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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
4593
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
The EVE Community is a group of incredibly skilled and passionate individuals as proven over and and over again (some joining the ISD volunteer program). Pointing out bugs, reporting them to our developers and supporting the dev teams with information and logs shows how skilled and passionate you are.
With the introduction of the new bug reporting system a while ago, two vital things were still missing: the ability to communicate between you and the developers/volunteers and the ability to see and edit your bug report.
CCP Goliath brings good news that you now can communicate with the developers/volunteers (and the developers/volunteers with you) and that you can edit your bug report.
To learn more about all the improvements to bug reporting check out CCP Goliath's latest blog An Update on Bug Reporting, Part 3! CCP Phantom - Senior Community Representative - Volunteer Manager |
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Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
702
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
I found a bug:
Quote: Can't find item Sorry, we could not find the item you were looking for.
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
4593
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:I found a bug: Quote: Can't find item Sorry, we could not find the item you were looking for.
This has been fixed now, thank you for reporting this bug! CCP Phantom - Senior Community Representative - Volunteer Manager |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2356
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Looking forward to discussing any feedback you lovely people have! Stay classy though CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
36
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nice improvement there.
Though for my few reports - oldest one is from 2014/03/23 - none of the following communication from CCP or myself can be found there. Will the comments section be filled with the 'chat history' (from both sides) starting now. Or is that a later improvement? |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1492
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
i really like the idea of a system that would allow us to priorize your work :)
there are some bugs out there, older than the internet that annoy us every now and then, it would be great to have a way to bring them to CCPs attention Build your empire ! Start today ! Rent Space in Perrigen Falls and Feythabolis Contact me for details :)
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CCP Lebowski
C C P C C P Alliance
182
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
QA Dev Blog FTW!
Massive thanks to all you folks who submit bug reports, you guys rock! I cant tell you how great it will be to be able to have direct communication with you all now CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/ccp_lebowski |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2358
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
ArmEagle Kusoni wrote:Nice improvement there.
Though for my few reports - oldest one is from 2014/03/23 - none of the following communication from CCP or myself can be found there. Will the comments section be filled with the 'chat history' (from both sides) starting now. Or is that a later improvement?
It''s from now, and you will only be able to see comments that have been explicitly tagged as being publically viewable. Internal comments will still be internal. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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Kusum Fawn
State Protectorate Caldari State
517
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Posted - 2014.08.19 16:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Any word on when you guys will be publishing lists of intended features and intended behavior changes ? The vast majority of things that I see as bugs are apparently working as intended initially and later revealed to be bugs/exploits. Having a list somewhere that you guys actually make public and/or keep updated for things being worked on would go a longer way to help reporting then updating the graphics behind the bug reporting system
Dev blog wrote: ThereGÇÿs also an idea that the QA department have been toying around with GÇô that of making a section of our defect tracker GÇPpublicGÇ£, and allowing you to vote on legacy issues to let us know where you would most value our efforts be focused when we work on technical debt. This is an idea very much in a raw state, and any thoughts or feedback that you have towards this (even if itGÇÿs just saying GÇPIGÇÿd use it!GÇ£) are hugely appreciated.
Something like this would also be incredibly useful as a way to promote things that are important to the general eve community (and not just the small vocal minority who work with POS) however your (CCP as a whole) general refusal to listen to Sisi feedback makes me believe that things which are defects but somehow seen as feature requests (Tool Tips sliders, Industry UI inputs list vs graphics display) will simply be ignored yet again in another format despite them not working as intended.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2358
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:i really like the idea of a system that would allow us to priorize your work :)
there are some bugs out there, older than the internet that annoy us every now and then, it would be great to have a way to bring them to CCPs attention
Thanks for the feedback! We can always make our best guesses (backed with data ofc) as to what legacy fixes people do and don't care about, but getting some extra, invested, eyes on it could be really interesting. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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ArmEagle Kusoni
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
36
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:ArmEagle Kusoni wrote:Nice improvement there.
Though for my few reports - oldest one is from 2014/03/23 - none of the following communication from CCP or myself can be found there. Will the comments section be filled with the 'chat history' (from both sides) starting now. Or is that a later improvement? It''s from now, and you will only be able to see comments that have been explicitly tagged as being publically viewable. Internal comments will still be internal.
Ok, great! I always found it a hassle to look through old e-mails to figure out the communication.
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Green Gambit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
63
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Regards to voting up bugs/features...
Something like Ideastorm would be cool, where the community can suggest ideas and all subscribed accounts get to up-vote their favourite three ideas (can change your votes at any time etc) would be pretty cool. It would certainly be a good way for you to get a good impression of what areas are important to the player-base.
The same tool could be used for F&I suggestions, bugs, "little things" etc separately.
http://www.ideastorm.com/ |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2358
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Any word on when you guys will be publishing lists of intended features and intended behavior changes ? The vast majority of things that I see as bugs are apparently working as intended initially and later revealed to be bugs/exploits. Having a list somewhere that you guys actually make public and/or keep updated for things being worked on would go a longer way to help reporting then updating the graphics behind the bug reporting system
I'm not 100% sure I follow what you mean... When you say "lists of intended features", do you mean like the "Coming In Hyperion" blog that Seagull wrote last week, or something different?
Kusum Fawn wrote: Something like this would also be incredibly useful as a way to promote things that are important to the general eve community (and not just the small vocal minority who work with POS) however your (CCP as a whole) general refusal to listen to Sisi feedback makes me believe that things which are defects but somehow seen as feature requests (Tool Tips sliders, Industry UI inputs list vs graphics display) will simply be ignored yet again in another format despite them not working as intended.
