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Charax Bouclier
Emerald Drama Theatrics
4
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
As a budding miner/industrialist (for now), I am kinda surprised when I see people dump goods on a market that is clearly below the market value of the component parts.
I understand my cost structure may be higher than others, but it still seems that certain goods are being sold below cost.
Why is this a thing? Are people just stupid? Are they hoping to drive out other players from certain markets and then raise prices? Is it just trying to dump finished goods since they haven't had luck selling it against marginal price discounters? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20219
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:As a budding miner/industrialist (for now), I am kinda surprised when I see people dump goods on a market that is clearly below the market value of the component parts.
I understand my cost structure may be higher than others, but it still seems that certain goods are being sold below cost.
Why is this a thing? Are people just stupid? Are they hoping to drive out other players from certain markets and then raise prices? Is it just trying to dump finished goods since they haven't had luck selling it against marginal price discounters? I've underlined the main reason, for some bizarre reason some people think that the minerals they mine are free, they fail to take into account the market value of those minerals, or the opportunity cost of gathering them.
Excellent question by the way.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
Charax Bouclier
Emerald Drama Theatrics
4
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Posted - 2014.08.19 18:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Charax Bouclier wrote:As a budding miner/industrialist (for now), I am kinda surprised when I see people dump goods on a market that is clearly below the market value of the component parts.
I understand my cost structure may be higher than others, but it still seems that certain goods are being sold below cost.
Why is this a thing? Are people just stupid? Are they hoping to drive out other players from certain markets and then raise prices? Is it just trying to dump finished goods since they haven't had luck selling it against marginal price discounters? I've underlined the main reason, for some bizarre reason some people think that the minerals they mine are free, they fail to take into account the market value of those minerals, or the opportunity cost of gathering them. Excellent question by the way.
Heh... well... it's encouraged me to look at industry closer and learn about "research" and how to reduce my production costs. Once I think I kinda get something, I scratch a bit more and discover yet another layer.
Having lots of fun with this and thanks for the reply. :) |
Paranoid Loyd
1479
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Posted - 2014.08.19 18:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Recent changes to industry made the build cost for items higher, you could also be seeing the remaining stock being sold off below what it costs now but above what it originally cost to build. "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20221
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Posted - 2014.08.19 18:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Recent changes to industry made the build cost for items higher, you could also be seeing the remaining stock being sold off below what it costs now but above what it originally cost to build. There is that too, didn't even consider the industry changes when I posted.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
135
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Posted - 2014.08.19 19:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Also dont forget about research levels, every level of material efficiency reduces your costs further, and they could be buying their ore using buy orders not from sell orders which can shave another few mil off as well.
Then you have teams to consider and where they build or such its really hard to determine what cost is now post crius because there are so many factors in play. Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
586
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Posted - 2014.08.19 19:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Recent changes to industry made the build cost for items higher, you could also be seeing the remaining stock being sold off below what it costs now but above what it originally cost to build.
that is one of the big ones. heck it used to cost under 50mil to make some of the battleships. I think I was buying/selling geddons and domis around 49mil at the low point, and ravens for 80 something mil. It got to the point where you could buy ships off the market, buy insurance, self destruct, and make money. That is when CCP started nerfing loot drops, and changed insurance to be more flexible with the market. and then with tiericide they added extra mats to most ships to bring up build cost so all ships of the same class were similarly priced.
there is also the possibility they killed someone and got the items in loot, or stole the stuff and would rather have isk than stuff. I would assume this is a far smaller percentage.
and there is always the possibility they made it when it was profitable to make but now just want to dump stock and move on to something else.
and always the "minerals I mine are free" crowd. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5834
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Posted - 2014.08.19 21:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Honestly, who cares why they do it.
All you need to know, op, is to buy up anything that is below build cost and sit on it until you have the skills to reprocess it efficiently. Or just flip it for instant profit.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Charax Bouclier
Emerald Drama Theatrics
4
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Posted - 2014.08.19 22:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:Also dont forget about research levels, every level of material efficiency reduces your costs further, and they could be buying their ore using buy orders not from sell orders which can shave another few mil off as well.
