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Shadowblayde
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.21 09:32:00 -
[1]
Note: I would ask the forum moderator not to move this to the crime and punishment forum please. This thread is for those Eve pilots who would like to express their thoughts and is not meant to be a discussion on the mechanics of being a pilot in Eve.
There has ben a lot of discussion lately on crime. Specifically ore theft. I'd like to take a wider view and discuss exactly what constitutes crime in Eve and the effectiveness of law.
Topics for discussion:
Is it a crime to take items from cans if the owner is not there ? Is the can classed as abandoned ?
If you destroy somebody's ship then they cannot inflict any more harm on you. If you then pod them, is this a crime ?
Does it matter whether you are in high sec, low sec, or 0.0 space ?
Pirating. Everyone agrees that this is a crime. Yet, is it a crime to not intervene when someone else is being attacked by pirates ? Does it matter if the victim is a member of your corp or alliance ?
If you are in high sec space, Concord would intervene. But in low sec or 0.0 space, there is no Concord. Would you say then that every pilot is responsible not only for themselves but for all other pilots ?
I do not know anything about smuggling or illegal goods so input regarding this activity would be welcome.
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Bruja Ry
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.21 11:12:00 -
[2]
On the topic of is it a crime to steal ore: Myself, I stay in high-sec right now, and I am a miner. My views on ore thiefs is that if the miner is stupid enough to leave his ore in a unsecured can, then he deserves to loss the ore.
æLook to thyself, Take care of thyself, For nobody cares for thee.Æ |
Rojar Parit
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.21 11:22:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Shadowblayde
Note: I would ask the forum moderator not to move this to the crime and punishment forum please. This thread is for those Eve pilots who would like to express their thoughts and is not meant to be a discussion on the mechanics of being a pilot in Eve.
There has ben a lot of discussion lately on crime. Specifically ore theft. I'd like to take a wider view and discuss exactly what constitutes crime in Eve and the effectiveness of law.
Topics for discussion:
Is it a crime to take items from cans if the owner is not there ?
YES for concord.
Is the can classed as abandoned ?
NO
If you destroy somebody's ship then they cannot inflict any more harm on you. If you then pod them, is this a crime ?
Concord thinks it is.
Does it matter whether you are in high sec, low sec, or 0.0 space ?
As above doesnt matter to me but to Concord it sure does. All depends on the type of pilot you are and the reputation you want to have.
Pirating. Everyone agrees that this is a crime. Yet, is it a crime to not intervene when someone else is being attacked by pirates ?
again see above
Does it matter if the victim is a member of your corp or alliance ?
If you want to keep flying with them YES.
If you are in high sec space, Concord would intervene. But in low sec or 0.0 space, there is no Concord. Would you say then that every pilot is responsible not only for themselves but for all other pilots ?
NO definately not. It all comes down to how you as a pilot want to be seen by the community. If you want to be a good helpful pilot then by all means do it. If you are a dirty little son of a gun...then be yourself
I do not know anything about smuggling or illegal goods so input regarding this activity would be welcome.
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Shemar
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.21 12:28:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Shemar on 21/07/2006 12:28:58
Any act of unprovoked aggression and any act that results in taking possession of property belonging to someone else is a crime, regardless of location or possibility of retaliation by the victim or law enforcement.
It is a crime to take ore or loot from cans that belong to somebody else, not if the owner has abandoned them. Not being in the area does not constitute abandoning them though.
It is a crime to fire first on a ship. It is not a crime, in my view, to destroy the pod of someone that attacked you (although according to CONCORD it is) or you are at war with.
For me it is quite simple. I never fire first on others, I never steal their stuff. Anyone who steals from me or fires on me (or any member of my alliance), automatically and permanently gives me the right to aggress against them any time and in any way I choose.