Thanks very much for telling us how you feel. Sorry that you don't think we take Sisi feedback on board, but I assure you the teams are as diligent as possible when it comes to reading the threads and discussing the ideas in them! That being said, the items in the hypothetical list would already have been acknowledged by us to be issues, so does that go some way to mitigating your concerns? CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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Nicen Jehr
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
398
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Why don't you have a Closed resolution, "Fixed" ?
Also, I would use a public bug tracker where I could vote on priorities. But I'd extend it to be feature requests too. And add tags, like 'little thing', this way you wouldn't have to go through the huge hassle of "post little things in thread, parse posts into machine readable format, have CSM put up a voting app", and new suggestions would be immediately votable. Little Things to improve GëíGïüGëí-á| My Little Things posts |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2358
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Green Gambit wrote:Regards to voting up bugs/features... Something like Ideastorm would be cool, where the community can suggest ideas and all subscribed accounts get to up-vote their favourite three ideas (can change your votes at any time etc) would be pretty cool. It would certainly be a good way for you to get a good impression of what areas are important to the player-base. The same tool could be used for F&I suggestions, bugs, "little things" etc separately. http://www.ideastorm.com/
Thanks for the link! Will check it out later and let you know my impressions! CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
407
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
I would probably use it :) |
Masao Kurata
Z List
72
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Hmm, I'm glad that this is finally here but the status of bug reports seems a bit nonsensical with just the user facing information here. Some of my bug reports that were fixed have the status "attached" (e.g. EBR-18707), so I guess on your system the associated defect is marked fixed but.... there's no indication of this in my interface. On the other end I have bug reports that are "closed" but are clearly unfixed bugs (e.g. EBR-19074) and I really need to know why they were closed or I'll just keep reporting them endlessly. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3815
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
the doodad on the ship stops doing the thing when you wiggle it a little and click a lot, but only sometimes on tuesdays. please fix |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1944
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
the Dev Blog wrote: First, a unique ID key. Styled as EBR-XXXX, this is the number of your bug report in our database, and the first thing you should refer to when discussing a bug report with a developer. Feel free to reference it in forum posts, tweets, and EVEmails or in discussions about the test server (Singularity/GÇ¥SisiGÇ¥) or live server (Tranquility/GÇ¥TQGÇ¥) Eh....I hate to spoil te fun, but in general talking about bug reports on this forum is prohibited as talking about the reports itself inevitably leads to talking about the bug itself..... The exceptions being if a Dev/GM specifically asks for it and threads in the Test Server Feedback section.
15. Posting about bugs and exploits is prohibited.
Bugs and exploits should be reported through the proper channels. Bugs should be brought to the attention of CCP by filing a bug report for our Quality Assurance department. More information on filing bug reports can be found here. Discussions about unverified issues in game can cause unnecessary panic in the community. When there is an issue that the EVE Online community needs to be aware of, it will be communicated via an official statement from CCP after thorough investigation. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Valterra Craven
270
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:the Dev Blog wrote: First, a unique ID key. Styled as EBR-XXXX, this is the number of your bug report in our database, and the first thing you should refer to when discussing a bug report with a developer. Feel free to reference it in forum posts, tweets, and EVEmails or in discussions about the test server (Singularity/GÇ¥SisiGÇ¥) or live server (Tranquility/GÇ¥TQGÇ¥) Eh....I hate to spoil te fun, but in general talking about bug reports on this forum is prohibited as talking about the reports itself inevitably leads to talking about the bug itself..... The exceptions being if a Dev/GM specifically asks for it and threads in the Test Server Feedback section. 15. Posting about bugs and exploits is prohibited.
Bugs and exploits should be reported through the proper channels. Bugs should be brought to the attention of CCP by filing a bug report for our Quality Assurance department. More information on filing bug reports can be found here. Discussions about unverified issues in game can cause unnecessary panic in the community. When there is an issue that the EVE Online community needs to be aware of, it will be communicated via an official statement from CCP after thorough investigation.
Technically a Dev just asked for it... so the policy has been full filled... i.e. because of the dev blog this policy is now moot... |
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Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
774
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Did a forum hall monitor just try and chest pound against the administration?
laffo |
Hesveht Esperil
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Should add a button to let people close+abandon their own bug reports, since you're evidently gonna ignore them and just let them clutter up people's ~my bug reports~ pages for all eternity, whether they get fixed or not. |
Noriko Mai
1431
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
You should ban the devs in this thread for a week or two. So they can think about it :) |
Valterra Craven
270
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Also, on report EBR-14328 I notice that the status is closed, but the new system doesn't really say why it was closed. In your dev blog it was mentioned that the status would be invisible to players, but its not really clear why this is necessary. For example, this particular issue was a graphics issue, and I'm not sure what advantage knowing the resolution of the issue would give me as a player.
Is it not possible in a future update to mark the closed status of the bug as view-able by the customer if the bug being reported ins't an exploit?