Then you have teams to consider and where they build or such its really hard to determine what cost is now post crius because there are so many factors in play.
Yeah, after I made this thread, I was looking up all the ways I can cut costs (researching mat efficiency for my blueprints, transaction/broker/accounting cost reduction, learning about where to manufacture etc). Phew. This is an interesting kind of PvP - trying to win on the markets.
Quote:Honestly, who cares why they do it.
All you need to know, op, is to buy up anything that is below build cost and sit on it until you have the skills to reprocess it efficiently. Or just flip it for instant profit.
Mr Epeen Cool
True, but as a new player, I want to make sure I'm not missing an obvious factor that is making me uncompetitive.
I have bought out some things and relisted, but others bear a huge risk due to the sheer volume of underpriced goods that are being dumped in certain markets. Gotta build up my bank before I get too aggressive with this.
BTW everyone - really do appreciate all of your input on the various threads I toss up. It's a pretty great community you have here. :) |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3432
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Posted - 2014.08.19 23:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
As someone that is currently selling one particular item below build cost, it is because I expect that particular item to trend down even further in the short term, and want to cut my losses on it.
I paid 1300m for my stock and sold a billion of it at about cost. For the last 300m worth, I could demand 360m and never get it, or I could accept 210m, learn from the error I made, and avoid that market until its margins justify its volatility in the future.
The most common reason small-scale producers build at a loss is the 'Minerals I Mine Are Free' syndrome. The most common reasons for medium-scale producers to do so are twofold - either producing for immediate local use (e.g. I just built 25 of a specific ~10m item to use as precursors to build something more expensive, these 25 items would have been cheaper to just buy but would not have been in the right place), or production that incorrectly anticipates future trends.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=366607 - Gank incursion runners, win prizes! August 26-Sept 30. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
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erg cz
Sliperer
107
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Posted - 2014.08.20 08:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
[quote=Jonah Gravenstein I've underlined the main reason, for some bizarre reason some people think that the minerals they mine are free [/quote]
Your underlined reason for your bizzare reason misses the whole reason of free minerals paradigm - they are mined AFK. The reason I am posting here is just an explanation of your reasons, I do not sell under price and I do not mine AFK myself.
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Areen Sassel
24
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Your underlined reason for your bizzare reason misses the whole reason of free minerals paradigm - they are mined AFK.
Whether they're mined AFK, mined at-keyboard, or dropped from heaven, they're still not free, because they could then be sold directly and so there's an opportunity cost for not doing so.
I suspect (to the OP) it's slightly self-perpetuating. Another reason to sell something at or below cost is that there's no prospect of selling it at any better price. Once you've made it, it doesn't matter what it cost to make, only what you can get for it.
Also, I manufacture and sell some items cheaply because I generate minerals by reprocessing items that are too cheap to be worth selling, and also generate (by exploration) blueprints that would be too fiddly to sell via contracting. Manufacturing with the minerals is not the most efficient way to make money from them, but doing so lets me monetise the blueprints and more than recoup my losses on not just selling the minerals. |
Marc Durant
97
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:Are people just stupid?
Yes, lazy and stupid. Too dumb to come up with or accept basic logic in regards to opportunity cost, dumb enough to stick to what they're doing even if it's explained to them in a "well, I do what I want /special snowflake" kind of way. They're also too lazy to read guides, forums, youtubes and ask others in game.
People on planet earth are dumb as fck and this is the one MMO that allows you to take advantage of that in so many different ways. Might as well do it.
Yes, yes-áI am. Thanks for noticing.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20243
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote: I've underlined the main reason, for some bizarre reason some people think that the minerals they mine are free
Your underlined reason for your bizzare reason misses the whole reason of free minerals paradigm - they are mined AFK. The reason I am posting here is just an explanation of your reasons, I do not sell under price and I do not mine AFK myself. Regardless of whether or not they're mined AFK those minerals still have an ISK value, they are not free.
