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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Sasha Nyemtsov
46
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Posted - 2014.08.24 07:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
The Accusation
First part of James 315's closely argued evisceration of the real threat to EVE.
6':11GÇ¥ audio recording by Sasha Nyemtsov, just uploaded to SoundCloud.
If you'd like to discuss the contents of this particular audio file, I entreat you to do so in a mature and reasonable manner. Hysteria helps no-one.
The Accusation www.minerbumping.com |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1516
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Posted - 2014.08.24 14:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Completely agree with James 315. Epic Space Cat |
Emicarn Lothlorn
Eagle Minining and Salvage
0
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Posted - 2014.08.24 19:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Can't say I completely agree, it was an interesting listen however. I have no doubt the bot miners are lobbying for a reduction in PVP in highsec and more resource types put there.
Personally, as a primary industrial player, I don't agree that high sec mining is 'killing eve.' I imagine some day I'm going to get killed again, probably will tick me off, but that's the game. It keeps me in money to train skills I need to move into more violent pursuits...
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Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
843
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Posted - 2014.08.24 20:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Completely agree with James 315.
Yeah.
At first I was somewhat ambivelant about it, but with the flood of imbeciles coming over from WoW and other games (but mainly Wow...) it has pretty much come to this. Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5934
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Posted - 2014.08.24 21:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
I wouldn't go so far as to say 'highsec miners' are the issue. It's a pretty broad generalization used to target a bunch of loud people. Also you guys are starting to get pretty creepy with your role play. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee & Grammar Gestapo. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3463
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Posted - 2014.08.24 22:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
This was one of the finest threads on the EVE forums, and actually was one of the things that got me started playing (someone I knew from another online game linked it to me as a joke, 'hey check this out, best gamer forum rant ever', and it meant that I then tried EVE for a second time and now, a couple of years later, I have two accounts).
These voiceovers are pure gold. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=366607 - Gank incursion runners, win prizes! August 26-Sept 30. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Tolkaz Khamsi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.08.24 23:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think a more accurate way to state the problem is, "Mining is a broken mechanic, but it is so central to the economy of Eve that CCP doesn't dare fool with it much". In hindsight I think CCP understands that mining really needed to be a passive rather than active mechanic -- in fact, I think they applied the lessons they learned with mining to the PI mechanic.
Mining combines the worst aspects of all resource-gathering game mechanics: it is a mechanical, repetitive task that takes place at fixed points in the game world and requires little skill but much time to perform. Eve's mining mechanic cries out for automation -- extensive use of alts and outright botting are inevitable. Tedious, un-fun, but absolutely essential to the game: that's Eve's mining system for you.
Why has such a lousy gaming mechanic persisted for so long? After all, Eve's central mining mechanic is little changed since Eve's launch a decade ago. We've gotten better ships, but essentially the game is the same: warp to belt, point lasers at rocks, then stare with glazed eyes at the screen as your ore-hold fills up. Lather, rinse, repeat. Year after year people complain about how boring and dumb mining is, and year after year CCP does nothing about it. Why? Because Eve's economy would collapse without a daily influx of huge amounts of asteroid ore. Huge amounts. There aren't enough human miners in the game to keep up the flow of ore needed. So botting, while never actually sanctioned, has been more or less accepted as a necessary evil -- as long as the botters don't make it too obvious.
I'm not sure what to propose at this point. If CCP were going to fool with the mining mechanic, they'd have done it by now. I think they're afraid of totally wrecking the economy if they try to change mining too much; any substantial change to mining risks interrupting the flow of ore, which in turn risks interrupting the flow of minerals for ship-building. If I had my way, I'd make mining more like PI where you set up your arrays, turn them on, and let them run.
I dislike botting because it's actually an indicator of a broken game. I don't have any huge moral beef with it apart from the way it disadvantages players who don't bot. But Eve's mining mechanic is so dreadfully tedious and un-fun that automating the activity is the only way to engage in it without going insane.
tl;dr version: botting is the only sane way to deal with Eve's horribly broken mining mechanic. If CCP wants to end botting, they need to change how mining is done, at a fundamental level. |
Leto Thule
Fleet-Jump Surely You're Joking
1143
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Posted - 2014.08.25 00:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:I think a more accurate way to state the problem is, "Mining is a broken mechanic, but it is so central to the economy of Eve that CCP doesn't dare fool with it much". In hindsight I think CCP understands that mining really needed to be a passive rather than active mechanic -- in fact, I think they applied the lessons they learned with mining to the PI mechanic.