The problem with the current implementation is that with a status of closed, I as a player have no idea what I should be doing as a next step. For example you said we should reference the Features and Ideas forums if the bug is closed with a working as intended if we want to try and change the implementation of something. However, without knowing the closed status I would have no idea to even go to the forums to try and make ships not look like poo since the lighting update... (AKA the new lighting system even with max AA makes everything look horribly jagged) |
Aryndel Vyst
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
774
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Posted - 2014.08.19 18:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
There's a bug on the forums where one of my posts got deleted should I file a report through the sources mentioned in the OP? |
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CCP Explorer
C C P C C P Alliance
2315
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Posted - 2014.08.19 18:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
I hope these improvements to the bug reporting website help you in helping us improving EVE Online; I, for one, like them.
I would like to emphasize a part of the devblog that we still strongly prefer that bug reports be submitted through the in-client bug reporting tool (accessed via the Help menu). It automatically attaches things like logs and also allows you to take screenshots, annotate them, and upload them along with your report. Your submissons from the client will appear on the My Bug Reports page on the website and will be equally interactive. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @erlendur |
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Noriko Mai
1433
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Posted - 2014.08.19 18:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
A few minutes ago there were two or three posts above mine on page two. I would say it's a good start |
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
98
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Posted - 2014.08.19 18:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote: Thanks very much for telling us how you feel. Sorry that you don't think we take Sisi feedback on board, but I assure you the teams are as diligent as possible when it comes to reading the threads and discussing the ideas in them! That being said, the items in the hypothetical list would already have been acknowledged by us to be issues, so does that go some way to mitigating your concerns?
I think his concern is that those issues were acknowledged when they hit TQ, and closed in error on SiSi. Not ignored in threads, Bug Reports were raised, and closed, despite them actually being bugs.
Do you do any investigation of TQ-impacting bugs to see if they were raised on SiSi, and how they were handled? If not, it might be worthwhile: you might have some internal communication work to do, or need to change how you set targets (I can only guess, not working at CCP!). |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
648
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Posted - 2014.08.19 20:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Additionally, editing a bug once it has been attached or closed will be futile, as we will no longer be checking that report. Then why not remove the edit option/button for those reports People may not know about the futility, and think "The button option is still there, so it must serve a purpose." Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2362
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Posted - 2014.08.19 20:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nicen Jehr wrote:Why don't you have a Closed resolution, "Fixed" ?
Also, I would use a public bug tracker where I could vote on priorities. But I'd extend it to be feature requests too. And add tags, like 'little thing', this way you wouldn't have to go through the huge hassle of "post little things in thread, parse posts into machine readable format, have CSM put up a voting app", and new suggestions would be immediately votable.
Bug reports don't get "fixed" per se - they either become or are attached to defects, which are fixed, but there is no way currently to relay the state of the defect to the bug report attached to it. Going back over old bug reports to set them to fixed would be very time consuming.
When you say extend the public bug tracker idea to feature requests, do you mean that you would vote on features that we have proposed, or that you would submit features of your own? We already have a place for the latter - in case you aren't aware, it's the Features and Ideas forum.
Tags are great and also come built into Jira. Making them searchable could be good, but making them enterable might not be so good (see Marco Reus and the latest Puma twitter campaign for an example of how that doesn't always work as intended). Definitely a good idea though - thanks for your input!
EDIT: Some guests just came round with CCP Lebowski, so will be answering more posts tomorrow morning! Keep the chat going! CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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Tvashnar Crendraven
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2014.08.19 20:57:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:
Bug reports don't get "fixed" per se - they either become or are attached to defects, which are fixed, but there is no way currently to relay the state of the defect to the bug report attached to it. Going back over old bug reports to set them to fixed would be very time consuming.
No doubt. Bugs have costs, and those costs are higher if you ship them to customers.
"'Closed" does not tell me whether I should not be seeing the issue anymore; or whether my understanding is broken and it is not actually a bug or any number of other things which might make me feel that the time I spent to file the bug was not wasted.
Simply closing the issue without comment or a tag like 'fixed', 'not-repro', 'by design' or even 'raised a bug in our real bug tracking system' means that this nice new interface into our bug reports is *useless*. |
Circumstantial Evidence
134
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Posted - 2014.08.19 21:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Bug reports don't get "fixed" per se - they either become or are attached to defects, which are fixed, but there is no way currently to relay the state of the defect to the bug report attached to it. Going back over old bug reports to set them to fixed would be very time consuming. Please work on automating this :) I have bugs both attached / "I-know-fixed", and attached / "I-don't-know-anything". I would like to see a column with a one word report / state of the internally-written defect our bug is attached to.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11161
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 21:26:00 -
[33] - Quote
We need to be able to see the resolution, not just "closed". This is an improvement, but not by much. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2852
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Posted - 2014.08.19 21:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
I like the idea of being able to vote on legacy bugs. But, if you have no way of setting a bug to at status of "fixed" how will this list be populated? You will not know which bugs to include in the list as not a single one will have any indication that it has been fixed!
I would think that if a bug can be attached to a defect, then when that defect has been fixed, that information could automatically flow back to the bug report.
Also the status "closed" is just not informative enough. If something has "insufficient information", I would like to know, so I can try explaining it again. If it cannot be reproduced, I would like to try again, maybe with some other method for repro that might work for you. If its "working as intended" I would like to know so I can do a feature request in F & I. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
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CCP Habakuk
C C P C C P Alliance
973
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 21:40:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tvashnar Crendraven wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:
Bug reports don't get "fixed" per se - they either become or are attached to defects, which are fixed, but there is no way currently to relay the state of the defect to the bug report attached to it. Going back over old bug reports to set them to fixed would be very time consuming.