AFK mining is bad for miners, manufacturers and market entrepreneurs alike. "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."-á - Abrazzar
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
298
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
On some items such as T2 ships you have null sec cartels and t2 BPO owners undercutting you as I unfortunately found out back in the day when I did some T2 inventing and building for my alliance. Only ships that were barely making a profit were EOS and some other ships that had high prices because no one was making those 8and for a good reason I might add). Had my alliance actually owned a tech/dyspro moon we would had made huge profit from the margins alone and I highly doubt the situation has changed that much over the years. |
Deck Cadelanne
Exigent Circumstances CAStabouts
19
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Posted - 2014.08.20 11:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:As a budding miner/industrialist (for now), I am kinda surprised when I see people dump goods on a market that is clearly below the market value of the component parts.
I understand my cost structure may be higher than others, but it still seems that certain goods are being sold below cost.
Why is this a thing? Are people just stupid? Are they hoping to drive out other players from certain markets and then raise prices? Is it just trying to dump finished goods since they haven't had luck selling it against marginal price discounters?
1. You don't know what their cost base was. Maybe it was very low or even zero.
2. Maybe they are deliberately trying to drive the market price downwards.
3. Maybe it's a combination of 1 and 2 above (e.g. steal a large quantity from a supplier then dump it on the market well below that supplier's asking price)
Or they may in fact just be dumb.
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Quinn Hatfield
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2014.08.20 11:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Deck Cadelanne wrote:Charax Bouclier wrote:As a budding miner/industrialist (for now), I am kinda surprised when I see people dump goods on a market that is clearly below the market value of the component parts.
I understand my cost structure may be higher than others, but it still seems that certain goods are being sold below cost.
Why is this a thing? Are people just stupid? Are they hoping to drive out other players from certain markets and then raise prices? Is it just trying to dump finished goods since they haven't had luck selling it against marginal price discounters? 1. You don't know what their cost base was. Maybe it was very low or even zero. 2. Maybe they are deliberately trying to drive the market price downwards. 3. Maybe it's a combination of 1 and 2 above (e.g. steal a large quantity from a supplier then dump it on the market well below that supplier's asking price) Or they may in fact just be dumb. Dumb is a firm favourite.
Hanlon's razor wrote:Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. |
Deck Cadelanne
Exigent Circumstances CAStabouts
19
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Posted - 2014.08.20 11:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hanlon's razor wrote:Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
True, dat :-)
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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3446
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 12:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Remember, folks. The "minerals I mine are free' people are idiots. But they are useful idiots. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=366607 - Gank incursion runners, win prizes! August 26-Sept 30. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2499
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 12:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Marc Durant wrote:Charax Bouclier wrote:Are people just stupid? Yes, lazy and stupid. Too dumb to come up with or accept basic logic in regards to opportunity cost, dumb enough to stick to what they're doing even if it's explained to them in a "well, I do what I want /special snowflake" kind of way.
Had several of those guys in a former alliance.
They were bad enough to tell me what they were making ... profits galore. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
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Charax Bouclier
Emerald Drama Theatrics
5
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Posted - 2014.08.20 12:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Quote:On some items such as T2 ships you have null sec cartels and t2 BPO owners undercutting you as I unfortunately found out back in the day when I did some T2 inventing and building for my alliance.
Speaking of T2 BPO, I was reading about these things and understand that early in the game, there was some sort of lottery and these were distributed out to players. Since that time, they implemented invention where the rest of us can make limited run versions (though, this costs time and money).
As a new player, I just don't get WHY T2 BPOs are even in the game years later. It seems like a broken mechanic that also acts as a discouragement to newer players (e.g., why join a game where veteran players have a protected advantage?)
I'm probably opening a can of worms (MmMmmM...worms!!) but is one peculiarity that just plain doesn't make sense at all to me to maintain. |
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
301
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 13:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thaye remained because each new t2 item that has come after those initial T2 BPO's in the lottery have to be invented and also because CCP hasn't found a fair way of reimbursing for those prints.