________________
Enhanced eye sight does not make up for the lack of vision |
Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.21 12:39:00 -
[5]
Weren't you going to turn in your pod license and become a farmer? Really now, you screwed up and have paid the price for it. The only reason there is "a lot" of discussion of ore theft is because you can't seem to go 24 hours without making a new thread.
Move on with your life already.
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Shadowblayde
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.21 12:53:00 -
[6]
I'm not trying to excuse what I did.
This is not about me and not about ore theft in particular.
I'm trying to understand the issues surrounding criminality and the justice system.
There are several things I don't understand:
1) If you attack someone unprovoked in 0.1 to 1.0 space, you have comitted a crime and Concord will blow you up ?
2) If you steal from cans then Concord ignores you. Is Concord a system to keep law and order ? No. What does Concord actually do ?
3) What is the agression countdown really for ? So that you can take revenge on those that attack you or steal from you ? Who controls this ? Concord ?
Please stick to the topic and don't let this degenerate into flaming.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.21 12:57:00 -
[7]
You are confusing several levels of law and morality here.
First, there is morality, what is right and what is wrong.
Second, there are laws, that try to reflec the morality (or not).
Third, there is the enforcement of those laws.
In an ideal case, these are in harmony. In reality, not so much.
On first level, theft is wrong - according to most sane people in space. On second level, it is against the law in most states. On third level, it does not lead to direct retaliation from CONCORD or nation states, but you do get officially "flagged" to the victim, allowing them to enforce it themselves, even in highest security.
Peace in a pod - Liberty Network
Gradient is hiring
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Shadowblayde
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.21 13:13:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
...you do get officially "flagged" to the victim, allowing them to enforce it themselves, even in highest security.
And if the victim cannot enforce it him or herself ?
And why only 15 minutes ?
I ask again "who controls the agression timer ?"
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.21 13:17:00 -
[9]
CONCORD does, via international treaties.
The time period is shortish, I agree.
Peace in a pod - Liberty Network
Gradient is hiring
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Maxell Snow
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.21 13:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shadowblayde
And if the victim cannot enforce it him or herself ?
And why only 15 minutes ?
I ask again "who controls the agression timer ?"
Do you really think that just because someone cannot protect themselves from thieves or pirates, that it is justification for their attackers' actions? You will fit it nicely in the galaxy...
It is better to be at the right hand of the Devil than to find yourself in its path |
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Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.07.21 14:51:00 -
[11]
The flag applies to your corporation as well, though. If you are mining only for yourself, you share neither the profit nor the risk. You can keep all the proceeds from your efforts, but when a pirate wrongs you, you have to face him by yourself.
Concord and the law are in place to enforce certain rules of engagement, not to dictate ethics. There is no "spirit of the law", and as powerful as Concord's ships and weapons are, they are never brought to bear against those pod pilots who operate within the boundaries set by galactic legislation.
The most powerful defense available to you is to have friends along. It'll cut into your profits to have a combat pilot outfitting his escort ship with your mining proceeds, but it'll increase your safety. It's a business decision. If you think you've chosen the path that will bring you the greatest gain, then keep it up, and don't complain that the world isn't perfect. If you think a change in your methods would lead to a boost in your profits, there's nothing holding you back.
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Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.07.21 16:31:00 -
[12]
Its diffrent in diffrent places. For example, if someone is leaving cans after killing local non-pod pirates, its better to pick them. If You pick them, You may make less isk per hour on bounties (because, for instance, aproaching something 30 km away in a battlship takes a moment), but You bring more minerals to local market, and this way, make life easier for industrialists, and when they have easier life, they can build more ships for soliders, who are defending Your country (even if it's hard nowadays). If owner is near, its however nice to ask first.
Same counts for ore, if some ore is left alone in belt, miner probably had some problems of security nature, may have lost ship or just had to run, more ore for alliance is still good.
But in this case, its better to wait 5 minutes, maybe the owner was mining solo and now is comming with his industrial.