No doubt. Bugs have costs, and those costs are higher if you ship them to customers. "'Closed" does not tell me whether I should not be seeing the issue anymore; or whether my understanding is broken and it is not actually a bug or any number of other things which might make me feel that the time I spent to file the bug was not wasted. Simply closing the issue without comment or a tag like 'fixed', 'not-repro', 'by design' or even 'raised a bug in our real bug tracking system' means that this nice new interface into our bug reports is *useless*.
Regarding bugs in "Attached" state: Regardless on what is being shown, you will only know for sure (well in some cases not even then...) that your bug is fixed on TQ, when it will be mentioned in the patch notes (nearly all player-facing bug fixes are mentioned in the patch notes, with the exception of most exploits and some very small issues like spelling fixes). Even if we would show the internal status of the real defect on your bug report it would still cause confusion, as you do not know, when the fix will reach TQ (in some cases this will be the next day, but in some cases it can take a few months (depending in which context it is being fixed) - and no, even the internal information is not as clear.
Regarding bugs in "Closed" state: Old bug reports are unfortunately lacking any further information. I hope that In the future you will often see comments on why a bug report was closed or you will see bug reports with the status "Need more info" with details on what we need. I had a short check at our stats and most bug reports in the "Closed" state were closed because the report was somehow incomplete and the next category are bugs, which were not reproducible. Both cases should improve alot, if we are able to get further information from the reporter. We are unfortunately still not able to send you an email if we need further information, but we are getting closer. We want for sure to give you as much information as easily possible on why your bug report was closed, but we don't know yet on how this will look like exactly when everything is in place.
CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Gridlock-á Bug reporting | Mass Testing |
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CCP Habakuk
C C P C C P Alliance
973
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Posted - 2014.08.19 21:41:00 -
[36] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:... Also the status "closed" is just not informative enough. If something has "insufficient information", I would like to know, so I can try explaining it again. If it cannot be reproduced, I would like to try again, maybe with some other method for repro that might work for you. If its "working as intended" I would like to know so I can do a feature request in F & I.
I totally agree and we will be working on improving this. CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Gridlock-á Bug reporting | Mass Testing |
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Logix42
Taxation Damnation
189
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Posted - 2014.08.19 21:42:00 -
[37] - Quote
Huge thanks to CCP Tier whoever they are! Go beyond the edge of space... Explore |
Hoshi
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
36
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Posted - 2014.08.19 22:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
I made a bug report about a month ago about inconsistent use of Agility/Inertia in module descriptions. But the my bug reports page says "You have not submitted any bug reports." (and yes I have checked all account to make sure I didn't submit it on another). Does this mean that there where some error and the bug report never actually reached CCP?. Do I need to resubmit the report?
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason." |
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CCP Habakuk
C C P C C P Alliance
978
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Posted - 2014.08.19 22:23:00 -
[39] - Quote
Hoshi wrote:I made a bug report about a month ago about inconsistent use of Agility/Inertia in module descriptions. But the my bug reports page says "You have not submitted any bug reports." (and yes I have checked all account to make sure I didn't submit it on another). Does this mean that there where some error and the bug report never actually reached CCP?. Do I need to resubmit the report?
I am also not able to find a bug report about this in your given time frame. The issue itself is known and there is an open defect for it, so there is no need to file a new bug report about it. CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Gridlock-á Bug reporting | Mass Testing |
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asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services The Possum Lodge
98
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Posted - 2014.08.19 22:27:00 -
[40] - Quote
i am currently not able to submit a bug report, as it keeps saying i need to 'fill out all fields' yet gives me no options to select in the 'category' drop-down. |
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CCP Habakuk
C C P C C P Alliance
979
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Posted - 2014.08.19 23:31:00 -
[41] - Quote
asteroidjas wrote:i am currently not able to submit a bug report, as it keeps saying i need to 'fill out all fields' yet gives me no options to select in the 'category' drop-down.
Hmmm, this is from the client on Tranquility or where do you see this problem? I just tried it and for me it worked fine. It would be helpful if you could get logs from logserver (more info can be found on in the bug reporting page, which is linked in my signature) and create a bug report through the web site. CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Gridlock-á Bug reporting | Mass Testing |
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Noriko Mai
1434
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Posted - 2014.08.20 00:09:00 -
[42] - Quote
To be honnest, I stopped writing new reports because I thought no one looks into it. After a few months I could not remember what my report was about, just that I've written one. I just checked my bugreports and most of them are attechend to a defect. So someone actually looked at it and something may/will happen. It's is so satisfying. (No joke or sarcasm) *hugs* will write bugreports again. Sorry for not believing |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
106
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Posted - 2014.08.20 00:16:00 -
[43] - Quote
I submitted a bug in Dec 2013, never heard a thing about it, kinda gave up on bug reports
Looks today and find out nothing has been touched on it. Although i re submitted it on a separate pilot.
23 accounts and 41 pilots, anyway, we could make it so you can see all your bug reports in one area. i found several duplicates today as well, that i didn't even remember writing
Also, added 7 more that i had been putting off writing cause well, not getting feedback kinda leads you to believe no one knows or cares, although seeing one untouched for 9 months kinda does the same thing... |
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects
767
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Posted - 2014.08.20 00:51:00 -
[44] - Quote
Currently having to reenter my credentials to access the info pages. And no option to go back once in the page.