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Jori McKie
Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire
138
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 13:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:Quote:On some items such as T2 ships you have null sec cartels and t2 BPO owners undercutting you as I unfortunately found out back in the day when I did some T2 inventing and building for my alliance. Speaking of T2 BPO, I was reading about these things and understand that early in the game, there was some sort of lottery and these were distributed out to players. Since that time, they implemented invention where the rest of us can make limited run versions (though, this costs time and money). As a new player, I just don't get WHY T2 BPOs are even in the game years later. It seems like a broken mechanic that also acts as a discouragement to newer players (e.g., why join a game where veteran players have a protected advantage?) I'm probably opening a can of worms (MmMmmM...worms!!) but is one peculiarity that just plain doesn't make sense at all to me to maintain.
Nope, not really after the last expansion, or was it the one before. Anyway right now T2 BPOs aren't "worth" what they were before, some ship T2 BPOs are still good but most are "nerfed". You have to read the Industrie devblog for more details, i'm not sure but T2 BPOs have a way longer TE than before and you can't pump out stuff like crazy anymore.
The good thing about you Instrudy guys are, traders like me do not care :), it is all about the margin. "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." --áAbrazzar |
Areen Sassel
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 13:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Charax Bouclier wrote:As a new player, I just don't get WHY T2 BPOs are even in the game years later. It seems like a broken mechanic that also acts as a discouragement to newer players (e.g., why join a game where veteran players have a protected advantage?)
The most recent release significantly decreased the relative advantage of T2 BPOs, so it's much less of a problem than it used to be. |
Marc Durant
98
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 13:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Areen Sassel wrote:Charax Bouclier wrote:As a new player, I just don't get WHY T2 BPOs are even in the game years later. It seems like a broken mechanic that also acts as a discouragement to newer players (e.g., why join a game where veteran players have a protected advantage?) The most recent release significantly decreased the relative advantage of T2 BPOs, so it's much less of a problem than it used to be.
There is no advantage, not really, because compared to BPC invention it's terribly slow. On a per job basis it's better but on the whole it it's not even worth noticing and given the hilarious investment (I doubt many/any of the T2 BPO are still owned by the original owner) they're now more a collector's item than anything else.
This whole debate is nothing other than "they have something I can't have, this is not fair because every other MMO I played so far has taught me that I'm special and the saviour or worlds, so I should have it as well or no one should have it". Not unlike the whole high sec carrier or ancient tournament prizes whines. Yes, yes-áI am. Thanks for noticing.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5844
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Posted - 2014.08.20 15:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
I'll take the contrary view as it needs to be said.
Most of the people posting in here seem to be of the opinion that EVE is a game who's sole purpose is to maximize wealth. All this talk of opportunity costs and maximizing returns is fine but doesn't reflect the majority of below market selling.
Most of it is people find a lot of crap in their travels and occasionally they dump it on the market because that's less of a hassle than moving it all to a new system. (Another foreign concept to many. Actually moving out of the system they are in) There are so many reasons to dump stuff under priced on to the market that don't include being stupid.
After a while people have so much ISK that they simply can't be arsed to niggle over nothing. It's more of an opportunity cost to play a market game with a hanger full of low quality crap than it would be to to just dump it and not have to think about it again. They just want to wash their hands of it and get back to doing things that make substantial ISKies.
It's a sandbox in which you can do what you want. Yet all I see is people judging others for doing exactly that.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Areen Sassel
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 16:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:After a while people have so much ISK that they simply can't be arsed to niggle over nothing. It's more of an opportunity cost to play a market game with a hanger full of low quality crap than it would be to to just dump it and not have to think about it again. They just want to wash their hands of it and get back to doing things that make substantial ISKies.
That's very true, and it's true even if I'm trying to maximise ISK - I reprocess junk because it's not worth the time it would take to sell it, let alone the order slots (and additional think time) I'd need to sell it at anything other than the highest buy offer. Turning it into a few stacks of minerals makes the quantity manageable. |
Charax Bouclier
Emerald Drama Theatrics
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 16:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Quote:This whole debate is nothing other than "they have something I can't have, this is not fair because every other MMO I played so far has taught me that I'm special and the saviour or worlds, so I should have it as well or no one should have it". Not unlike the whole high sec carrier or ancient tournament prizes whines.