In empire, its very good to steal ore from pilots obvioulsly controlled by some external inteligence, sansha nation or even a rogue drone hive - they are distinguishable by acting like automatons, never saying a word and never reacting for thievery. They are half-humans working for obviously hostile entity that cybernetically enslaves people - if You can ilmit its success, thats better for all.
Still in empire, taking someones combat loot is considered considdered agression by concord, and indeed, usually is a bad thing.
Pilots are responsible for they corp members, in lesser degree for alliance members, but it looks diffrent in diffrent alliances. In some cases, there are specialised security forces, in others, in case of danger, everyone capable shuld grab arms and defend his homeland and allies. Alliance as whole, naturally, is morally obliged to help most important allies in need.
Noone is responsible for safety of neutral pilots, atacked by neutral entities. Helping them is the matter of personal good will and inteligence.
Saving neutrals from hands of enemies is more strategic then moral action in nature. When enemies have hands full killing someone, they are easier targets.
Pirating is crime by definition, but attacking enemy convoys is a diffrent thing. If a certain area is clearly defined as restricted for neutrals, killing neutrals is defence, not piracy, althou its nice to warn and give 1 minute to run away if there is a good chance that the neutral is really a lost neutral, not enemy spy.
Killing pod is a crime in empire, evil in deep space and natural thing to do in war.
Smuggling illegal goods is a crimy punishable by concord, but what is legal is defined by empires.
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Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2006.07.21 22:42:00 -
[13]
I have often found the degree to which most people believe non-secure containers may be considered their possession to be amusing. To attempt to assign ownership to something that is placed where others may readily access it is simply stupidity. This applies to any container assigned by tag to a given pilot, whether it be deposited by a jettison or other means.
Imagine that you are walking down a street with no one else around and you happen upon something valuable in your path (a watch, ISK, etc.). Naturally, you would pick this item up. But then someone you had not seen before yells across the street at you, claiming that the item you have just acquired was theirs. At this point, the assignment of ownership is not clear. You may give the item to this person, or you may keep it. The key, however, is that you acquired this item not from theft, but from the ground where it had lain unattended. Now some people would feel that the ôrightö thing to do would be to give this item to the person claiming to be its previous owner, but others would have no problem with refusing this objector. In the end, however, the item is now in your possession and if you do not choose to give this item away freely then the person attempting to claim it must accept this, or try to take it from you.
If you are unable to prevent someone from looting a can with your tag on it, and even further are unable to reacquire that which they have taken, then the item was more theirs than it was yours to begin with.
P.S. I am confused about your posts Shadow. If your first impulse upon seeing this opportunity to take your neighboring minorÆs can was to do so, then perhaps you are better suited for the life of a criminal than you will allow yourself to admit?
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Tomahawk Bliss
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Posted - 2006.07.22 01:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
Naturally, you would pick this item up. But then someone you had not seen before yells across the street at you, claiming that the item you have just acquired was theirs. At this point, the assignment of ownership is not clear.
er cans have names and ownership automatically assigned. miss that did you?
I enjoy using cans as free combat time, I don't see the problem with the current system by concord. its fun, and people can defend themselves if they really want...though i can't imagine empire ore being worth enough to bother. Any ore worth anything is where you can defend it anyway. there is no problem.
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Van Cleef
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.22 03:32:00 -
[15]
I dont mine, but if you happen to take one of my cans, and you end up flashing to me - I will destroy your ship.
Taking what does not belong to you is still theft. Call it abandoned property or whatever you want, but when you exit your ship in spacedock, and there is no one in it, it still belongs to you, you didn't abandon it. If you didn't mine the ore, dont take the ore.
Simple fact - nothing in life is free.
Your constant whinning about it is getting very annoying.
------------------------------------------------
CEO and Admiral of the Fleet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
Serve the State
Join Channel CAINCOM |
Unuthiel
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.22 14:32:00 -
[16]
Quote:
In the end, however, the item is now in your possession and if you do not choose to give this item away freely then the person attempting to claim it must accept this, or try to take it from you.
