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JAF Anders
Quantum Cats Syndicate Repeat 0ffenders
290
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Posted - 2014.08.19 18:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
Shooting a jammed target is directly comparable to mining. The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts. |
Aves Enderas
Quantum Cats Syndicate Repeat 0ffenders
2
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Posted - 2014.08.19 19:19:00 -
[32] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:THere are no "Protection from Nuets" or "protection from webs" skills
Now sure people will still complain when they get jammed, but at the end of the day its all fine where it is. Imagine if every form of Ewar had a chance to work, a chance your nuet burns cap and does nothing to the target, a chance your web suddenly wont slow a ship down and an expensive ship escapes or you lose an expensive ship because of it. There would be a general outcry to fix that if it were implemented.
You dont see very many falcon pilots asking for guarenteed [sic] jams every cycle if your [sic] in range, so why can't people settle for the current state of them when they really are fine as is.
The difference being, of course, that webs/neuts don't completely disable your ship like ECM. They only disable one aspect of your ship. Also, having to fit ECCM into a mid/low slot is a waste of a slot. Unlike the "counters" to nueting, which involve cap boosters which are at least a boon to all your other mods by virtue of having cap to use them. In addition, ECCM is also wasted should ECM never appear on field. In contrast, cap boosters still provide some effect by injecting cap even if no nuets are present.
QCATS is recruiting
http://www.repeat0ffenders.com/content.jsf;jsessionid=iwPhJXI31titATjMHUQgIIB-.undefined?contentId=qcats_recruitment |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1851
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Posted - 2014.08.19 19:22:00 -
[33] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:Copy and paste from another tear ECM forum to this one: here my opinion of ECM
I love ECM personally, Ive been perma jammed a few times myself, but i've also used it to great effect to save assets or turn a fight. Drop 4 falcons in and it really gives you some wiggle room with what you can do against a much larger gang, even kitsunes can do it and their cheaper, they just don't warp cloaked or take a Black Ops Bridge.
What most people don't realize is ECM is balanced quite well, here's why:
1. Sensor compensation skills - these reduce the effectiveness of enemy ECM aside from long range targeting or nav skills to counter damps or webs ( and these werent even desinged as direct counters but secondary counters ) this is the ONLY skill that reduces the effectivness of enemy ewar. THere are no "Protection from Nuets" or "protection from webs" skills
2. ECCM - Much like cap batterys or sensor boosters these help you overcome ECM like battery's help against nuets and Sebo's help against damps. Providing yet another layer of protection from ECM
3. ECM is the ONLY Chance based EWAR in the game, every other form of ewar works if your range 100% of the time ( but may lose some effect ) while ECM has a chance to jam, ive lsot probably a dozen falcons because i missed jams and was tackled or missed jams on a tornado and got alpha'd. It happens more often than you think.
4. ECM was nerfed a few months back reducing total strength of jams when not overheated, the result is now ALL Jam boats have to overheat to get the same strength as before, thus risking a burnout and loss of jams.
5. ECM only works on Bonused ships to any effect - Ever used a multispec on a Golem or on a Exequoror? Its not that great, same with ECM bursts on a typhoon and so on, sure your bound to get some lucky jams but without bonuses to their optimal, strength, or cap use its a horribly ineffective technique. Unlike all the other forms of ewar which still work just fine on their own. Hence why the meta is nuets on PVP ships and everyone runs with a web.
Now sure people will still complain when they get jammed, but at the end of the day its all fine where it is. Imagine if every form of Ewar had a chance to work, a chance your nuet burns cap and does nothing to the target, a chance your web suddenly wont slow a ship down and an expensive ship escapes or you lose an expensive ship because of it. There would be a general outcry to fix that if it were implemented.
You dont see very many falcon pilots asking for guarenteed jams every cycle if your in range, so why can't people settle for the current state of them when they really are fine as is.
^^ this +1
I'll add that ECCM provides a huge bonus (around +100%), unlike other EWAR counters.