Grandfathered advantages simply is not a good concept if you're trying to perpetually attract new players.
I'm 2-3 weeks in and non-eve people ask me if they will always be disadvantaged against vets. I explain how the skill system works and that you will eventually catch up to an old vet for your chosen interest/specialty. I just found it odd to see a grandfathered advantage, thus the question.
Though from what everyone is saying, it's not a big deal anymore. |
Velicitia
Arma Artificer
2500
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 16:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I'll take the contrary view as it needs to be said. Most of the people posting in here seem to be of the opinion that EVE is a game who's sole purpose is to maximize wealth. All this talk of opportunity costs and maximizing returns is fine but doesn't reflect the majority of below market selling. Most of it is people find a lot of crap in their travels and occasionally they dump it on the market because that's less of a hassle than moving it all to a new system. (Another foreign concept to many. Actually moving out of the system they are in) There are so many reasons to dump stuff under priced on to the market that don't include being stupid. After a while people have so much ISK that they simply can't be arsed to niggle over nothing. It's more of an opportunity cost to play a market game with a hanger full of low quality crap than it would be to to just dump it and not have to think about it again. They just want to wash their hands of it and get back to doing things that make substantial ISKies. It's a sandbox in which you can do what you want. Yet all I see is people judging others for doing exactly that. Mr Epeen
Well, there's a balance somewhere in the middle between the two camps ... I think the biggest problem that the "minerals I mine are free" crowd causes "the rest of us" is that they perceive themselves to be industry / market barons and when you point out they could've done better for their wallets by selling something outright, they just end up with "lalalalala I'm not listening!!!"
case in point, flew with some guy doing the "free minerals" thing, and selling shuttles (or equally low-end item that needed few if any minerals off the market). We got into the discussion about it (he was selling at ~85% mineral value, not counting mfg costs or taxes, IIRC), wherein I'd buy the mins at 90% local hub rate via contract/trade and eat the 10k contract cost (he said no -- if he wanted to sell mins, he'd just do that, or some other silly argument).
So, I find out when he's taking the item(s) to market, watch it for his order to go up, buy it out. Reprocessed the stuff, and inject the mins into my piles.
Few weeks go by, and he's gloating to some newbie in the corp about how awesome his isk-making skills are (and why that newbie should consider mined minerals to be free). I simply thank him for the 15% discount on minerals, and after a few minutes of disbelief on his part, I rattle off about 3 weeks of market transactions, times, amounts, and the buyer name...
Guy raged a bit at that ... One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Charax Bouclier
Emerald Drama Theatrics
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 17:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I'll take the contrary view as it needs to be said. Most of the people posting in here seem to be of the opinion that EVE is a game who's sole purpose is to maximize wealth. All this talk of opportunity costs and maximizing returns is fine but doesn't reflect the majority of below market selling. Most of it is people find a lot of crap in their travels and occasionally they dump it on the market because that's less of a hassle than moving it all to a new system. (Another foreign concept to many. Actually moving out of the system they are in) There are so many reasons to dump stuff under priced on to the market that don't include being stupid. After a while people have so much ISK that they simply can't be arsed to niggle over nothing. It's more of an opportunity cost to play a market game with a hanger full of low quality crap than it would be to to just dump it and not have to think about it again. They just want to wash their hands of it and get back to doing things that make substantial ISKies. It's a sandbox in which you can do what you want. Yet all I see is people judging others for doing exactly that. Mr Epeen
So, in my example, I was selling Hobgoblin I's for a premium of 5400 ISK. Then someone dumps 1000 units at 4100. Then it gets undercut, and undercut again with high volume (around 3800 ISK).
At any rate, it encouraged me to investigate how to cut my costs and expand my product offering, while stockpiling wares with deflated market prices for a better day.
I think I should talk to my local government official about imposing tarriffs against these foreign importers who no doubt produce these things with poor quality control and negligent environmental practices. |
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