Mining combines the worst aspects of all resource-gathering game mechanics: it is a mechanical, repetitive task that takes place at fixed points in the game world and requires little skill but much time to perform. Eve's mining mechanic cries out for automation -- extensive use of alts and outright botting are inevitable. Tedious, un-fun, but absolutely essential to the game: that's Eve's mining system for you.
Why has such a lousy gaming mechanic persisted for so long? After all, Eve's central mining mechanic is little changed since Eve's launch a decade ago. We've gotten better ships, but essentially the game is the same: warp to belt, point lasers at rocks, then stare with glazed eyes at the screen as your ore-hold fills up. Lather, rinse, repeat. Year after year people complain about how boring and dumb mining is, and year after year CCP does nothing about it. Why? Because Eve's economy would collapse without a daily influx of huge amounts of asteroid ore. Huge amounts. There aren't enough human miners in the game to keep up the flow of ore needed. So botting, while never actually sanctioned, has been more or less accepted as a necessary evil -- as long as the botters don't make it too obvious.
I'm not sure what to propose at this point. If CCP were going to fool with the mining mechanic, they'd have done it by now. I think they're afraid of totally wrecking the economy if they try to change mining too much; any substantial change to mining risks interrupting the flow of ore, which in turn risks interrupting the flow of minerals for ship-building. If I had my way, I'd make mining more like PI where you set up your arrays, turn them on, and let them run.
I dislike botting because it's actually an indicator of a broken game. I don't have any huge moral beef with it apart from the way it disadvantages players who don't bot. But Eve's mining mechanic is so dreadfully tedious and un-fun that automating the activity is the only way to engage in it without going insane.
tl;dr version: botting is the only sane way to deal with Eve's horribly broken mining mechanic. If CCP wants to end botting, they need to change how mining is done, at a fundamental level.
I disagree. Boring it may be, but if you want your resources you need to work for them. I don't think it was suppose to be FUN. You want to build? Your gonna have to mine.
I don't like the notion of automated mining either. How would that be stopped by an adversary? I ask because destroying infrastructure is a real objective.
Leave mining alone. It has worked for ten years, its fine. Killboard
https://zkillboard.com/character/90841161/
Ripard Teg sucks. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5939
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 01:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:tl;dr version: botting is the only sane way to deal with Eve's horribly broken mining mechanic. If CCP wants to end botting, they need to change how mining is done, at a fundamental level.
Some people actually enjoy mining because they find it relaxing or they like feeling as though they're contributing to something or they're stoned. Who are you to imply that they're insane for not botting? This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee & Grammar Gestapo. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9087
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Posted - 2014.08.25 01:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:tl;dr version: botting is the only sane way to deal with Eve's horribly broken mining mechanic. If CCP wants to end botting, they need to change how mining is done, at a fundamental level. Some people actually enjoy mining because they find it relaxing or they like feeling as though they're contributing to something or they're stoned. Who are you to imply that they're insane for not botting?
For my part, I mostly just enjoy killing them. Mining is an activity I quite frankly could not force myself to do, and I have tried in order to see the other side, but I just cannot. The only reason I have that skill trained at all right now is because some of them make good bait.
I don't particularly mind if people mine, but when the obvious results of mining come at them and they complain, that's when I think that they're out of line.
"Mining is boring", well no ****.
"I can't defend against gankers!" See above, you chose to fly a non combat ship.
To me, the game is what it is, and it's all about choices and consequences. Make one, live with the other. And most importantly ACCEPT the other. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
Clean Up Local 2014.-á |
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Leto Thule
Fleet-Jump Surely You're Joking
1143
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 02:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
To me, the game is what it is, and it's all about choices and consequences. Make one, live with the other. And most importantly ACCEPT the other.
Motherfucking boom.
Killboard
https://zkillboard.com/character/90841161/
Ripard Teg sucks. |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
148
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 03:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
100% Agreement here
Honestly in my opinion just remove high sec rocks that arent scordite and veldspar, leave rarer ores in site spawns, move ice belts between systems so they arent static and redistribute the loss throughout low and null sec ( especially mexallon ) 1.0 - 0.8 = Veld and Scoridte normal rocks 0.7 - 0.6 = +5% rocks 0.5 = +10% rocks and more frequent anom spawns
Leaves miners with decent ISK/Hr but also makes since lore wise since over 11 years large corps would have depleted most of the high highsec mineral and resource reserves forcing operations to move closer to low and null sec. Also provides incentive to move to more dangerous space and discourages AFK mining due to the increased risk factors at play.
Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
148
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 03:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
also large space because weird forum controls and extra swag Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1524
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 04:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mike Adoulin wrote:Xuixien wrote:Completely agree with James 315. Yeah. At first I was somewhat ambivelant about it, but with the flood of imbeciles coming over from WoW and other games (but mainly Wow...) it has pretty much come to this.
Just like the "blue doughnut" (we actually have a black and white cookie but it's close enough) Epic Space Cat |
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
5361
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 11:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sasha Nyemtsov wrote:Hysteria helps no-one.
I beg to differ "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon |
Tolkaz Khamsi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.08.25 12:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Leto Thule wrote:I don't think it was suppose to be FUN.
You do realize that EVE is a game, right? It's not a second job. (Or at least, it shouldn't be.)
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5949
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 12:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:These voiceovers are pure gold.
Yeah that's like the one saving grace. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee & Grammar Gestapo. |
Tolkaz Khamsi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 12:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:100% Agreement here
Honestly in my opinion just remove high sec rocks that arent scordite and veldspar, leave rarer ores in site spawns, move ice belts between systems so they arent static and redistribute the loss throughout low and null sec ( especially mexallon ) 1.0 - 0.8 = Veld and Scoridte normal rocks 0.7 - 0.6 = +5% rocks 0.5 = +10% rocks and more frequent anom spawns
Leaves miners with decent ISK/Hr but also makes since lore wise since over 11 years large corps would have depleted most of the high highsec mineral and resource reserves forcing operations to move closer to low and null sec. Also provides incentive to move to more dangerous space and discourages AFK mining due to the increased risk factors at play.
I don't think the problem is miner ISK/hr; the problem is sufficient supply of minerals from ore. If you remove Pyrox and Kernite from high, for example, the supply of isogen, mexallon, and nocxium would plummet (and the cost would then skyrocket). It would cripple the EVE economy because no one in their right mind is going to mine in lowsec. Forget the crazy profit you'd make off the rarer minerals; you wouldn't survive long enough to capitalize on the opportunity. And the logistics of moving that ore to hisec (even with the new compression array) would eat up a lot of your profit. Outcome? Miners would still be in high because Veldspar has always been the best hisec ore to mine for ISK, but the game economy would tank.
If you move pyrox, kernite, and omber to random anomalies only, it would have the same crippling effect -- logistics would make the ISK/hr calculation untenable, supply would drop, and prices for the minerals would skyrocket. Good for the miners, maybe, but not so good for the game.
To paraphrase Dune, "the ore must flow". The ore/mineral pipeline must be kept full at all times. Eve's entire economy depends on it. Every single aspect of Eve depends on the ready and ample supply of minerals processed from ore. If you interrupt that supply, you run the risk of breaking the game.
Hisec miners aren't the problem; they're a symptom of the problem, which is a busted game mechanic.
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Sorao Soreen
Unnamed Account In The Bahamas
33
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Posted - 2014.08.25 13:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
I defo think ice belts should be a random spawn in hi sec anywhere in each region of space. Would **** over the is boxers are setup in each ice system with a couple t down timer from the time the last roid was popped. |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1524
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 13:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
The problem with mining is the unbalanced risk/reward factor. Why mine in scary, inconvenient NullSec or WH's when you make only a few mil/hr less in the near absolute safety of HiSec?
I wrote a blog about this on Pod Born. As far as the mechanics of mining itself... I see no way to improve it at this time, and I've dedicated as much time on the subject as I'm willing to (for now). Epic Space Cat |
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Sasha Nyemtsov
48
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Posted - 2014.08.25 13:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hysterical!
Of course, I meant 'Hysteria in an Eve Online Forum Thread tends to obscure otherwise well-made points'. Thanks for the injection of succinct humour though.
www.minerbumping.com |
Captain Brace
Strong Erections Construction Company Honorable Third Party
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 13:46:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say 'highsec miners' are the issue. It's a pretty broad generalization used to target a bunch of loud people. Also you guys are starting to get pretty creepy with your role play.
So weird, so creepy. It all just seems like way too much effort. |
Gadon Longstar
State War Academy Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2014.08.25 13:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
James 315 is the biggest threat to EVE. If you think about the situation properly without being delusional, it's the only conclusion to come to.
He is responsible for several dozen unsubscribed accounts, perhaps over 100.
How many people have subscribed because of him by comparison? A couple dozen? loyalanon himself admitted they couldn't find any extra bodies for the alliance tournament if it was needed, so clearly it's not much more than that.