And that point 5 (bonused ships) helps a lot in the metagame (especially for solo work): as soon as you spot an ECM hull on dscan, you know exactly what it's going to do. Conversely, if no ECM hulls are present, you can be pretty much sure nobody will jam you. Can't say the same for neuts, damps, tds, webs, etc. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
136
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Posted - 2014.08.19 19:26:00 -
[34] - Quote
Aves Enderas wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote:THere are no "Protection from Nuets" or "protection from webs" skills
Now sure people will still complain when they get jammed, but at the end of the day its all fine where it is. Imagine if every form of Ewar had a chance to work, a chance your nuet burns cap and does nothing to the target, a chance your web suddenly wont slow a ship down and an expensive ship escapes or you lose an expensive ship because of it. There would be a general outcry to fix that if it were implemented.
You dont see very many falcon pilots asking for guarenteed [sic] jams every cycle if your [sic] in range, so why can't people settle for the current state of them when they really are fine as is.
The difference being, of course, that webs/neuts don't completely disable your ship like ECM. They only disable one aspect of your ship. Also, having to fit ECCM into a mid/low slot is a waste of a slot. Unlike the "counters" to nueting, which involve cap boosters which are at least a boon to all your other mods by virtue of having cap to use them. In addition, ECCM is also wasted should ECM never appear on field. In contrast, cap boosters still provide some effect by injecting cap even if no nuets are present.
Nuets can completely disable certain ships actually, if your perma nueted in a balster or laser boat your lucky to keep your tank running long enough to catch reps some times. And all too often cap boosters fail to keep up or run out of charges resulting in dead ships. Unlike ECM however which cannot jam smartbombs, FOF Missiles, or certain ships which can still be neuted.
Webs have no chance of disabling your ship of course but they do in essence shut down your ability to kite or keep range.
Also with the advent of mobile refit abilities theres no reason not to keep ECCM in cargo just in case you run into a jam ship or two. I travel with an extra rack of it all the time just in case even though i use ECM liberally i still prepare for the outcome of possibly running into more ECM than i have the ability to handle. Even if i give up my web to avoid being jammed it still gives me the ability to fight back more effectively than i would have trying to wait the cycle out and get another web on someone. Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Moglarr
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis CALSF
3
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Posted - 2014.08.19 19:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
Aves Enderas wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote:THere are no "Protection from Nuets" or "protection from webs" skills
Now sure people will still complain when they get jammed, but at the end of the day its all fine where it is. Imagine if every form of Ewar had a chance to work, a chance your nuet burns cap and does nothing to the target, a chance your web suddenly wont slow a ship down and an expensive ship escapes or you lose an expensive ship because of it. There would be a general outcry to fix that if it were implemented.
You dont see very many falcon pilots asking for guarenteed [sic] jams every cycle if your [sic] in range, so why can't people settle for the current state of them when they really are fine as is.
The difference being, of course, that webs/neuts don't completely disable your ship like ECM. They only disable one aspect of your ship. Also, having to fit ECCM into a mid/low slot is a waste of a slot. Unlike the "counters" to nueting, which involve cap boosters which are at least a boon to all your other mods by virtue of having cap to use them. In addition, ECCM is also wasted should ECM never appear on field. In contrast, cap boosters still provide some effect by injecting cap even if no nuets are present.
Unless your fit doesn't require a cap booster, which I don't think is too hard to imagine. In that case the cap boosted is just as much a "wasted slot" of you never run into a neut boat.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2452
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Posted - 2014.08.19 20:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
Aves Enderas wrote:The difference being, of course, that webs/neuts don't completely disable your ship like ECM. T
ECM doesn't affect movement, nor scanning, nor self repping, nor launching drones or F.O.F missiles - among other things...
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
767
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 20:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
but it is retardedly broken |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
368
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Posted - 2014.08.19 20:06:00 -
[38] - Quote
The difference with other ewar though is you can still fight back. You are not stuck watching the **** screen for 20 seconds (a long time in pvp, and possible even with jerking off) as you are with ecm.
If neuted, keep shooting (if capless weapons), or send drones. Besides, typically it takes more than one cycle to be neuted dry, so try to get out of range, broadcast for cap, whatever, you still have options.
If webbed, keep shooting, send or assign drones . . .
If damped, fly closer to the damp ship or to another target. Damps don't damp you to zero. Or wait a little longer to lock if scan res damped. Lock someone close to you and remote buff them if you have such modules. You still have active options.
TD's affect is similar to damps. So the same piloting counters can apply. Watch angular motion, get closer to target ~
If painted, laugh maybe. It's usually not that serious.