Or, if they have evidence it is in fact their property, they call a cop, at which point you give it back, or get arrested for theft, whether or not you stole it in the first place.
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Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2006.07.22 15:39:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss
er cans have names and ownership automatically assigned. miss that did you?
I enjoy using cans as free combat time, I don't see the problem with the current system by concord. its fun, and people can defend themselves if they really want...though i can't imagine empire ore being worth enough to bother. Any ore worth anything is where you can defend it anyway. there is no problem.
Cans do, but the items within them do not 
And would you expect to be able to place boxes with a little labels on them in the open claiming them as yours, without them disappearing as quickly as they were seen? If something is not in your ship or in a station hanger designated to you, then it does not belong to you.
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Tomahawk Bliss
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Posted - 2006.07.22 16:19:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
Cans do, but the items within them do not
Your metaphor still doesnÆt work.
You said you picked something up and you didnÆt know who owned it. A can is named and the ore the pilot is dumping into would be like cash in a wallet that has an ID.
Bad metaphor, you canÆt argue that you donÆt know whose ore is in the can. Not saying it matters if you take the ore, just that you canÆt pretend you donÆt know you are stealing.
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Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2006.07.22 20:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
Cans do, but the items within them do not
Your metaphor still doesnÆt work.
You said you picked something up and you didnÆt know who owned it. A can is named and the ore the pilot is dumping into would be like cash in a wallet that has an ID.
Bad metaphor, you canÆt argue that you donÆt know whose ore is in the can. Not saying it matters if you take the ore, just that you canÆt pretend you donÆt know you are stealing.
Actually, I only said that no one else was around.
You are getting too caught up on that part of the metaphor though. My point is that if you leave something where others may get it, then that is your fault. For them to return it is an act of moral integrity, but not somethint you should rely on or even expect.
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Shai 'Hulud
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2006.07.22 20:08:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Shai ''Hulud on 22/07/2006 20:09:31
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
Cans do, but the items within them do not
Your metaphor still doesnÆt work.
You said you picked something up and you didnÆt know who owned it. A can is named and the ore the pilot is dumping into would be like cash in a wallet that has an ID.
Bad metaphor, you canÆt argue that you donÆt know whose ore is in the can. Not saying it matters if you take the ore, just that you canÆt pretend you donÆt know you are stealing.
Actually, I only said that no one else was around.
You are getting too caught up on that part of the metaphor though. My point is: if you leave something where others may get it, then that is your fault. For them to return it is an act of moral integrity, but not something you should rely on or even expect.
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Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.07.22 20:26:00 -
[21]
I routinely pick up the litter in asteroid belts from battleship pilots who can't be bothered to collect their loot. When you kill things from 80km away, have a tractor beam that reaches 20km and fly about 110m/s, there's a lot of junk left floating. I zip by and scavenge it, then melt it down and either build stuff out of it or sell the minerals. I get a lot of criminal flags that way, but it never escalates into a conflict, because the rightful owner isn't in local.
The flag decides whether or not you can be shot at, it has nothing to do with ethics.
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Mydol
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.24 03:46:00 -
[22]
Despit what others may say, Ore stealing is cool and quite entertaining. You however whine way too much and should have your pod blown up for being a baby about it.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.24 08:41:00 -
[23]
Quote:
The flag decides whether or not you can be shot at, it has nothing to do with ethics.
Well, it has something to do with ethics, namely it tries to capture the real definition of theft. It is not 100 percent certain - for example, it is not possible to give someone persmission to take your loot without them being flagged to your corporation - but it is an effort to that direction.
Laws are often a compromise like that, between the true definition that takes into account each and every circumstance, and the bureacracy needed to track those circumstances to make decisions.
These days it seems our governments are erring on the side of ease of bureaucracy. The decision of the Republic to ban all slave transports is another recent example of this.
Peace in a pod - Liberty Network
Gradient is hiring
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