If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide
See you around the universe. |
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CCP Habakuk
C C P C C P Alliance
980
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Posted - 2014.08.20 00:54:00 -
[45] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:To be honnest, I stopped writing new reports because I thought no one looks into it. After a few months I could not remember what my report was about, just that I've written one. I just checked my bugreports and most of them are attechend to a defect. So someone actually looked at it and something may/will happen. It's is so satisfying. (No joke or sarcasm) *hugs* will write bugreports again. Sorry for not believing EDIT: I just checked all of them and some are fixed or never made it from SiSi to TQ.
- EBR-15230 is fixed.
- EBR-16144 is fixed.
- EBR-16465 is fixed.
- EBR-19126 is fixed.
So if I'm not mistaken or my reports are only a small part of a bigger defect, all of them can be closed.
I had a short look and it seems like all four of those got fixed because of your bug reports. Thank you!
CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Gridlock-á Bug reporting | Mass Testing |
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CCP Habakuk
C C P C C P Alliance
980
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Posted - 2014.08.20 01:17:00 -
[46] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:I submitted a bug in Dec 2013, never heard a thing about it, kinda gave up on bug reports
Looks today and find out nothing has been touched on it. Although i re submitted it on a separate pilot.
23 accounts and 41 pilots, anyway, we could make it so you can see all your bug reports in one area. i found several duplicates today as well, that i didn't even remember writing
Also, added 7 more that i had been putting off writing cause well, not getting feedback kinda leads you to believe no one knows or cares, although seeing one untouched for 9 months kinda does the same thing...
Yeah, unfortunately we were not successful in being able to process all bug reports within the last year and we did not decide to mass-close the remaining ones (which might have looked better). If you find a very old bug report not closed and you have additional info to it - or you found out that it was not a bug: Please add a comment to it. I'll try to go through bug reports which were updated and see if I can do anything with them.
Btw, some background info: The main part of the bug reports are processed by our volunteer bug hunters and smaller parts are done by us in QA and by our testing partner. Due to several reasons (including the signup being closed for a long time due to technical difficulties) we had less active bug hunters than in previous years - this had quite some impact on our ability to process bug reports. In the last few months the situation improved a lot due to several new and some very active bug hunters (Thanks go especially to BH Nonlocality) - but we could need several additional volunteers. Follow the links in the top post, if you are interested in helping as bug hunter. CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Gridlock-á Bug reporting | Mass Testing |
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Rionan Nafee
Industrie und Handels Konsortium Tribunal Alliance
384
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Posted - 2014.08.20 07:11:00 -
[47] - Quote
Thank you for your improvements and the infos about them.
One suggestion:
How would it be if the Bug Hunters/Dev Teams can "rate" the bug reports and give comments about the quality of the submitted bug reports?
So players can see how usefull their reports were and how they can improve their next ones therefore the neverending work of the Bug Hunters and Devs can be make easier. |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2364
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:12:00 -
[48] - Quote
David Laurentson wrote:CCP Goliath wrote: Thanks very much for telling us how you feel. Sorry that you don't think we take Sisi feedback on board, but I assure you the teams are as diligent as possible when it comes to reading the threads and discussing the ideas in them! That being said, the items in the hypothetical list would already have been acknowledged by us to be issues, so does that go some way to mitigating your concerns?
I think his concern is that those issues were acknowledged when they hit TQ, and closed in error on SiSi. Not ignored in threads, Bug Reports were raised, and closed, despite them actually being bugs. Do you do any investigation of TQ-impacting bugs to see if they were raised on SiSi, and how they were handled? If not, it might be worthwhile: you might have some internal communication work to do, or need to change how you set targets (I can only guess, not working at CCP!).
This might be to do with our version control then. Some bugs will be closed while still being a problem on TQ, because we have verified that the fix works on one of our test environments (Sisi is one, but there are many others)
We do perform RCA (root cause analysis) on certain escaped issues (escaped describes the defect "escaping" from the test environment into the live environment). This is usually facilitated by me, with the involved team(s), and we just go over how the defect managed to get to TQ, strictly looking at the facts and leaving any blame or recrimination out of the picture (one of the worst things you can do, especially in QA, is create an environment where failure has massive negative consequences so that people become afraid of it - that's how problems stay hidden instead of being discussed and solved). Once we know how it happened, we work out what lessons we can take from this so as to not have it happen again, and usually make sure we have a test case or two in our regression suite to cover the defect and areas around it.
Having hard targets with defects is a very double edged sword - some targets are positive, such as "no A or B class bugs on release", others are impossible and dangerous, such as "0 bugs for every feature" or "a good QA should find X bugs per day". CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2364
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Additionally, editing a bug once it has been attached or closed will be futile, as we will no longer be checking that report. Then why not remove the edit option/button for those reports People may not know about the futility, and think "The button/option is still there, so it must serve a purpose."
We likely will in the next iteration, just didn't have time before Tier went on summer vacation CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2364
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:18:00 -
[50] - Quote
Tvashnar Crendraven wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:
Bug reports don't get "fixed" per se - they either become or are attached to defects, which are fixed, but there is no way currently to relay the state of the defect to the bug report attached to it. Going back over old bug reports to set them to fixed would be very time consuming.
No doubt. Bugs have costs, and those costs are higher if you ship them to customers. "'Closed" does not tell me whether I should not be seeing the issue anymore; or whether my understanding is broken and it is not actually a bug or any number of other things which might make me feel that the time I spent to file the bug was not wasted. Simply closing the issue without comment or a tag like 'fixed', 'not-repro', 'by design' or even 'raised a bug in our real bug tracking system' means that this nice new interface into our bug reports is *useless*.