The worst part about James 315 is that he's created a very "us vs us" culture within EVE. It used to be us vs them. Them being the non-EVE MMO gamers.
James 315 has turned high-sec into an elementary school playground and it's killing the game.
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
5361
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 14:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Gadon Longstar wrote:James 315 has turned high-sec into an elementary school playground and it's killing the game.
What James is doing is new. EVE is dying. Creating content is bad.
Very short post to have 3 baldface lies in it. Good job on the concision. "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5957
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 14:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
Gadon Longstar wrote:James 315 is the biggest threat to EVE. If you think about the situation properly without being delusional, it's the only conclusion to come to.
He is responsible for several dozen unsubscribed accounts, perhaps over 100.
How many people have subscribed because of him by comparison? A couple dozen? loyalanon himself admitted they couldn't find any extra bodies for the alliance tournament if it was needed, so clearly it's not much more than that.
The worst part about James 315 is that he's created a very "us vs us" culture within EVE. It used to be us vs them. Them being the non-EVE MMO gamers.
James 315 has turned high-sec into an elementary school playground and it's killing the game.
To be fair those hundreds of people probably would have quit soon anyway. Blaming the guy who rallied people behind him to gank & bump miners is just a convenient excuse for you to somehow validate your reasoning. Also NPC corp alt created to call people names, lmao. This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee & Grammar Gestapo. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Unleashed Pestilence
959
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Gadon Longstar wrote:James 315 is the biggest threat to EVE. If you think about the situation properly without being delusional, it's the only conclusion to come to.
He is responsible for several dozen unsubscribed accounts, perhaps over 100.
How many people have subscribed because of him by comparison? A couple dozen? loyalanon himself admitted they couldn't find any extra bodies for the alliance tournament if it was needed, so clearly it's not much more than that.
The worst part about James 315 is that he's created a very "us vs us" culture within EVE. It used to be us vs them. Them being the non-EVE MMO gamers.
James 315 has turned high-sec into an elementary school playground and it's killing the game.
I subscribed because of James 315, Erotica 1, and Psychotic Monk, and I know many people that can say the same. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
302
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
I think the real threat is the players who live in hisec, choose to do nothing remotely related to in-space PvP, and then whine to CCP about the fact that game mechanics don't conform exactly to their limited, other-MMO-inspired play-style.
EvE is a PvP game. Everyone vs. Everyone. Don't like it? There's the biomass button.
Yes, this has driven some players out. But it's also what makes EvE unique, and it is what will keep it alive in the long run.
Gadon Longstar wrote:James 315 is the biggest threat to EVE. If you think about the situation properly without being delusional, it's the only conclusion to come to.
He is responsible for several dozen unsubscribed accounts, perhaps over 100.
How many people have subscribed because of him by comparison? A couple dozen? loyalanon himself admitted they couldn't find any extra bodies for the alliance tournament if it was needed, so clearly it's not much more than that.
The worst part about James 315 is that he's created a very "us vs us" culture within EVE. It used to be us vs them. Them being the non-EVE MMO gamers.
James 315 has turned high-sec into an elementary school playground and it's killing the game.
Says the player posting from a week-and-a-half-old forum alt. At least James 315 and CODE. members post openly. You should try it sometime.
Also, check eveoffline.com for the current number of total subscriptions. I know they're not all active, but when you look at it in that context, 100 is an absurdly piddly number. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
Syssa Binchiette
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:I think the real threat is the players who live in hisec, choose to do nothing remotely related to in-space PvP, .
It's almost like they are playing how they want. Like in a sandbox...
Yes I took only part of your quote because that sentiment is widely expressed and hypocritical. Welcome to the preschool sandbox |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
302
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:26:00 -
[29] - Quote
Syssa Binchiette wrote:Bronson Hughes wrote:I think the real threat is the players who live in hisec, choose to do nothing remotely related to in-space PvP, . It's almost like they are playing how they want. Like in a sandbox... Yes I took only part of your quote because that sentiment is widely expressed and hypocritical. Ignoring the part where I actually say that the problem is people whining to CCP about their self-limited play-style, and not actually their self-limited play-style, pretty much undermines your point about hypocrisy.
Please, quote my statements in context, or don't quote them at all. Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
Xuixien
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
1528
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Confirming: James 315, Erotica 1, Psychotic Monk, Cannibal Kane... these players kept me subbed when I was bored, lost, and on the verge of unsubbing. Epic Space Cat |
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