But, if jammed, you can't take any actions as a player to mitigate the effect. You have to wait the full cycle and hope the successive cycle does not land. You may have FoF or your drones may have already been out, not targeted on anything else, and on aggressive. But really you have no way to direct those weapons.
It is the lack of any effective player directed counter or otherwise helpful to your buddies actions that makes ECM the horrible game mechanic it currently is.
That being said, the introduction of the sensor integrity skills and the successive ecm nerfs have helped reduce ecm to slightly tolerable. It would still be nice to not have so much of combat dependent on acquiring a lock. Or to have ecm be some other mechanic in the game, that would allow contemporaneous player directed actions either to counter or still be able to do something useful in the fight. CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, please give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals. |
Rabe Raptor
The Conference Elite CODE.
22
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Posted - 2014.08.19 20:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:If you use it.
You're a disgrace to pvp.
You're a disgrace to gaming in general.
And you should be ashamed of yourself.
That is all.
"Wouldn't it be fun if all fights consisted of both parties hitting 'keep at xxx' and pressing f1?" Together we can make Highsec a better place! The Law of Highsec Read it, share it, learn it, quote it, live it! |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
767
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 20:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
just get closer to the 8km/s hookbill? I didn't think of that |
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Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Caldari Armed Forces.
807
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 21:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:so a nice counter to ecm is just to never engage anything
if you know enemy has ecm you should fight it with right setup, not with ship that needs webs to work. |
Talas Dir
Super Happy Fun Corp
47
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Posted - 2014.08.19 21:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
"THERE ARE THOSE WHO THINK USING ECM IS "DISHONOURABLE". JAM THEM FIRST, AND KILL THEM LAST."
J-IRAI "FATAL": LAITANEN |
Princess Bride
Corripe Cervisiam Trade Consortium
635
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 00:14:00 -
[43] - Quote
2012 called and wants its tears back. http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/ |
Sollis Vynneve
C.Q.B
20
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Posted - 2014.08.20 08:00:00 -
[44] - Quote
So you are butt hurt then. Its a shame I didn't have my scanner alt around when you rage logged would have liked to have killed your pod too. btw your tears fuel our jams. |
Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
487
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
Sollis Vynneve wrote:So you are butt hurt then. Its a shame I didn't have my scanner alt around when you rage logged would have liked to have killed your pod too. btw your tears fuel our jams.
Not going to lie, despite the absolutely golden tears this incident has produced.
Using a Griffin alt does make you a skill-less ganking tryhard.
But still, epic tears. |
Sollis Vynneve
C.Q.B
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:41:00 -
[46] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Sollis Vynneve wrote:So you are butt hurt then. Its a shame I didn't have my scanner alt around when you rage logged would have liked to have killed your pod too. btw your tears fuel our jams. Not going to lie, despite the absolutely golden tears this incident has produced. Using a Griffin alt does make you a skill-less ganking tryhard. But still, epic tears.
Alt? No alt . But ecm evens the field whens I'm out and get a small 7 man frig fleet try to **** my ship. Lets just call it it an anti blob tactic we have used to great effect taking on a 15 man fleet with 1 griffin and 4 dps ship really doesn't make us skill less. Lol |
Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
487
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 09:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
Real men don't need Griffins to separate dummies. |
Maekchu
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
72
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:05:00 -
[48] - Quote
What is this ECM you speak of? |
Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
29
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:38:00 -
[49] - Quote
Yea
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Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
29
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:48:00 -
[50] - Quote
Sollis Vynneve wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:Sollis Vynneve wrote:So you are butt hurt then. Its a shame I didn't have my scanner alt around when you rage logged would have liked to have killed your pod too. btw your tears fuel our jams. Not going to lie, despite the absolutely golden tears this incident has produced. Using a Griffin alt does make you a skill-less ganking tryhard. But still, epic tears. Alt? No alt . But ecm evens the field whens I'm out and get a small 7 man frig fleet try to **** my ship. Lets just call it it an anti blob tactic we have used to great effect taking on a 15 man fleet with 1 griffin and 4 dps ship really doesn't make us skill less. Lol
Yea, next time try flying alone, and do try to resist the urge to fly tristans... |
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1857
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:15:00 -
[51] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:Yea, next time try flying alone, and do try to resist the urge to fly tristans, you mean bully! FTFY Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |
Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
29
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:32:00 -
[52] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Verlyn wrote:Yea, next time try flying alone, and do try to resist the urge to fly tristans, you mean bully! FTFY
Either you fail at reading comprehension, or you havent a clue. |
lord xavier
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
23
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Posted - 2014.08.20 12:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:It was late, logged off midfight as soon as I saw him use ecm. Couldn't be bothered. His buddy mustve warped in later on. As for the fit, I've tanked and killed comets and hookbills in brawls easily enough with it. For as long as... no ecms are involved, It's actually quite good, but takes good rl reaction skills to use properly, and not something good old Danny here understands very well. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=22639269plate ion incrusus... *facepalm*
So, instead of waiting trying to peel off, or waiting for the griffin to miss a jam, because even at max EWAR skills I still miss jam cycles, even in a falcon/widow/Kitsune/Whatever else gives ECM Bonuses, you just gave up and said "Screw it. You can have my ball! I am going home to tell my mommy!"