This seems to be a common sentiment, and we will discuss it internally and see if adding the resolution field (which would show you the Closed resolution, but wouldn't provide any details on fixes, for reasons I've explained in other posts) is something we can fit in to the next iteration. "Attached" means "Raised a bug in our real bug tracking system", relatively speaking. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2364
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Bug reports don't get "fixed" per se - they either become or are attached to defects, which are fixed, but there is no way currently to relay the state of the defect to the bug report attached to it. Going back over old bug reports to set them to fixed would be very time consuming. Please work on automating this :) I have bugs both attached / "I-know-fixed", and attached / "I-don't-know-anything". I would like to see a column with a one word report / state of the internally-written defect our bug is attached to.
Impossible without rewriting part of our Jira instance I believe. This isn't a desired solution as it makes plugin maintenance and ongoing support much more complex and risky. Sorry, but at least for now this isn't going to happen. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2364
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:24:00 -
[52] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I like the idea of being able to vote on legacy bugs. But, if you have no way of setting a bug to at status of "fixed" how will this list be populated? You will not know which bugs to include in the list as not a single one will have any indication that it has been fixed!
I would think that if a bug can be attached to a defect, then when that defect has been fixed, that information could automatically flow back to the bug report.
Also the status "closed" is just not informative enough. If something has "insufficient information", I would like to know, so I can try explaining it again. If it cannot be reproduced, I would like to try again, maybe with some other method for repro that might work for you. If its "working as intended" I would like to know so I can do a feature request in F & I.
The legacy bugs would be in our database, so would have resolutions, and obviously we can see when defects are fixed - the thing here is that defects are invisible to you, and what you see are called bug reports. The jargon is pretty important when discussing both at the same time to differentiate.
Unfortunately the defect tracking software doesn't work like you describe with the flow of issues, at least at this time, but it does get worked on continually by Atlassian, so who knows what the future may bring!
CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2364
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:31:00 -
[53] - Quote
Rionan Nafee wrote:Thank you for your improvements and the infos about them.
One suggestion:
How would it be if the Bug Hunters/Dev Teams can "rate" the bug reports and give comments about the quality of the submitted bug reports?
So players can see how usefull their reports were and how they can improve their next ones therefore the neverending work of the Bug Hunters and Devs can be make easier.
This is something that's come up in our meetings before. On the one hand, as you say it's great to give people positive feedback when they submit a report that leads to us fixing or discovering an issue. On the other hand, the maintenance around such a system (you'd need rules, and checks, and consistency, etc) as well as the work that would have to go into creating it, might be a little much, or the wrong effort in the wrong place... It's definitely not entirely ruled out, but right now I don't have a good idea of how it would work well either. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
23
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:44:00 -
[54] - Quote
This is great progress, been asking and wanting something like this for a long while. So glad to see it actually implemented!
I would like a bit of feedback in the general "This was closed because XYZ" or "Resolved in Hyperion build #####" etc. I don't think we need personalised responses of course, that'd be a bit too much.
EDIT: I can see why this might not be implemented anytime soon, but it would be a welcome addition. Generally when working with Jira we've merged duplicates and then used the link option to link it to duplicates. It'd just require a copy paste fix, obviously it's working out if the time would be better spent elsewhere. |
Rionan Nafee
Industrie und Handels Konsortium Tribunal Alliance
384
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Posted - 2014.08.20 16:11:00 -
[55] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Rionan Nafee wrote:Thank you for your improvements and the infos about them.
One suggestion:
How would it be if the Bug Hunters/Dev Teams can "rate" the bug reports and give comments about the quality of the submitted bug reports?
So players can see how usefull their reports were and how they can improve their next ones therefore the neverending work of the Bug Hunters and Devs can be make easier. This is something that's come up in our meetings before. On the one hand, as you say it's great to give people positive feedback when they submit a report that leads to us fixing or discovering an issue. On the other hand, the maintenance around such a system (you'd need rules, and checks, and consistency, etc) as well as the work that would have to go into creating it, might be a little much, or the wrong effort in the wrong place... It's definitely not entirely ruled out, but right now I don't have a good idea of how it would work well either. Thank you for this information.
Is there any other way possible to know if the submitted bug reports are usefull or only a pain in the ass for the bug hunters? |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2365
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Posted - 2014.08.20 16:44:00 -
[56] - Quote
Rionan Nafee wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Rionan Nafee wrote:Thank you for your improvements and the infos about them.
One suggestion:
How would it be if the Bug Hunters/Dev Teams can "rate" the bug reports and give comments about the quality of the submitted bug reports?
So players can see how usefull their reports were and how they can improve their next ones therefore the neverending work of the Bug Hunters and Devs can be make easier. This is something that's come up in our meetings before. On the one hand, as you say it's great to give people positive feedback when they submit a report that leads to us fixing or discovering an issue. On the other hand, the maintenance around such a system (you'd need rules, and checks, and consistency, etc) as well as the work that would have to go into creating it, might be a little much, or the wrong effort in the wrong place... It's definitely not entirely ruled out, but right now I don't have a good idea of how it would work well either. Thank you for this information. Is there any other way possible to know if the submitted bug reports are usefull or only a pain in the ass for the bug hunters?
At this time there definitely isn't an easy way to relay that info back to you, barring commenting "great report" or similar on the report, which will absolutely have to be left up to the individuals processing the reports (but will be encouraged) CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects
767
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Posted - 2014.08.20 16:47:00 -
[57] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Rionan Nafee wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:Rionan Nafee wrote:Thank you for your improvements and the infos about them.
