work the other way around
not having any frig to V give u a % bonu to training all racial frig skills but having at least 1 will take it back to what it is now.
that would help new players not harming older and would not be to strong cause it would only help u train to lvl IV and 1 to V |
Amarisen Gream
Lone Wolf Union Yulai Federation
47
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 08:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jessi Gray wrote:scrap the skill just make it be default and make it work the other way around
not having any frig to V give u a % bonu to training all racial frig skills but having at least 1 will take it back to what it is now.
that would help new players not harming older and would not be to strong cause it would only help u train to lvl IV and 1 to V
Thank you for thoughtful feed back.
As a reply to the remark of it being mandatory- I must say no. If your focus was to have a toon in a specific hull and purpose than you'd never touch this skill. Even if you where going for pirate hulls you might not even touch this skill. But I am all ears if you can figure out a game mechanic that helped new players more than mid-long term players. I feel hat I am at least trying to provide ideas that can make improvements to the game as a whole. And yes, you all are giving reasons why it probably won't work, but your missing the other half and that is what would it need to make something like this balanced so it did work. It is one of the reasons why I list a few limits on what it effected. Those limits could be made even harsher to balance it out.
If I could think of something that allowed new players and everyone else to be on a even playing field I would have suggested it. The only thing that comes to mind on that topic is that active mods would provide SP to their required skill.
Sorry for the rant. But please provide more than just a "it won't work." Or w/e most of the replies have been. Because as it stands, something needs to be thought up and hashed out by the players that allows us to bring in a new generation of EVE players. EVE is harsh, and as it stands the longer you have played the better off you will always be compare to newer players. xoxo Amarisen Gream |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 11:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
so now new players have to train a new skill to save on training time making it even longer from the start before they can train usefull skills didn't we get rid of the attribute skills for just that reason |
Lugh Crow-Slave
Guardians of the Morrigan
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 11:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jessi Gray wrote:scrap the skill just make it be default and make it work the other way around
not having any frig to V give u a % bonu to training all racial frig skills but having at least 1 will take it back to what it is now.
that would help new players not harming older and would not be to strong cause it would only help u train to lvl IV and 1 to V
so as a vet making an alt i know to train all my frigs to IV before getting one to V but as a new player i get one to V and screw myself |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
338
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 12:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Read the edit. It's still the same problem and still redundant. Check training skills and skill aquisition, should give you a hundret hits and more reasons why this is not a good idea. Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Amarisen Gream
Lone Wolf Union Yulai Federation
48
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 14:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:Read the edit. It's still the same problem and still redundant. Check training skills and skill aquisition, should give you a hundret hits and more reasons why this is not a good idea.
The training skills where before my time > and my understanding is they just baked them in to the game.
If this wasn't a skill to trained, as it has been said, it would be a nice thing to bake into the game. At least then it effects everyone the same.
It wouldn't effect those who know what their doing if they are specializing an alt or a first toon, if they know what they are doing. But it would help players who may have started with one faction, and want to expand into another faction or weapon platform without taking months to adjust.
And thank you for your continued feedback throughout all the F&I. xoxo Amarisen Gream |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
339
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 14:50:00 -
[27] - Quote
saw what you did there
You are not realizing that it does not matter, as with all the redundant skill discussions we had regarding new players or whatever. Everything perceived today as bad (insufficient SP), implemented tomorrow will look exactly for the new crowd as it looks now for the old crowd in a few weeks. Nothing changes for the mindset of the people, the only thing it does is dumbing down the game and giving early rewards to soon, too easy, challenges and commitment disappear etc etc .. the game becomes the casual washout all other games share ... it is detrimental and is only a short term perceived betterment. And that shoudl be all that needs to be said about it.
It is only a perceived problem - there is no real problem. Next Thread will be "Training for Titans is to brutal for beginners!" - Essentially or rather factual correct , but still a mentally re-turd-ed statement.
And I bet you still haven't checked out Malcanis' Law yet, at least you are not addressing it.
Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
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