That is just pathetic for someone that calls themselves a PVPer instead of just putting a note on them and adding them to watchlist as "ECM (disgruntled derogatory word of choice)"
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Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
29
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Posted - 2014.08.20 12:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
lord xavier wrote:Verlyn wrote:It was late, logged off midfight as soon as I saw him use ecm. Couldn't be bothered. His buddy mustve warped in later on. As for the fit, I've tanked and killed comets and hookbills in brawls easily enough with it. For as long as... no ecms are involved, It's actually quite good, but takes good rl reaction skills to use properly, and not something good old Danny here understands very well. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=22639269plate ion incrusus... *facepalm* So, instead of waiting trying to peel off, or waiting for the griffin to miss a jam, because even at max EWAR skills I still miss jam cycles, even in a falcon/widow/Kitsune/Whatever else gives ECM Bonuses, you just gave up and said "Screw it. You can have my ball! I am going home to tell my mommy!" That is just pathetic for someone that calls themselves a PVPer instead of just putting a note on them and adding them to watchlist as "ECM (disgruntled derogatory word of choice)"
Yea, when i realised i traded a good time in bed for supressed online homosexuals, i didnt stop to think on it. You're right, shame on me.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
1858
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Posted - 2014.08.20 13:15:00 -
[55] - Quote
Verlyn wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Verlyn wrote:Yea, next time try flying alone, and do try to resist the urge to fly tristans, you mean bully! FTFY Either you fail at reading comprehension, or you havent a clue. Or maybe I fly solo too, but without the whining. I'd find it hard to see my screen clearly if my eyes were so filled with tears. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter! |
Danny John-Peter
Snuff Box
488
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 13:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
This thread really is going places.
Also don't make abuse out of peoples social choices in life. |
Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
29
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Posted - 2014.08.20 13:31:00 -
[57] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Verlyn wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Verlyn wrote:Yea, next time try flying alone, and do try to resist the urge to fly tristans, you mean bully! FTFY Either you fail at reading comprehension, or you havent a clue. Or maybe I fly solo too, but without the whining. I'd find it hard to see my screen clearly if my eyes were so filled with tears.
Kiters have nothing to whine about. |
CrAzY AnNiE
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
8
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Posted - 2014.08.20 15:05:00 -
[58] - Quote
JAF Anders wrote:Shooting a jammed target is directly comparable to mining.
Seems legit if you're mining tears. |
Rezan Tepet
Partial Safety
25
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Posted - 2014.08.20 15:34:00 -
[59] - Quote
JAF Anders wrote:Shooting a jammed target is directly comparable to mining. Ssh. CODE may hear you and start adding eWar ships to their list of targets. oaramos: |oh-WAR-uh-mohs| n. GÇö-áTerm given to early Caldarian wormhole explorers. From Rataani language; literally, "Wave-jumper."-á adj. GÇö-á[see: "moss" "mossy"] slangGÇö crazy, insane |
Verlyn
Sisters of Xambu
29
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 16:23:00 -
[60] - Quote
CrAzY AnNiE wrote:JAF Anders wrote:Shooting a jammed target is directly comparable to mining. Seems legit if you're mining tears.
Well I could make it a vocation to focus on hunting and jamming jamming feggets all day as well, if it werent so ******* boring, and I was a fegget. |
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