One suggestion:
How would it be if the Bug Hunters/Dev Teams can "rate" the bug reports and give comments about the quality of the submitted bug reports?
So players can see how usefull their reports were and how they can improve their next ones therefore the neverending work of the Bug Hunters and Devs can be make easier. This is something that's come up in our meetings before. On the one hand, as you say it's great to give people positive feedback when they submit a report that leads to us fixing or discovering an issue. On the other hand, the maintenance around such a system (you'd need rules, and checks, and consistency, etc) as well as the work that would have to go into creating it, might be a little much, or the wrong effort in the wrong place... It's definitely not entirely ruled out, but right now I don't have a good idea of how it would work well either. Thank you for this information. Is there any other way possible to know if the submitted bug reports are usefull or only a pain in the ass for the bug hunters? At this time there definitely isn't an easy way to relay that info back to you, barring commenting "great report" or similar on the report, which will absolutely have to be left up to the individuals processing the reports (but will be encouraged)
Even showing how many comments have been attached to the reports would be enough to show that the items is getting worked on. Having that number in the main bugreport list would save the bandwitdh required for people to check their bug reports for comments.
If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide
See you around the universe. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
763
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 18:55:00 -
[58] - Quote
http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66330/1/bugreportpic1.png
Confirming that TEST has won Eve. Either that, or TEST is a bug and should be... corrected. You decide.
Also, cool stuff. Knowing where you're bur report is in the system is a good thing. People like feedback and knowing that they have been heard. GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥ -Grath Telkin, 2014.
Free PASTA! |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
107
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Posted - 2014.08.22 02:31:00 -
[59] - Quote
well, I got my bug report "Attached" but attached to what? EBR-22458 What is going to get done?
The bug report is kinda one of those it used to be this way, now it is that way...
Attached doesn't tell me if the old way is correct or the new way is correct.....
How the heck am i supposed to know whether to shut up and wait 6 years for it to revert to the old way or 4 years for it to be fixed the new way?
At this rate, going back to old style forum whining is still the best answer...... |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2367
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Posted - 2014.08.22 09:50:00 -
[60] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:well, I got my bug report "Attached" but attached to what? EBR-22458 What is going to get done?
The bug report is kinda one of those it used to be this way, now it is that way...
Attached doesn't tell me if the old way is correct or the new way is correct.....
How the heck am i supposed to know whether to shut up and wait 6 years for it to revert to the old way or 4 years for it to be fixed the new way?
At this rate, going back to old style forum whining is still the best answer......
Attached means that it has either had a defect created from it, or attached to an existing defect we already had. This is basically the best outcome of a bug report. As I've explained further up the thread, there is no way for us to currently relay the status of defects that bug reports are attached to, to you. In the case of this issue, you filed it on the 19th August, we processed it on the 21st and CCP Claymore made a defect from it. That defect is now assigned to a developer and waiting to be fixed (note, I do not know the nature of the intended fix). If the report was invalid, it would show as Closed rather than Attached. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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Nicen Jehr
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
399
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Posted - 2014.08.25 00:24:00 -
[61] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:When you say extend the public bug tracker idea to feature requests, do you mean that you would vote on features that we have proposed, or that you would submit features of your own? We already have a place for the latter - in case you aren't aware, it's the Features and Ideas forum. I'm proposing automating both. Right now, to get an idea to CCP karkur and CCP Punkturis they have to read the Little Things thread and notice the post and presumably make a note in your internal to-do list tracking.
I propose instead a features and suggestions app where pilots use SSO to prove identity and can post specific ideas. If you want to keep discussion on the forums then you could programatically make a features and suggestions thread for each post. But the goal is for me to post 100 little things, and have other pilots upvote the 10 most desired ideas, so your devs don't have to sort through the less-desired 90. Little Things to improve GëíGïüGëí-á| My Little Things posts |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2368
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Posted - 2014.08.25 10:19:00 -
[62] - Quote
Nicen Jehr wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:When you say extend the public bug tracker idea to feature requests, do you mean that you would vote on features that we have proposed, or that you would submit features of your own? We already have a place for the latter - in case you aren't aware, it's the Features and Ideas forum. I'm proposing automating both. Right now, to get an idea to CCP karkur and CCP Punkturis they have to read the Little Things thread and notice the post and presumably make a note in your internal to-do list tracking. I propose instead a features and suggestions app where pilots use SSO to prove identity and can post specific ideas. If you want to keep discussion on the forums then you could programatically make a features and suggestions thread for each post. But the goal is for me to post 100 little things, and have other pilots upvote the 10 most desired ideas, so your devs don't have to sort through the less-desired 90.
It's an interesting notion for sure. Out of my remit, but will definitely pass it on to others. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2368
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Posted - 2014.08.25 12:28:00 -
[63] - Quote
Nicen Jehr wrote:CCP Goliath wrote:When you say extend the public bug tracker idea to feature requests, do you mean that you would vote on features that we have proposed, or that you would submit features of your own? We already have a place for the latter - in case you aren't aware, it's the Features and Ideas forum. I'm proposing automating both. Right now, to get an idea to CCP karkur and CCP Punkturis they have to read the Little Things thread and notice the post and presumably make a note in your internal to-do list tracking. I propose instead a features and suggestions app where pilots use SSO to prove identity and can post specific ideas. If you want to keep discussion on the forums then you could programatically make a features and suggestions thread for each post. But the goal is for me to post 100 little things, and have other pilots upvote the 10 most desired ideas, so your devs don't have to sort through the less-desired 90.
Sorry for the double post, but I just found this: https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/things/
Seems like the CSM are using something similar to what you describe to collate these things. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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Nicen Jehr
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
399
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Posted - 2014.08.25 21:06:00 -
[64] - Quote
CCP Goliath wrote:Sorry for the double post, but I just found this: https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/things/Seems like the CSM are using something similar to what you describe to collate these things. Thanks Goliath and fuzzysteve, good find :)
Little Things to improve GëíGïüGëí-á| My Little Things posts |
Noriko Mai
1438
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Posted - 2014.08.25 22:22:00 -
[65] - Quote
CCP Habakuk wrote:Noriko Mai wrote:To be honnest, I stopped writing new reports because I thought no one looks into it. After a few months I could not remember what my report was about, just that I've written one. I just checked my bugreports and most of them are attechend to a defect. So someone actually looked at it and something may/will happen. It's is so satisfying. (No joke or sarcasm) *hugs* will write bugreports again. Sorry for not believing EDIT: I just checked all of them and some are fixed or never made it from SiSi to TQ.
- EBR-15230 is fixed.
- EBR-16144 is fixed.
- EBR-16465 is fixed.
- EBR-19126 is fixed.
So if I'm not mistaken or my reports are only a small part of a bigger defect, all of them can be closed. I had a short look and it seems like all four of those got fixed because of your bug reports. Thank you! This bugs are still shown as "Attached" and not "Closed". Should I add a comment that they can be closed? I still don't really understand what happens when I add a comment after the bug was atteched to a defect. Will it pop up in some queue again? |
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects
770
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 22:34:00 -
[66] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:CCP Habakuk wrote:Noriko Mai wrote:To be honnest, I stopped writing new reports because I thought no one looks into it. After a few months I could not remember what my report was about, just that I've written one. I just checked my bugreports and most of them are attechend to a defect. So someone actually looked at it and something may/will happen. It's is so satisfying. (No joke or sarcasm) *hugs* will write bugreports again. Sorry for not believing EDIT: I just checked all of them and some are fixed or never made it from SiSi to TQ.
- EBR-15230 is fixed.
- EBR-16144 is fixed.
- EBR-16465 is fixed.
- EBR-19126 is fixed.
So if I'm not mistaken or my reports are only a small part of a bigger defect, all of them can be closed. I had a short look and it seems like all four of those got fixed because of your bug reports. Thank you! This bugs are still shown as "Attached" and not "Closed". Should I add a comment that they can be closed? I still don't really understand what happens when I add a comment after the bug was atteched to a defect. Will it pop up in some queue again? There is no way to show attached and fixed. Attached is the only way it shows up now. If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide
See you around the universe. |
Kusum Fawn
State Protectorate Caldari State
521
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Posted - 2014.08.29 05:40:00 -
[67] - Quote
Im not really sure how i want to respond to that. I could link the many pages where youve fallen down on the job, and be angry about that. I could also write about how Sisi feedback is routinely ignored/dismissed which is a distinction of sorts and post examples of each, though specific examples of "ignored" is harder to track.
But really having a known issues list which is updated regularly with sections for "This is not fixed yet" and "This is fixed" would go a long way to reducing the number of similar bug reports of varying detail that you receive and allow you to focus closer on the repeating issue(s) that people are still seeing. Allowing us (the players) to indicate on someone else's bug report that we are also observing the same issue will allow you to see the most common issues faster.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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CCP Goliath
C C P C C P Alliance
2373
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Posted - 2014.08.29 14:57:00 -
[68] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote: But really having a known issues list which is updated regularly with sections for "This is not fixed yet" and "This is fixed" would go a long way to reducing the number of similar bug reports of varying detail that you receive and allow you to focus closer on the repeating issue(s) that people are still seeing. Allowing us (the players) to indicate on someone else's bug report that we are also observing the same issue will allow you to see the most common issues faster.
Yeah! I would really hope that one of the outcomes of such a system would be a reduction in redundancy, replaced with a "me too" button or similar. You're entirely correct of course that it would allow us to process more issues, and focus directly on other more difficult issues. CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath |
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Kusum Fawn
State Protectorate Caldari State
522
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Posted - 2014.08.29 20:00:00 -
[69] - Quote
Im having a hard time describing the problem that i tend to have around new releases, There are tons of little behavior changes that dont get properly documented and so i cant tell if they are intended or simply some side effect of some other change. I could bug report these behavior changes but since it isnt "technically broken" When i do talk about them, somehow they are seen as either feature requests or are functionality that is completely unknown to the GM or dev in question that they simply dont answer it.
Just as an example of things that could be a bug, or intended feature but is an undocumented (as far as i can tell) behavior change :
Preview window executes an uninterruptible animated turn when viewing items. additionally it now seems to have a maximum window size (where previously it did not) and for prosthetic apparel items with large amounts of text as description it obscures the hand part of the item. this is because the preview window is centered on the center of the character model and not the item itself as is true in almost all other items Mens outerwear items are also off centered
Is this a feature? is this a bug? is this a bad design choice? should i bug report these window behaviors?
This is as far as i can tell a bug : An open Preview window cannot switch from a ship to a clothing item. 'Preview a ship any ship. select market Preview any clothing item
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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